Christianity and Metaphysics - Jordan Peterson interviews Jonathan Pageau

[AshvinP]

Thanks, Dana. I'm only 15 min. in and these guys are spot on so far. I have been trying to say the same thing for awhile now about JP. Most people just don't appreciate the precision of his speech when dealing with spiritual issues and the depth of his Jungian psychological approach (and BK's new book makes crystal clear just how metaphysically deep Jung went). That is especially true of fundamentalist types, who take his statements about Christianity to mean he is teetering around acceptance of Christ and simply needs someone to shove him across the finish line. That's not what is going on here at all.

Peterson getting raw emotional about synchronicities, and how terrifying they can be (especially in the beginning)... and a commentator asking (rhetorically) "What more could you want from JP?".

As obnoxious as been-there-done-that comments tend to be, it seems that here that level of honesty is necessary, taking that question seriously and telling what I wish for Jordan. Get over it and move on, Jordan. Face your fears, do your own Jesus trip, take the psychadelics already, heal thyself healer, or what ever transformative experiences are on your path. You don't need belief in Christianity to empirically test these: ask and you shall be qiven, form your question and you shall be answered.

He's not now in a place where he can stagnate and stop evolving and learning. He can take (what I consider) the cowards way, become a worshipping believer or some other kind of sanctuary seeker to live an ordinary life without the terrifying spiritual burden, or go full in and face the music, instead of like acting like a cat around hot porrige. Most of all I wish Jordan continues to dance his dance with great style, and of course gets all the time and support he needs to grow and go on.

All we can go on is JP's body of work. I'm sure you think you have some intuitive grasping/grokking of what he is thinking, or why he is getting emotional when discussing the Jungian approach to Christianity, which is as metaphysically deep as it gets for most people, but I'm sure you also understand why most others will not take your 'intuitions' seriously. Especially those who have put in the time to study what JP lectures about and watched those lectures multiple times.

Like I have said many times before, he is not struggling with belief in Christianity or the 'burden' of being a spiritual seeker. He crossed that threshold a long time ago when he decided to act as if God exists and the scripture is His revelation. There is nothing more burdensome then taking on that responsibility. What he is struggling with, frankly, is you. That portion of his 'fan base' who feels like he needs to take a few more steps towards this or that spiritual outlook and everything will be revealed.

For you it's some form of shamanism/animism and rejection of monotheism, for many others it's fundamentalist Protestant Christianity, for his wife it's probably Roman Catholicism (although I am sure she knows him well enough not to evangelize), for Pageau it's more akin to Eastern Orthodox Christianity, so on and so forth. He is looking for something deeper and more authentic than all of those, especially in the wake of his recent trauma, and is getting fed up that no one seems to realize this 'simple' fact. He doesn't keep bringing up Jung's writings for no reason.

[Soul_of_Shu]

... take the psychedelics already, heal thyself healer, or what ever transformative experiences are on your path. You don't need belief in Christianity to empirically test these: ask and you shall be qiven, form your question and you shall be answered.

Maybe I'll start a psilocybin church north of the 49th and invite JP to join ~ if he's not still reliant on anti-this-or-that meds.

[SanteriSatama]

All we can go on is JP's body of work. I'm sure you think you have some intuitive grasping/grokking of what he is thinking, or why he is getting emotional when discussing the Jungian approach to Christianity, which is as metaphysically deep as it gets for most people, but I'm sure you also understand why most others will not take your 'intuitions' seriously. Especially those who have put in the time to study what JP lectures about and watched those lectures multiple times.

Like I have said many times before, he is not struggling with belief in Christianity or the 'burden' of being a spiritual seeker. He crossed that threshold a long time ago when he decided to act as if God exists and the scripture is His revelation. There is nothing more burdensome then taking on that responsibility. What he is struggling with, frankly, is you. That portion of his 'fan base' who feels like he needs to take a few more steps towards this or that spiritual outlook and everything will be revealed.

For you it's some form of shamanism/animism and rejection of monotheism, for many others it's fundamentalist Protestant Christianity, for his wife it's probably Roman Catholicism (although I am sure she knows him well enough not to evangelize), for Pageau it's more akin to Eastern Orthodox Christianity, so on and so forth. He is looking for something deeper and more authentic than all of those, especially in the wake of his recent trauma, and is getting fed up that no one seems to realize this 'simple' fact. He doesn't keep bringing up Jung's writings for no reason.

Of course I don't expect you to take my opinions or experiences seriously, and I'm grateful for that, seriously. And despite that, I'm just being honest for the sake of honesty by telling that I'm speaking from BTDT and recognize in JP much of what I've been through myself.

I didn't speak about the burden of "seeker" I mean the burden of finding! It's not the seeking that is terrifying, but what you may find and what that may cost to you.

Not any outlook of any ism, as you say, but the actual transformative processes, which Jung calls 'spiritual alchemy'. Who whether you like or not, is the main modern European philosopher of shamanhood, which can be an ugly or good word or what ever, it's not about the word. It's about the deep and authentic - and unique.

He can't stay where he is now because he's in too much pain. I don't know if his block is "fear of rejection" or if he has any block worth mention.

[AshvinP]

I didn't speak about the burden of "seeker" I mean the burden of finding! It's not the seeking that is terrifying, but what you may find and what that may cost to you.

That's what I am saying. The guy isn't seeking what you are describing, he already found a lot of it and has carried much of that terrifying burden. He has kept the most intimate counsel with hundreds of people in his clinical practice. He visited maximum security prisons and imagined himself performing the most heinous crimes, dwelled on it even. He has put his career and life on the line for the metaphysical sanctity of free expression. And, as 'luck' would have it, he became and perhaps has remained the most popular public intellectual on the planet, even after being sidelined for almost 2 years. He also magically seems to engender good will and good faith within the normally toxic commentariat on the internet. So, I doubt you have BT or DT. None of us have.

[SanteriSatama]

That's what I am saying. The guy isn't seeking what you are describing, he already found a lot of it and has carried much of that terrifying burden. He has kept the most intimate counsel with hundreds of people in his clinical practice. He visited maximum security prisons and imagined himself performing the most heinous crimes, dwelled on it even. He has put his career and life on the line for the metaphysical sanctity of free expression. And, as 'luck' would have it, he became and perhaps has remained the most popular public intellectual on the planet, even after being sidelined for almost 2 years. He also magically seems to engender good will and good faith within the normally toxic commentariat on the internet. So, I doubt you have BT or DT. None of us have.

I'm referring to the internal struggle JP is so charmingly open about. The public stuff is another story and not without it's Life of Brian problematics, deeply tied with the sociopsychological and evolutionary challenges of shamanhood. Which, again, is not about the (purely descriptive) word, but the actual phenomenon and it's evolution, which does not consist only of the shaman, but the various social functions and wishes and expectations of people, etc. I do agree that is the area where JP has the potential to learn and teach something new about Life of Brian problematics, together with his audience. The context of Jiddu Krishnamurti and his rejection of the role that Theosophist movement was planning for him, Jiddu's attempt at anti-guru teaching is also highly relevant here.

Imitatio Christi is an old idea and practice, but there's contradiction between the idea of Christ as the highest and most exemplary, and the much deeper force of better of evolutionary psychology / spiritual evolution. The superlative can easily become enemy and obstacle of the comparative. What JP seems to be most terrified about is the idea and actual meaning of impeccability. Which has very little to do with the opinions and judgements of the crowd, and is connected also with the deep loneliness that Jung speaks about in his autobiography.

The collective question and challenge is how to have deeply transformative spiritual experiences and to share their blessings, without them setting you apart as an object of persecution or worship, and how to get collectively better at staying friends and peers despite those. That's the deep question of also Christian anarchism.

[AshvinP]

Imitatio Christi is an old idea and practice, but there's contradiction between the idea of Christ as the highest and most exemplary, and the much deeper force of better of evolutionary psychology / spiritual evolution. The superlative can easily become enemy and obstacle of the comparative. What JP seems to be most terrified about is the idea and actual meaning of impeccability. Which has very little to do with the opinions and judgements of the crowd, and is connected also with the deep loneliness that Jung speaks about in his autobiography.

This makes some sense to me, although I am still hesitant to presume what precisely JP is 'most terrified' about, because he is in a unique situation very few if any have been in before.

I do not see a contradiction if we take Christ as the manifestation of the archetypal process through which Self-knowledge transfigures and transforms (which is not to deny his historical reality either). That process does indeed appear to be the highest and most exemplary for modern humans, at least in this lifetime. Put another way, we cannot imagine what would be higher and more exemplary at our current level of spiritual development.