Patterns and Meaning in Music

Any topics primarily focused on metaphysics can be discussed here, in a generally casual way, where conversations may take unexpected turns.

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Lou Gold
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Re: Patterns and Meaning in Music

Post by Lou Gold »

AshvinP wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:07 pm
Soul_of_Shu wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:24 pm I'm curious, does anyone know of an example in nature of what we would recognize as music that is not being expressed through what we would recognize as a conscious agent?
We practically don't re-cognize anything as a conscious agent, so yes I can think of many examples : ) Pythagoras spoke of the music in the movement of the celestial spheres. This is literally true in my view.

But I suspect you are trying to highlight that ideational agency underlies all such Macrocosmic music, as it does microcosmic human music, and that is exactly right. Lou and Martin don't realize they have created dualism of Nature and man above. The human ideational spirit is not other than Nature and, as the Emerson quote on the other thread suggested, is a microcosmic expression of Nature's evolution into self-awareness. Humanity is the stage in Nature's evolution in which it awakens to itself and comes to know, appreciate, and make consciously manifest its heavenly choir.
Lou and Martin don't realize they have created dualism of Nature and man above.

NO!!! Ashvin. I have not created a dualism. I have reported the dualism common under the dominant anthropocentric hierarchical paradigm. I see/hear/feel Mitakuye Oyasin (All My Relations). There is a clear-and-present reason why sitting at the seashore (like "forest bathing") is a calming and healing experience. It is not the dualism of either-rain-or-shine but the reality of rain-and-shine.

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AshvinP
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Re: Patterns and Meaning in Music

Post by AshvinP »

Lou Gold wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:46 pm
AshvinP wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:07 pm
Soul_of_Shu wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:24 pm I'm curious, does anyone know of an example in nature of what we would recognize as music that is not being expressed through what we would recognize as a conscious agent?
We practically don't re-cognize anything as a conscious agent, so yes I can think of many examples : ) Pythagoras spoke of the music in the movement of the celestial spheres. This is literally true in my view.

But I suspect you are trying to highlight that ideational agency underlies all such Macrocosmic music, as it does microcosmic human music, and that is exactly right. Lou and Martin don't realize they have created dualism of Nature and man above. The human ideational spirit is not other than Nature and, as the Emerson quote on the other thread suggested, is a microcosmic expression of Nature's evolution into self-awareness. Humanity is the stage in Nature's evolution in which it awakens to itself and comes to know, appreciate, and make consciously manifest its heavenly choir.
Lou and Martin don't realize they have created dualism of Nature and man above.

NO!!! Ashvin. I have not created a dualism. I have reported the dualism common under the dominant anthropocentric hierarchical paradigm. I see/hear/feel Mitakuye Oyasin (All My Relations). There is a clear-and-present reason why sitting at the seashore (like "forest bathing") is a calming and healing experience. It is not the dualism of either-rain-or-shine but the reality of rain-and-shine.

By "anthropocentric", you mean the ideational activity of human beings. And you want to set up Nature and natural phenomena in opposition to that ideational activity, instead of perceiving the latter evolving from the former (which is what you call "heirarchical"). That is dualism. Let me quote Emerson again:

"When, following the invisible steps of thought, we come to inquire, Whence is matter? & Whereto? many truths arise to us out of the recesses of consciousness. We learn that spirit creates; that behind nature, throughout nature, spirit is present; one & not compound, it does not act upon us from without in space & time, but spiritually, or through ourselves: therefore, that spirit, the Supreme Being, does not build up nature around us, but puts it forth through us, as the life of the tree puts forth new branches & leaves through the pores of the old."
“It is your presumption that freedom is something which you already possess that ensures that you will remain in chains."
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Lou Gold
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Re: Patterns and Meaning in Music

Post by Lou Gold »

Lou Gold wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:46 pm
AshvinP wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:07 pm
Soul_of_Shu wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:24 pm I'm curious, does anyone know of an example in nature of what we would recognize as music that is not being expressed through what we would recognize as a conscious agent?
We practically don't re-cognize anything as a conscious agent, so yes I can think of many examples : ) Pythagoras spoke of the music in the movement of the celestial spheres. This is literally true in my view.

But I suspect you are trying to highlight that ideational agency underlies all such Macrocosmic music, as it does microcosmic human music, and that is exactly right. Lou and Martin don't realize they have created dualism of Nature and man above. The human ideational spirit is not other than Nature and, as the Emerson quote on the other thread suggested, is a microcosmic expression of Nature's evolution into self-awareness. Humanity is the stage in Nature's evolution in which it awakens to itself and comes to know, appreciate, and make consciously manifest its heavenly choir.
Lou and Martin don't realize they have created dualism of Nature and man above.

NO!!! Ashvin. I have not created a dualism. I have reported the dualism common under the dominant anthropocentric hierarchical paradigm. I see/hear/feel Mitakuye Oyasin (All My Relations). There is a clear-and-present reason why sitting at the seashore (like "forest bathing") is a calming and healing experience. It is not the dualism of either-rain-or-shine but the reality of rain-and-shine.


Ashvin,

I suspect that part of the communication problem, and quite relevant in context of the cultural dimension discussed in this thread, is that you and I have been immersed in different ecologies and spiritual practices. For example, I have recently lived for many years in a city in Brazil's western Acre State, which is quite different from living in a city in Virginia. For example, yesterday (24 November) is the officially designated Day of Ayahuasca Culture, which is considered as part of the very diverse Acre cultural 'normal'.

Image

With respect for your path, I truly wish that you might at least soften your arrogant view that you realize stuff that others do not. There are many forms of 'spiritual science' in the fantastic magnificence of the Great Mysteriousness. I've got 25 years and thousands of doses of Daime, cleaning my mentality of toxic thought patterns in order to yet incompletely be with an Awareness that you call Thinking. My spiritual work allows me to grok the Truth in much that you say without seeing it as better-or-worse, higher-or-lower or whatever else arises from dualist comparisons. I'm not so interested in the mote in the eyes of others as much as clearing the obfuscations within my own. As George Orwell famously said, “To see what is in front of one’s nose needs a constant struggle.” That there are many ways to conduct this struggle is part of the Beneficence of a Living God.
Last edited by Lou Gold on Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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AshvinP
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Re: Patterns and Meaning in Music

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Lou Gold wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:48 pm I'm not so interested in the mote in the eyes of others as much as clearing the obfuscations within my own.
Sorry Lou, but I just find the above disigenuous, along with most of your claims not to "do philosophy". When you say:

"Of course, under the dominant anthropocentric modern basis, "conscious agent" seems to imply human-like. But in the true non-pejorative animistic indigenous view, the sea, the mountains, the earth are beings or subjects with whom to relate."

I see you putting forth a specific critique of philosophy of evolving spiritual activity, which is entirely imcompatible with animism. But I realize you are in a stage of your life where arguing back and forth isn't your priority, so I can respect that. I am not going to force you to debate me. I am just putting forth a few responses for the benefit of others who may be following.
“It is your presumption that freedom is something which you already possess that ensures that you will remain in chains."
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Lou Gold
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Re: Patterns and Meaning in Music

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AshvinP wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:55 pm
Lou Gold wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:48 pm I'm not so interested in the mote in the eyes of others as much as clearing the obfuscations within my own.
Sorry Lou, but I just find the above disigenuous, along with most of your claims not to "do philosophy". When you say:

"Of course, under the dominant anthropocentric modern basis, "conscious agent" seems to imply human-like. But in the true non-pejorative animistic indigenous view, the sea, the mountains, the earth are beings or subjects with whom to relate."

I see you putting forth a specific critique of philosophy of evolving spiritual activity, which is entirely imcompatible with animism. But I realize you are in a stage of your life where arguing back and forth isn't your priority, so I can respect that. I am not going to force you to debate me. I am just putting forth a few responses for the benefit of others who may be following.
What you seem to me to refuse to accept is that animism is ALSO evolving. You seem to me to be clinging to a pejorative naming given by European anthropologists and philosophers who were definitely anthropocentric. You might want to check out David Abram: "Becoming Animal" for an evolving animism.

Like you, "I am just putting forth a few responses for the benefit of others who may be following." It's a BIG club with flowers of awareness blossoming in many glorious ways. Keeping with the musical theme of the thread it's good, I feel, to follow the advice of the young musical genius to
"Sanctify don't Justify", which as Orwell notes requires a constant struggle. Me too! >>> We too!

As JC demonstrates musically there is the possibility of ever-expanding harmonies...

Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love
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Re: Patterns and Meaning in Music

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AshvinP wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:07 pm
Soul_of_Shu wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:24 pm I'm curious, does anyone know of an example in nature of what we would recognize as music that is not being expressed through what we would recognize as a conscious agent?
We practically don't re-cognize anything as a conscious agent, so yes I can think of many examples : ) Pythagoras spoke of the music in the movement of the celestial spheres. This is literally true in my view.

But I suspect you are trying to highlight that ideational agency underlies all such Macrocosmic music, as it does microcosmic human music, and that is exactly right. Lou and Martin don't realize they have created dualism of Nature and man above. The human ideational spirit is not other than Nature and, as the Emerson quote on the other thread suggested, is a microcosmic expression of Nature's evolution into self-awareness. Humanity is the stage in Nature's evolution in which it awakens to itself and comes to know, appreciate, and make consciously manifest its heavenly choir.
Exactly where did i create dualism? (and how?)
"I don't understand." /Unknown
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Re: Patterns and Meaning in Music

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Lou Gold wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:28 pm Keeping with the musical theme of the thread ...
Mea culpa I suppose for not being more articulate about what I'm wishing to express and explore here (perhaps should have opted for the topic-specific section), which is to carry on from Ashvin's essay (linked to above), to make a demonstrable case that music is somehow immanently isomorphic to the fundamental, primal ideation/logos of Mind, as per the mythos that the 'Creator' sings the world into existence. I was also hoping that JeffreyW would chime in to give his take on 'music' being isomorphic to the most fundamental emanations of energy, or not as the case may be, beyond which we dare not ponder. In any case, I'd prefer that the thread not be filled up with re-postings of our favourite tunes.
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
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Re: Patterns and Meaning in Music

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The experience of music reveals to us yet another facet of the Mind-Meaning - its esthetical facet, its Beauty. Which is also inseparable from Love, because it is one thing - Love of Beauty, or Beauty of Love, but more precisely - one Love-Beauty. Music helps us to actually experience it, not just intellectualize about it abstractly.

"Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kanzas anymore" Dorothy
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Lou Gold
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Re: Patterns and Meaning in Music

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Soul_of_Shu wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:35 pm
Lou Gold wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:28 pm Keeping with the musical theme of the thread ...
Mea culpa I suppose for not being more articulate about what I'm wishing to express and explore here (perhaps should have opted for the topic-specific section), which is to carry on from Ashvin's essay (linked to above), to make a demonstrable case that music is somehow immanently isomorphic to the fundamental, primal ideation/logos of Mind, as per the mythos that the 'Creator' sings the world into existence. I was also hoping that JeffreyW would chime in to give his take on 'music' being isomorphic to the most fundamental emanations of energy, or not as the case may be, beyond which we dare not ponder. In any case, I'd prefer that the thread not be filled up with re-postings of our favourite tunes.
Dana,

Sorry that you just think I'm posting favorites. There's a method to my madness related to your, "... as per the mythos that the 'Creator' sings the world into existence." But apologies if it's impolite to connect dots beyond your expectations.

Consider this paragraph from a very brief New Yorker profile of JC...

Collier now has his own Q-like ['Q' referencing Quincy Jones] array of friends. His idea of fun is texting a hundred and fifty of them, as he did in 2019, and saying, “Hey, can you send me a ‘moon’? Just sing the word ‘moon’ on any note in B-flat major.” They did, and he “made a great big wall of them”—a wall including Chris Martin, David Crosby, Merrill Garbus, Kimbra, Chris Thile, Steve Vai, Ty Dolla $ign, and “my mum”—“doused them in reverb,” and “put them in the Notre Dame.” (It was the day of the Notre Dame fire, and he had a reverb preset of the church’s interior.) The resulting version of “Moon River” might have startled Henry Mancini: “Thousands of voices singing together,” and bracingly so; in the final verse, the song “goes into a key that doesn’t exist.” Collier can sound like a Richard Feynman of pop composition. “You can unlock other keys by using physics,” he said. “I cracked open a half key for the final verse of ‘Moon River,’ which is something I’ve been wanting to do for such a long time.”
How Jacob Collier Found a Key That Doesn't Exist

In the MIT documentary on JC, its musical director observes, "Jacob convinces that divinity exists." OK, maybe this is irrelevant. Obviously, I'm not a philosopher.
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Lou Gold
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Re: Patterns and Meaning in Music

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Eugene I wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:06 pm The experience of music reveals to us yet another facet of the Mind-Meaning - its esthetical facet, its Beauty. Which is also inseparable from Love, because it is one thing - Love of Beauty, or Beauty of Love, but more precisely - one Love-Beauty. Music helps us to actually experience it, not just intellectualize about it abstractly.
INDEED!

Thanks for the video.

Perhaps, we should be careful about narrowing Love toward tastes in beauty, which as pointed out in the podcast, can have huge cultural variation (not all easy to grok).
Last edited by Lou Gold on Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love
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