Dissociation

[Andy James]

One of the key points which draws me to this forum is Bernardo's way of explaining the premise of wholeness/consciousness dissociating into a corporeal alter-state of perception. Hope that sentence did him justice and please re-word if it is inaccurate. I am also inspired by the fact that he shares experiential accounts on this topic rather than mere ontological theory.
Following research based experiential 'trips' he infers that the default mode network of the brain (amongst other aspects of the CNS) is relinquished of its loop-like activity and, as a result, is also relieved of its effect; the dissociated alter-state, albeit temporarily.

The question I would like to pose to the forum is whether you think 'experiences' brought about by certain kinds of meditation, plant medicine, etc might sometimes cause immobilisation based survival states rather than insight (awareness of wholeness)? In other words; immobilisation being a physiologic processes causing the nervous system to be short circuited (perhaps to mimic the look of a dead animal and appear unpalatable for a predator).
I mention this because these survival states are also referred to as 'dissociated' states. Only this kind of dissociation is a dissociation from the sensations produced by the dissociated alter-state; i.e. the sense of me (identified self) especially in the face of a life threatening situation.

I suppose what I am asking is whether you think that some people might get confused between the diminishing of the DMN (etc) resulting in the insight of awareness 'itself', compared to the circuit break mechanism (of various aspects of the CNS) which immobilises the organisms physiology (motor and sensory) in the face of danger, whether it is a real threat or an imagined one?

[Starbuck]

Fascinating subject.

At a fundamental level I believe we have an inertial tendency towards what is pleasant or comfortable. People dissociate throughout the day from what is unpleasant. The flip side of that is that the dissociated state is some how considered more pleasant even if that entails it is NOT what it attempting to ignore. Now, we can assume that mind at large is instinctually driven to dissociate in order to experience something it never could otherwise. Equally, the idea that it remains limited as ONE eye, without multiple perspective could stir up unpleasant or uncomfortable mentation (cosmic loneliness?).

Yet, what is preferable for mind at large, is arguably the cause of the alter's suffering, so there is that inverse drive from the altar to dissociate back to the 'womb', which I believe is the underlying cause of addictions. I think this all relates to karma, in avoiding any aspect of reality, we tend to project that out as duality, which just perpetuates the loop. It's the garden of eden all over again. Its also the symbolism of god 'sacrificing' his son for a greater purpose. We have to look at our own suffering, survival fear, vulnerability, and existential threat, and perceive it through the lens of all that is, yet never as a fancy technique to avoid suffering, which will just pull us back in. Life is a broad church with an infinite potential to experience modalities of oneness and separation. It's all a ride, in which the only stakes are the danger of attachment and fear of death. Life is also laced with fractal correspondences, which always lends itself to Bernardo's theories on correspondence and mythology as pointers to the meaning behind it all. Never direct, never incontrovertible, at yet at the same time, utterly pertinent to ultimate and non relative meaning.

[AshvinP]

One of the key points which draws me to this forum is Bernardo's way of explaining the premise of wholeness/consciousness dissociating into a corporeal alter-state of perception. Hope that sentence did him justice and please re-word if it is inaccurate. I am also inspired by the fact that he shares experiential accounts on this topic rather than mere ontological theory.
Following research based experiential 'trips' he infers that the default mode network of the brain (amongst other aspects of the CNS) is relinquished of its loop-like activity and, as a result, is also relieved of its effect; the dissociated alter-state, albeit temporarily.

The question I would like to pose to the forum is whether you think 'experiences' brought about by certain kinds of meditation, plant medicine, etc might sometimes cause immobilisation based survival states rather than insight (awareness of wholeness)? In other words; immobilisation being a physiologic processes causing the nervous system to be short circuited (perhaps to mimic the look of a dead animal and appear unpalatable for a predator).
I mention this because these survival states are also referred to as 'dissociated' states. Only this kind of dissociation is a dissociation from the sensations produced by the dissociated alter-state; i.e. the sense of me (identified self) especially in the face of a life threatening situation.

I suppose what I am asking is whether you think that some people might get confused between the diminishing of the DMN (etc) resulting in the insight of awareness 'itself', compared to the circuit break mechanism (of various aspects of the CNS) which immobilises the organisms physiology (motor and sensory) in the face of danger, whether it is a real threat or an imagined one?

I have no idea, but it seems to me we don't necessarily need to say these things are one or the other. In general, those activities which appear related to evolved instincts seem to have many layers of deep meaning for the human soul. I also don't think we will penetrate very far into such questions without focusing primarily on those meanings. What does it mean to be "dissociated", what does it mean to be only aware of "awareness itself", what does it mean to be physically threatened to the point of immobilization? Those meanings will never be physical mechanisms or equally abstract concepts like "survival" under idealism. I have opinions and speculations about what they may relate to, but not to very useful degree of specificity. I just want to highlight another way of thinking through these phenomenon which materialist science, without any warrant, has appropriated to its exclusive domain.

[AshvinP]

One of the key points which draws me to this forum is Bernardo's way of explaining the premise of wholeness/consciousness dissociating into a corporeal alter-state of perception. Hope that sentence did him justice and please re-word if it is inaccurate. I am also inspired by the fact that he shares experiential accounts on this topic rather than mere ontological theory.
Following research based experiential 'trips' he infers that the default mode network of the brain (amongst other aspects of the CNS) is relinquished of its loop-like activity and, as a result, is also relieved of its effect; the dissociated alter-state, albeit temporarily.

The question I would like to pose to the forum is whether you think 'experiences' brought about by certain kinds of meditation, plant medicine, etc might sometimes cause immobilisation based survival states rather than insight (awareness of wholeness)? In other words; immobilisation being a physiologic processes causing the nervous system to be short circuited (perhaps to mimic the look of a dead animal and appear unpalatable for a predator).
I mention this because these survival states are also referred to as 'dissociated' states. Only this kind of dissociation is a dissociation from the sensations produced by the dissociated alter-state; i.e. the sense of me (identified self) especially in the face of a life threatening situation.

I suppose what I am asking is whether you think that some people might get confused between the diminishing of the DMN (etc) resulting in the insight of awareness 'itself', compared to the circuit break mechanism (of various aspects of the CNS) which immobilises the organisms physiology (motor and sensory) in the face of danger, whether it is a real threat or an imagined one?

I have no idea, but it seems to me we don't necessarily need to say these things are one or the other. In general, those activities which appear related to evolved instincts seem to have many layers of deep meaning for the human soul. I also don't think we will penetrate very far into such questions without focusing primarily on those meanings. What does it mean to be "dissociated", what does it mean to be only aware of "awareness itself", what does it mean to be physically threatened to the point of immobilization? Those meanings will never be physical mechanisms or equally abstract concepts like "survival" under idealism. I have opinions and speculations about what they may relate to, but not to very useful degree of specificity. I just want to highlight another way of thinking through these phenomenon which materialist science, without any warrant, has appropriated to its exclusive domain.

I will offer a speculative connection since we are on metaphysical speculations forum, but just with the caveat that we are not required to remain at the level of abstract speculation on matters of idealist (for me synonymous with "spiritual") science.

Approaching the contentless threshold of "awareness itself", what Hegel calls "pure being", is often described as terrifying void, especially when approached without any concrete knowledge of what one may experience and why beforehand. So in that sense, approaching it naively may indeed elicit the immobilisation instinct. That is the spiritual meaning of approaching physical death itself, and without any knowledge of a way back or way through, so to speak, no possibility or fight or flight in this nearly timeless realm, it would manifest as persistent threat. Yet there is a way through, just as there is a way to experience afterlife between death and rebirth with some concrete understanding. That is my speculation.

[Toto Gale]

I apologize now if this post is out of bounds. I carefully read the posting rules, and I suspect this post is close to out of bounds. Since this is my second post, my experience in meeting group expectations is very limited.

Having just watched the course, I have some initial thoughts about Dissociation.

1. My 48 years of experience with hallucinogens consistently produce a sense of oneness with all that is (universal consciousness). I have attributed that to my Ego being anesthetized. I think in the language of this group it represents a reduction in Boundary.

2. There are many available powers of the trance state. These are articulated in a book over 100 years old, that is available for free. (Search on Kindle: Clairvoyance and Occult Powers by Swami Panchadasi.)

3. When I carefully watch my Self, I am aware of many mini-trance states while I am awake. I wonder if this is true of all humans, and they are just not meta-conscious of it?

4. This may really get me in trouble ... I have studied religions for decades and had an enlightenment experience with a guru (called Gyan). Now I am pondering how religions have metaphors for Dissociation. For example, the "Father, Son and Holy Ghost" can be thought of as a metaphor for universal consciousness, alter-consciousness, and the means of "impinging" (did I use the correct terms of this group?). The story of the Prodigal Son can be seen as a metaphor for Dissociation.

5. I have had these Dissociation experiences for years, and I'm glad to be in a group that explains it better than I can.

I am a retired computer scientist (I helped develop the Internet) with a lot of telecommunication experience. But I don't practice science in the area of this group. Rather, I follow the Mystic path. I hope I did not violate the rules with this post.

[Toto Gale]

Since I am skating on thin ice, I may as well add this.

The movie the Wizard of Oz is much like the story of the Prodigal Son. Dorothy enters a trance state and has all her incredible adventures in Oz, and finally wakes up in her true home.

I wonder if the alter-consciousness is actually the meta-trance?

[Eugene I]

One of the key points which draws me to this forum is Bernardo's way of explaining the premise of wholeness/consciousness dissociating into a corporeal alter-state of perception. Hope that sentence did him justice and please re-word if it is inaccurate. I am also inspired by the fact that he shares experiential accounts on this topic rather than mere ontological theory.
Following research based experiential 'trips' he infers that the default mode network of the brain (amongst other aspects of the CNS) is relinquished of its loop-like activity and, as a result, is also relieved of its effect; the dissociated alter-state, albeit temporarily.

The question I would like to pose to the forum is whether you think 'experiences' brought about by certain kinds of meditation, plant medicine, etc might sometimes cause immobilisation based survival states rather than insight (awareness of wholeness)? In other words; immobilisation being a physiologic processes causing the nervous system to be short circuited (perhaps to mimic the look of a dead animal and appear unpalatable for a predator).
I mention this because these survival states are also referred to as 'dissociated' states. Only this kind of dissociation is a dissociation from the sensations produced by the dissociated alter-state; i.e. the sense of me (identified self) especially in the face of a life threatening situation.

I suppose what I am asking is whether you think that some people might get confused between the diminishing of the DMN (etc) resulting in the insight of awareness 'itself', compared to the circuit break mechanism (of various aspects of the CNS) which immobilises the organisms physiology (motor and sensory) in the face of danger, whether it is a real threat or an imagined one?

In the human form most of our mental states are limited to the ones allowed by evolutionary developed states shaped by survival. So regarding any spiritual experiences or any altered state of consciousness the same kind of question can be posed: can such experience or state be simply an artifact of a survival mechanism that has been evolutionary developed? Can the acts of creating art or making scientific discoveries or inventions can be accounted by survival mechanisms? I think the answer is "both" - we can only experience mental states that allowed by our survival mechanisms, but within these limits we can still experience a vast range of different conscious states that can bring us important spiritual insights and allow creative acts to happen. IMO reducing the richness of spiritual states and creativity only to survival mechanisms is a very reductionist approach (which is a popular approach in the materialistic evolutionary psychology and cognitive science in our times). As an example, I gained important spiritual insights during a "dissociated" state when I experienced lucid dreamless sleep. That had nothing to do with survival-driven "immobilization" state, yet it was still a state allowed by the functioning of human mind which was a result of evolutionary development.

As an analogy, we can only know about the material universe from what we can observe through astronomical instruments, and the capabilities of the instruments are limited by natural laws, but once they have certain capabilities, they allow us to gain insights into the universe that we could not get without those instruments, and these insights and discoveries have nothing to do with the instruments themselves. Similarly, even if such dissociation states can be explained by the survival-driven immobilization, the spiritual insights that we can gain from such states go much beyond any immobilization or survival.

[AshvinP]

Since I am skating on thin ice, I may as well add this.

The movie the Wizard of Oz is much like the story of the Prodigal Son. Dorothy enters a trance state and has all her incredible adventures in Oz, and finally wakes up in her true home.

I wonder if the alter-consciousness is actually the meta-trance?

TG,

I don't think anything you wrote came even close to violating forum rules, and moreover the points were very insightful. I was just thinking of that parable earlier this morning. These are archetypal narratives in Western culture and therefore show up in a lot of creative works. The archetypes reflect actual spiritual knowledge with symbolic images - in this case, humanity's involution into the world of Maya (differentiated forms which obscure their spiritual origin) and its evolution back towards that spiritual origin through the world of Maya. So we could say our current "alter-consciousness" is a sort of "meta-trance", but a meta-trance which allows for waking up from the trance from within itself.

[AshvinP]

In the human form most of our mental states are limited to the ones allowed by evolutionary developed states shaped by survival. So regarding any spiritual experiences or any altered state of consciousness the same kind of question can be posed: can such experience or state be simply an artifact of a survival mechanism that has been evolutionary developed? Can the acts of creating art or making scientific discoveries or inventions can be accounted by survival mechanisms? I think the answer is "both" - we can only experience mental states that allowed by our survival mechanisms, but within these limits we can still experience a vast range of different conscious states that can bring us important spiritual insights and allow creative acts to happen. IMO reducing the richness of spiritual states and creativity only to survival mechanisms is a very reductionist approach (which is a popular approach in the materialistic evolutionary psychology and cognitive science in our times). As an example, I gained important spiritual insights during a "dissociated" state when I experienced lucid dreamless sleep. That had nothing to do with survival-driven "immobilization" state, yet it was still a state allowed by the functioning of human mind which was a result of evolutionary development.

As an analogy, we can only know about the material universe from what we can observe through astronomical instruments, and the capabilities of the instruments are limited by natural laws, but once they have certain capabilities, they allow us to gain insights into the universe that we could not get without those instruments, and these insights and discoveries have nothing to do with the instruments themselves. Similarly, even if such dissociation states can be explained by the survival-driven immobilization, the spiritual insights that we can gain from such states go much beyond any immobilization or survival.

Isn't the underlined assertion an example of the bolded reductionist approach? I think it may all depend on how we are defining "survival mechanisms". Under idealism, no previous forms of consciousness would be 'lost' to the human soul during the evolutionary process, only obscured by later forms. In a completely ideal reality, those types of hard restrictions from physicalist science simply do not apply anymore.

[Soul_of_Shu]

Since I am skating on thin ice, I may as well add this.

The movie the Wizard of Oz is much like the story of the Prodigal Son. Dorothy enters a trance state and has all her incredible adventures in Oz, and finally wakes up in her true home.

I wonder if the alter-consciousness is actually the meta-trance?

If transgressing the forum's primary intention and focus I will let you know. For the record, I feel that the Wizard of Oz is one if the most insightful esoteric/metaphysical allegories of the modern era.