Christianity and Metaphysics - Jordan Peterson interviews Jonathan Pageau

[AshvinP]

That JP interview with Ferriss raised some more reasons to take the Biblical mythology very seriously. Regardless of what theological conceptions I was shifting to and from as a believer, I never doubted that the scripture was inspired, whatever that means, and perhaps inerrant, to the extent it is framed with the proper axioms. JP described the Cain-Abel story as one about "fratricidal murder with a genocidal twist", all contained in a single paragraph that we could "think about for the rest of our lives". It's a story about "resentment deriving from insufficient sacrifices to God". Just the concepts contained in that one phrase could be unpacked forever.

He also remarks, "if you want to do away with that, go ahead and find something better... good luck". I feel the same way when people suggest the stories are 'outdated' and we need to find a new mythology for the 'post-modern' world. So far, the most powerful stories in the Western world, and perhaps the entire world, with mythological import have all been from the Bible or directly derivative of it. The brightest and most creative writers and philosophers still have not surpassed them. I will consider adopting a new mythological substructure once someone actually comes up with it and can show that it works. It will happen eventually, but I don't think we are even close to that now.

[AshvinP]

He's on a roll with these interviews... this one with Tom Bilyeu:

Is your notion of self-identity independent of social influences? Have you considered how much your identity has been negotiated with others since child-hood in order to be molded to the social norms? Clinical psychologist, Dr. Jordan B. Peterson uncovers the idea of functional identity and ties it to the tendencies you had as a child to self-regulate your behaviors in order to fit in. Your notion of self-identity and ability to leverage beyond the known in a logical landscape that navigates the unknown is anchored to the role you play among your peers. In this episode, you will travel through a conversation with Jordan and Tom that will push your view of peer groups, their role in shaping your identity, and how your responsibilities lie within your willingness to sacrifice and strive for more. Jordan explores the importance of slaying your dragons, and understanding that the ultimate battle is with yourself.

[AshvinP]

Around the 25-26 min. mark, JP has a very interesting insight about solipsism - even if 'you' are the only consciousness in existence, you are still living in a community of individuals because you, as a feeling-thinking being, are stretched across time. That was brought up in the context of the importance of a person establishing their "identity" through their actions. One of the reasons people typically disregard solipsism out of hand is because it appears no one acts as if it is true, since everyone alive continues to think and act towards goals with other people.

As against solipsism it is to be said, in the first place, that it is psychologically impossible to believe, and is rejected in fact even by those who mean to accept it. I once received a letter from an eminent logician, Mrs. Christine Ladd-Franklin, saying that she was a solipsist, and was surprised that there were no others. Coming from a logician and a solipsist, her surprise surprised me.

I wonder if JP's insight serves as an adequate response to Russell's critique?

[SanteriSatama]

Yet, most monotheist believers believe in a solipsist God. Go figure.

[AshvinP]

Yet, most monotheist believers believe in a solipsist God. Go figure.

How do you figure? Most monotheists in the modern era seem to be naïve Cartesian dualists.

[SanteriSatama]

How do you figure? Most monotheists in the modern era seem to be naïve Cartesian dualists.

Definition of metaphysical solipsism is very similar to standard definition of monotheism, from His point of view.

[AshvinP]

How do you figure? Most monotheists in the modern era seem to be naïve Cartesian dualists.

Definition of metaphysical solipsism is very similar to standard definition of monotheism, from His point of view.

Perhaps, if we are limited to conventional logic. With Scott's mumorphic logic, where Ground is not other than Grounded and vice versa, monotheism can be consistent with non-solipsistic idealism.

[Soul_of_Shu]

Even as this may only be of interest to very few here, I found this a fascinating deconstruction of the Peterson/Pageau conversation ...

[AshvinP]

Even as this may only be of interest to very few here, I found this a fascinating deconstruction of the Peterson/Pageau conversation ...

Thanks, Dana. I'm only 15 min. in and these guys are spot on so far. I have been trying to say the same thing for awhile now about JP. Most people just don't appreciate the precision of his speech when dealing with spiritual issues and the depth of his Jungian psychological approach (and BK's new book makes crystal clear just how metaphysically deep Jung went). That is especially true of fundamentalist types, who take his statements about Christianity to mean he is teetering around acceptance of Christ and simply needs someone to shove him across the finish line. That's not what is going on here at all.

[SanteriSatama]

Thanks, Dana. I'm only 15 min. in and these guys are spot on so far. I have been trying to say the same thing for awhile now about JP. Most people just don't appreciate the precision of his speech when dealing with spiritual issues and the depth of his Jungian psychological approach (and BK's new book makes crystal clear just how metaphysically deep Jung went). That is especially true of fundamentalist types, who take his statements about Christianity to mean he is teetering around acceptance of Christ and simply needs someone to shove him across the finish line. That's not what is going on here at all.

Peterson getting raw emotional about synchronicities, and how terrifying they can be (especially in the beginning)... and a commentator asking (rhetorically) "What more could you want from JP?".

As obnoxious as been-there-done-that comments tend to be, it seems that here that level of honesty is necessary, taking that question seriously and telling what I wish for Jordan. Get over it and move on, Jordan. Face your fears, do your own Jesus trip, take the psychadelics already, heal thyself healer, or what ever transformative experiences are on your path. You don't need belief in Christianity to empirically test these: ask and you shall be qiven, form your question and you shall be answered.

He's not now in a place where he can stagnate and stop evolving and learning. He can take (what I consider) the cowards way, become a worshipping believer or some other kind of sanctuary seeker to live an ordinary life without the terrifying spiritual burden, or go full in and face the music, instead of like acting like a cat around hot porrige. Most of all I wish Jordan continues to dance his dance with great style, and of course gets all the time and support he needs to grow and go on.