Will idealism ever become part of the mainstream?

[Soul_of_Shu]

Astra ... My sole advice to you is just keep your clearly open, curious and passionate mind and heart. And with that I'll bow out of trying to convince you of anything, and trust, as you must, that the path you feel most deeply and earnestly compelled to follow will ultimately serve your journey well, as has been the case for this wandering psyche. I feel you'll do just fine.

[Astra052]

I don't think anyone claimed it proves any ontological position. It disproves physicalism in the way most scientists understand it, which is made pretty clear in the article you linked.



I wonder if Smolin's replacement theory of a "tiny and complex world of causal interactions" will also turn out to be wrong when we look deeper still? The odds are overwhelmingly in favor of "yes", which is how science progresses. If we insist on bringing ontological frameworks to our science, we should at least abandon those frameworks when the data suggests that we must do so to go any deeper, and that's exactly where physicalism is at right now - it is preventing science from going any deeper.

So is Smolin saying that space is no longer fundamental? I mean, I suppose a few people are saying that. It's just that if space and time are no longer the fundamentals of reality, what is?

Good point. What else is there that we know, without a doubt, exists?

Why can't neurons in the brain produce consciousness? What is the best evidence we have regarding consciousness to support the idealist point of view? Can we really assume to understand consciousness better than neuroscientists? Why haven't neuroscientists found anything that would indicate consciousness not being tied to the physical brain? It goes on and on.

Again, good questions. Can an image produce that which it is imaging? We know that consciousness has mathematical structure (see "psychophysics"), and we know that mathematics has an "unreasonable effectiveness" in modeling reality. I would say that's a good start.

Hmm, could you help me understand your last point there regarding consciousness and having a mathematical structure? Also "can an image produce that which it is imaging?" is a bit of a strange one. I assume since you're arguing from idealism that you believe the synapses, neurons, brain, etc are just images right? Images of what though? Why do these images seems to fundamental to whether or not our body has consciousness?

[AshvinP]

So is Smolin saying that space is no longer fundamental? I mean, I suppose a few people are saying that. It's just that if space and time are no longer the fundamentals of reality, what is?

Good point. What else is there that we know, without a doubt, exists?

Why can't neurons in the brain produce consciousness? What is the best evidence we have regarding consciousness to support the idealist point of view? Can we really assume to understand consciousness better than neuroscientists? Why haven't neuroscientists found anything that would indicate consciousness not being tied to the physical brain? It goes on and on.

Again, good questions. Can an image produce that which it is imaging? We know that consciousness has mathematical structure (see "psychophysics"), and we know that mathematics has an "unreasonable effectiveness" in modeling reality. I would say that's a good start.

Hmm, could you help me understand your last point there regarding consciousness and having a mathematical structure? Also "can an image produce that which it is imaging?" is a bit of a strange one. I assume since you're arguing from idealism that you believe the synapses, neurons, brain, etc are just images right? Images of what though? Why do these images seems to fundamental to whether or not our body has consciousness?

I can try. Since consciousness undoubtedly exists, and mathematics is undoubtedly effective at modeling reality, and consciousness undoubtedly has mathematical structure, consciousness as the essence of reality would make a very promising avenue for science to pursue, right?

re: image and imaging - every scientist admits that our perceptions are representations of what is actually 'out there', they only differ on the extent to which those representations are isomorphic to the underlying structure of reality. An educated materialist would not claim our perceptions of the brain and neuronal networks are complete representations of what we call a person's "mind". So everyone agrees they are images of one sort or another. But the materialist claims, somehow, by studying the representational images we can figure out how that which is represented (the mind) comes into being. That makes no sense to me.

I should clarify that last sentence - it makes no sense to me with materialist assumptions. Under idealism, theoretically we can learn about the essence of the represented through its representations, because its all psychic activity.

[Brad Walker]

Cosmological Multiverse is the simplest model to account for the incredible number of distinct universes necessary to make this one unsurprising. Cosmologists have probably thought of all possible patterns that can produce infinite worlds. The problem with Multiverse is the number of useless universes, not their production,

Could you elaborate on this? I've never really heard these arguments before in depth.

When scientists try to explain something they tend toward the simplest model with the fewest number of formulas. This is called parsimony. Parsimony or conceptual elegance isn't always true, which is why superstring theory can't be accepted without supporting evidence, but it's a useful heuristic. Now that the cosmological Multiverse is in a popular science evangelism phase, likely every contender hypothesis of infinite universe generation has been considered with the popular one being the strongest.

I don't have a formal argument for why many useless universes is problematic, but I'll leave you with these questions. According to Multiverse, cosmological or quantum, this discussion happens an infinite number of times with you and I dressed as Batman and Robin, because any possibility with a nonzero probability happens infinitely many times given infinite opportunities. That belief is less ridiculous than a fine-tuning Creator? Also, what are you, or how meaningful is your individual existence, when you're #1029380192831029391823 of a Multiverse family of all your physical existences across all Multiverse universe bubbles?

1,138 characters

[Cleric K]

Cleric ... Out of curiosity, what ongoing experimental exploration/experience have you had with the broad array of psychedelics available ~ which have been named 'entheogens' for good reason ~ that would lead you to this conclusion, given that incisive minds such as Stan Grof, Chistopher Bache, Rick Strassman, etc, would apparently disagree, not to mention BK himself if the explorations he depicts in Dreamed Up Reality are any indication? My own experience is not that extensive, but certainly played a significant part in grokking the primacy of consciousness, albeit far from being the sole factor. Not that I'm advising this route, as it's not to be undertaken without due diligence, but to dismiss it as totally inadvisable and non-revelatory seems cursory, to say the least.

My advice in this particular case is completely for the specific case of Astro. It's just a feeling. I might be wrong. It's just how I would advice myself from my current perspective if I was in Astro's place. I would wait few more years until the "I" becomes fully incarnated and then if I'm still curious I would try it.

As for myself, my initial experiments, towards the end of high schools were with cannabis. I know that this is not even considered psychedelic by many but for me it was. Anyone could tell that I was having very different experience from my peers. My minds was becoming 'visible' and I would just go on to explore it while my friends were simply 'having fun'. If I tried to speak about the experience (because initially I thought that everyone is having the same experience as me) I would simply get puzzled looks and something like "You think too much, bro".

Now I guess it makes me a hypocrite that I've had my initial experiences through substances while I advice Astro not to go that way. But as I said my advice (and it's just an opinion - I might be wrong) is based on his specific path so far. Mine was very different. I was extremely scientifically-materialistically inclined from my early teen years. I would laugh at the books that Astro has read. To be sure my experimentations didn't at all ring any spiritual bells. They simply increased my interest in the brain and neuroscience.

When my turnover happened I was 22. At that time I still had experience only with cannabis. After the event I very quickly became interested in meditation because it became clear to me that this was what I was doing anyway. Around that time I've also grown some mushrooms and found that the experience was not that different for me from what I was already having with cannabis (I'll mention some differences below). And within the next year or two I discontinued cannabis. When I say 'discontinued' don't think that I was a regular user. It was more like accidental happenings, sometime few times a month, then few months nothing.

Through meditation (not speaking of no-thought/no-self med.) it was possible to go beyond where the herbs could take me. And as my spiritual perception grew it was clear why. After all, substances introduce some effects within the physical body, I call it 'shaking the snowball'. Think of a dark room and flashlight. We see the objects that we illuminate. Let this represent our normal state of consciousness, the illuminated spots are our thought perceptions. Now imagine that we introduce fine dust in the room. Suddenly the light cone of the flashlight becomes visible. Of course this may not match everyone's experience. At lower doses it might be primarily visuals. But at higher doses the unusual experience of thinking activity becomes apparent.

The effects achieved through proper spiritual development lead to different results. If we continue the above metaphor we can say that through concentration of spiritual activity we merge with the light cone - we are active within it. We don't need dust to see it, because we are the light, we experience the light cone from the 'inside'. These things are first approached through deeper experience of thinking. As long as we simply think in words (the illuminated spots) our thinking is quite superficial. As we concentrate on our spiritual activity we gradually attain to living experience of thinking and we literally feel as we flow out our being on the rays of light which only when they reach the boundary between the physical and etheric body become sensory-like perceptible. Point is that we become conscious and active within the process that precedes the thought perception, that is - within the "flashlight light cone".

Through psychedelic experiences we become aware of these deeper processes that seem to be always there but we are simply not conscious of them in our ordinary state. The trouble is that without spiritual training we experience only the shaking of the snowball and the awareness that there's much more to consciousness. The ability to experience our spiritual activity within this realm can only come through personal effort. It can't be implanted externally.

I haven't had any substances for many years but recently I decided to do an experiment. I was pretty sure what the results would be but nevertheless I decided to do it for the scientist in me. I had mushrooms and my expectations were fully confirmed. Psychedelics simply don't have the 'trippy' effect anymore. It could be described more liked forceful meditation (I'll explain). Of course the 'dust' introduced in the body is there, it can't be denied. There are slight distortions in the visual field and more seed points for inner imagery available for exploration but my state of consciousness practically doesn't change. I mean it changes but not in any way differently from what I can do freely anyway.

When we meditate in the spiritual-scientific way we begin through concentration of thinking and this later leads us into the dream state without interruption of consciousness. We practically feel the biology of body changing, the tingling sensation from head to toe of loosening ourselves from the sensory sensations connected to the body. The big difference is that we don't become 'lost' in the dream state. Our body is always at 'hand distance' we can zoom into the senses anytime we decide. In this experience the astral body is loosened from the etheric and physical and we can perceive the astral processes and beings.

Something of this character happens through psychedelics but in a different way. Without any spiritual training we are dependent on the intellectual form of consciousness. In the waking state our consciousness (the astral body) is firmly 'sucked in' the sense organs and the effects of these are the primary forces that stir our waking soul life. At night the astral body releases the sense organs and opens up towards the general environment. Then the etheric brain is capable of being influenced by these purely astral 'movements' and they precipitate as dream imagery. In certain sense psychedelics loosens the astral body but without releasing the sensory organs and the brain. And this is the peculiar nature of this state. Astral forces begin to be pumped into our waking consciousness. Since we have no spiritual training, these forces can only be fragmented into things that we can conceptualize and so they become things of sensory-like character. If the astral body is loosened sufficiently we may feel our whole aura but it is constantly being fragmented and reduced into forms, into dust. Naturally, this is one of the most out-of-the-world experience one can have (compared to if only the mundane everyday consciousness is known). And it's quite true that within these kaleidoscopic precipitations of the astral body we can spot also higher order structures - we can meet a flaw of character, hidden fear, blocked emotions, etc. Nevertheless, as far as proper higher cognition is concerned, these methods become more of a hinderance than help. The main problem is that, as already said, the psychedelic experience can't help us in itself to gain proper consciousness within the astral body - this we can only gain through effort. The problem with prolonged use of psychedelics is that the ego becomes more and more comfortable in this state - it simply adapts. Unfortunately this adaptation is a kind of inflation of the ego on the wrong side of the astral body. The sensory intellect is not supposed to be there. We need completely different concepts when we deal with spiritual reality. Through forceful pumping of the astral into the domain of the sensory, it becomes fragmented and reduced to forms, colors, sounds, etc. - the things that we know and are used to from the purely sensory life. The more we do this, the harder we make it for ourselves if one day we decide to work towards higher cognition. We'll have to begin slowly deflating our ego and this is not easy at all - the ego doesn't part easily with its possessions. To put it simply, through prolonged use of psychedelics we form a sensory-like picture of our soul nature but we in no way approach the higher consciousness within it. We are simply happy to experience a visionary state of our supersensible organization.

Take someone like Terence McKenna. Here we have an example of a soul that was fascinated with the fragmented pictures of the spiritual organization. He reached the point to identify the Logos but he never dared to find his direct relation to it. There's a video where he speaks about this directly unfortunately I couldn't find it. These states correspond to atavistic clairvoyance that were actually normal in pre-Christian times. Then the hierophant was also able to recognize the visionary perception of the Logos but at that time the Logos was still rightfully an external being that shone into the soul. When in our age we stay face to face with the Logos and can't find the relation of our "I" with it, it means we're experiencing an atavistic state.

Through proper meditation we begin with our spiritual activity which finally leads us to the Logos but in completely different way - we are now merged with it's rays. It's not an external god inspiring thinking in the soul but we are one with it - it is the Macrocosmic being that expresses as our "I". This experience comes through gradual effort. The astral body is worked on by developing the needed soul qualities. As these are developed, the soul organs in the astral body become more and more defined - it is through these that we gain to proper consciousness of the astral and higher worlds. A gradient is formed through the head, larynx and heart organs. We no longer experience fragments of the astral body but we live in Imaginations within it. Through our activity we can transduce these Imaginations through the larynx and head organs and precipitate the pictures that can be communicated.

Cannabis works somewhat differently. From my experience its activity is much more on the physical-etheric boundary. It creates the soft buzzing feeling from head to toe but this doesn't lead to dream space. It's more of a loosening of the etheric body, including in the head, which makes thinking more vivid and creative, music more spacious, etc. The fact that it has psychedelic effects for me is because I was searching for them. So it was through my own unconscious effort that I've been also loosening the astral body. That's why it's also easier to become sober on command with cannabis. With classical psychedelics the astral is being forced into waking consciousness and it's not easy to undo this willfully.

To summarize all this. Through forceful pumping of the astral into waking consciousness (psychedelics are not the only way this can be achieved), it becomes fragmented into sensory-like forms that the ego can comprehend. Astounding experience as it is, it gives us an inside-out picture of the astral world. Only through gradual and deliberate work can the soul organs be shaped, through which we come to recognize not simply the inside-out picture, but we actually live in higher cognition within the forces and the beings that constitute the astral body and world. I'm speaking mainly about the astral world because it's the closest experience but it should be remembered that development leads further to consciousness within the etheric and then physical body, corresponding to the lower and higher Spiritual Worlds (the worlds of archetypal beings).

It must be noted that although I'm thankful to cannabis that it has helped me become curious about consciousness, everything comes at a price. This post is long enough already but I'll only mention that psychedelics don't at all lead to some objective view of the spiritual realms. This is already clear from the fact that we see the astral inside-out, reduced to sensory-like sound and color. But even when we have higher order insights these are very often, what I call - disproportionate. The reason is simple. When we have bypassed proper spiritual development we lack many soul qualities. We are blind for many of our faults while overinflate other things. Things like vanity, desire to brag with spiritual achievements, etc. are especially concerning and can lead to serious delusions. It took me years to undo some of the unhealthy habits that I've thus formed.

Am I against psychedelics? Not at all. Actually I believe that they can be powerful trigger for someone. But we need the science. If we ignore what has been slowly cultivated through the millennia in deepest secrecy in the Mystery Schools and only a century ago has been allowed to flow to the outside world, we'll be only showing arrogance. We simply don't have the time to lose and try and reinvent the wheel. It will take centuries for psychedelic experimentation until scientist figure out that what is thus seen, although proceeding from spiritual reality, is only an visionary precipitation. In certain sense the map will once again be mistaken for the territory.

And that's why my advice to Astro is such. Especially at this age, when even if he wants to, the Logos will probably still be out of reach for proper direct experience.

[Soul_of_Shu]

Cleric ... thanks for sharing. Suffice to say, I expect Astra will do what Astra will do regardless of whatever well-intentioned advice we may give here. This I've learned from from being a parent to a couple of teenagers, and a social worker to many more

[Cleric K]

Cleric ... thanks for sharing. Suffice to say, I expect Astra will do what Astra will do regardless of whatever well-intentioned advice we may give here.

That's for sure And that's why I started with "don't take advice from strangers"
Now that's an interesting Gödel problem: if he refuses to take the "don't take advice from strangers" advice he would actually have to take the advice about psychedelics. On the other hand, if he doesn't take the advice about psychedelics it would mean that he conforms to the "don't take advice from strangers" advice - which obviously comes from a stranger

[SanteriSatama]

Old and good advice is not to go to the psychadelics, but let them come to you when you are ready.

[Astra052]

Cleric ... thanks for sharing. Suffice to say, I expect Astra will do what Astra will do regardless of whatever well-intentioned advice we may give here. This I've learned from from being a parent to a couple of teenagers, and a social worker to many more

My interest in psychedelics comes from a few different angles. One is from the therepeutic angle which after the passing of my father I find it's something I'm interested in. The other is because I really want that experience of peaking behind the veil a bit and seeing how little I actually know, if that makes sense. I think what I'm looking for is what you and others have referred to as "grokking", that deep understanding you get what something is intelectually and subjectively experienced. I guess it all kinda builds off that idea of "seeing is believing". We could debate all day about this stuff but for me I really need that experience of "wow okay, there is a lot more out there and I just had a strong experience that changes my view of physicalism".

[Astra052]

Cleric ... Out of curiosity, what ongoing experimental exploration/experience have you had with the broad array of psychedelics available ~ which have been named 'entheogens' for good reason ~ that would lead you to this conclusion, given that incisive minds such as Stan Grof, Chistopher Bache, Rick Strassman, etc, would apparently disagree, not to mention BK himself if the explorations he depicts in Dreamed Up Reality are any indication? My own experience is not that extensive, but certainly played a significant part in grokking the primacy of consciousness, albeit far from being the sole factor. Not that I'm advising this route, as it's not to be undertaken without due diligence, but to dismiss it as totally inadvisable and non-revelatory seems cursory, to say the least.

My advice in this particular case is completely for the specific case of Astro. It's just a feeling. I might be wrong. It's just how I would advice myself from my current perspective if I was in Astro's place. I would wait few more years until the "I" becomes fully incarnated and then if I'm still curious I would try it.

As for myself, my initial experiments, towards the end of high schools were with cannabis. I know that this is not even considered psychedelic by many but for me it was. Anyone could tell that I was having very different experience from my peers. My minds was becoming 'visible' and I would just go on to explore it while my friends were simply 'having fun'. If I tried to speak about the experience (because initially I thought that everyone is having the same experience as me) I would simply get puzzled looks and something like "You think too much, bro".

Now I guess it makes me a hypocrite that I've had my initial experiences through substances while I advice Astro not to go that way. But as I said my advice (and it's just an opinion - I might be wrong) is based on his specific path so far. Mine was very different. I was extremely scientifically-materialistically inclined from my early teen years. I would laugh at the books that Astro has read. To be sure my experimentations didn't at all ring any spiritual bells. They simply increased my interest in the brain and neuroscience.

When my turnover happened I was 22. At that time I still had experience only with cannabis. After the event I very quickly became interested in meditation because it became clear to me that this was what I was doing anyway. Around that time I've also grown some mushrooms and found that the experience was not that different for me from what I was already having with cannabis (I'll mention some differences below). And within the next year or two I discontinued cannabis. When I say 'discontinued' don't think that I was a regular user. It was more like accidental happenings, sometime few times a month, then few months nothing.

Through meditation (not speaking of no-thought/no-self med.) it was possible to go beyond where the herbs could take me. And as my spiritual perception grew it was clear why. After all, substances introduce some effects within the physical body, I call it 'shaking the snowball'. Think of a dark room and flashlight. We see the objects that we illuminate. Let this represent our normal state of consciousness, the illuminated spots are our thought perceptions. Now imagine that we introduce fine dust in the room. Suddenly the light cone of the flashlight becomes visible. Of course this may not match everyone's experience. At lower doses it might be primarily visuals. But at higher doses the unusual experience of thinking activity becomes apparent.

The effects achieved through proper spiritual development lead to different results. If we continue the above metaphor we can say that through concentration of spiritual activity we merge with the light cone - we are active within it. We don't need dust to see it, because we are the light, we experience the light cone from the 'inside'. These things are first approached through deeper experience of thinking. As long as we simply think in words (the illuminated spots) our thinking is quite superficial. As we concentrate on our spiritual activity we gradually attain to living experience of thinking and we literally feel as we flow out our being on the rays of light which only when they reach the boundary between the physical and etheric body become sensory-like perceptible. Point is that we become conscious and active within the process that precedes the thought perception, that is - within the "flashlight light cone".

Through psychedelic experiences we become aware of these deeper processes that seem to be always there but we are simply not conscious of them in our ordinary state. The trouble is that without spiritual training we experience only the shaking of the snowball and the awareness that there's much more to consciousness. The ability to experience our spiritual activity within this realm can only come through personal effort. It can't be implanted externally.

I haven't had any substances for many years but recently I decided to do an experiment. I was pretty sure what the results would be but nevertheless I decided to do it for the scientist in me. I had mushrooms and my expectations were fully confirmed. Psychedelics simply don't have the 'trippy' effect anymore. It could be described more liked forceful meditation (I'll explain). Of course the 'dust' introduced in the body is there, it can't be denied. There are slight distortions in the visual field and more seed points for inner imagery available for exploration but my state of consciousness practically doesn't change. I mean it changes but not in any way differently from what I can do freely anyway.

When we meditate in the spiritual-scientific way we begin through concentration of thinking and this later leads us into the dream state without interruption of consciousness. We practically feel the biology of body changing, the tingling sensation from head to toe of loosening ourselves from the sensory sensations connected to the body. The big difference is that we don't become 'lost' in the dream state. Our body is always at 'hand distance' we can zoom into the senses anytime we decide. In this experience the astral body is loosened from the etheric and physical and we can perceive the astral processes and beings.

Something of this character happens through psychedelics but in a different way. Without any spiritual training we are dependent on the intellectual form of consciousness. In the waking state our consciousness (the astral body) is firmly 'sucked in' the sense organs and the effects of these are the primary forces that stir our waking soul life. At night the astral body releases the sense organs and opens up towards the general environment. Then the etheric brain is capable of being influenced by these purely astral 'movements' and they precipitate as dream imagery. In certain sense psychedelics loosens the astral body but without releasing the sensory organs and the brain. And this is the peculiar nature of this state. Astral forces begin to be pumped into our waking consciousness. Since we have no spiritual training, these forces can only be fragmented into things that we can conceptualize and so they become things of sensory-like character. If the astral body is loosened sufficiently we may feel our whole aura but it is constantly being fragmented and reduced into forms, into dust. Naturally, this is one of the most out-of-the-world experience one can have (compared to if only the mundane everyday consciousness is known). And it's quite true that within these kaleidoscopic precipitations of the astral body we can spot also higher order structures - we can meet a flaw of character, hidden fear, blocked emotions, etc. Nevertheless, as far as proper higher cognition is concerned, these methods become more of a hinderance than help. The main problem is that, as already said, the psychedelic experience can't help us in itself to gain proper consciousness within the astral body - this we can only gain through effort. The problem with prolonged use of psychedelics is that the ego becomes more and more comfortable in this state - it simply adapts. Unfortunately this adaptation is a kind of inflation of the ego on the wrong side of the astral body. The sensory intellect is not supposed to be there. We need completely different concepts when we deal with spiritual reality. Through forceful pumping of the astral into the domain of the sensory, it becomes fragmented and reduced to forms, colors, sounds, etc. - the things that we know and are used to from the purely sensory life. The more we do this, the harder we make it for ourselves if one day we decide to work towards higher cognition. We'll have to begin slowly deflating our ego and this is not easy at all - the ego doesn't part easily with its possessions. To put it simply, through prolonged use of psychedelics we form a sensory-like picture of our soul nature but we in no way approach the higher consciousness within it. We are simply happy to experience a visionary state of our supersensible organization.

Take someone like Terence McKenna. Here we have an example of a soul that was fascinated with the fragmented pictures of the spiritual organization. He reached the point to identify the Logos but he never dared to find his direct relation to it. There's a video where he speaks about this directly unfortunately I couldn't find it. These states correspond to atavistic clairvoyance that were actually normal in pre-Christian times. Then the hierophant was also able to recognize the visionary perception of the Logos but at that time the Logos was still rightfully an external being that shone into the soul. When in our age we stay face to face with the Logos and can't find the relation of our "I" with it, it means we're experiencing an atavistic state.

Through proper meditation we begin with our spiritual activity which finally leads us to the Logos but in completely different way - we are now merged with it's rays. It's not an external god inspiring thinking in the soul but we are one with it - it is the Macrocosmic being that expresses as our "I". This experience comes through gradual effort. The astral body is worked on by developing the needed soul qualities. As these are developed, the soul organs in the astral body become more and more defined - it is through these that we gain to proper consciousness of the astral and higher worlds. A gradient is formed through the head, larynx and heart organs. We no longer experience fragments of the astral body but we live in Imaginations within it. Through our activity we can transduce these Imaginations through the larynx and head organs and precipitate the pictures that can be communicated.

Cannabis works somewhat differently. From my experience its activity is much more on the physical-etheric boundary. It creates the soft buzzing feeling from head to toe but this doesn't lead to dream space. It's more of a loosening of the etheric body, including in the head, which makes thinking more vivid and creative, music more spacious, etc. The fact that it has psychedelic effects for me is because I was searching for them. So it was through my own unconscious effort that I've been also loosening the astral body. That's why it's also easier to become sober on command with cannabis. With classical psychedelics the astral is being forced into waking consciousness and it's not easy to undo this willfully.

To summarize all this. Through forceful pumping of the astral into waking consciousness (psychedelics are not the only way this can be achieved), it becomes fragmented into sensory-like forms that the ego can comprehend. Astounding experience as it is, it gives us an inside-out picture of the astral world. Only through gradual and deliberate work can the soul organs be shaped, through which we come to recognize not simply the inside-out picture, but we actually live in higher cognition within the forces and the beings that constitute the astral body and world. I'm speaking mainly about the astral world because it's the closest experience but it should be remembered that development leads further to consciousness within the etheric and then physical body, corresponding to the lower and higher Spiritual Worlds (the worlds of archetypal beings).

It must be noted that although I'm thankful to cannabis that it has helped me become curious about consciousness, everything comes at a price. This post is long enough already but I'll only mention that psychedelics don't at all lead to some objective view of the spiritual realms. This is already clear from the fact that we see the astral inside-out, reduced to sensory-like sound and color. But even when we have higher order insights these are very often, what I call - disproportionate. The reason is simple. When we have bypassed proper spiritual development we lack many soul qualities. We are blind for many of our faults while overinflate other things. Things like vanity, desire to brag with spiritual achievements, etc. are especially concerning and can lead to serious delusions. It took me years to undo some of the unhealthy habits that I've thus formed.

Am I against psychedelics? Not at all. Actually I believe that they can be powerful trigger for someone. But we need the science. If we ignore what has been slowly cultivated through the millennia in deepest secrecy in the Mystery Schools and only a century ago has been allowed to flow to the outside world, we'll be only showing arrogance. We simply don't have the time to lose and try and reinvent the wheel. It will take centuries for psychedelic experimentation until scientist figure out that what is thus seen, although proceeding from spiritual reality, is only an visionary precipitation. In certain sense the map will once again be mistaken for the territory.

And that's why my advice to Astro is such. Especially at this age, when even if he wants to, the Logos will proba Thbly still be out of reach for proper direct experience.

You see, the things you're saying make sense to me from a spiritual perspective. I've had enough experience with esoteric practices for the things you're describing to line up pretty well with the spiritual truths I've encountered. My issue comes in with science though. Where is the soul? How does the soul interact with the physical body? Is the soul the same as consciousness? If so, is the soul reliant on the brain? I see you describing the formation of a subtle body which maps very well onto the Hermetic teachings I've read as well as the spiritual alchemy involved which is all fine and good but doesn't this all come down to consciousness? I just don't feel like I've come across anything that really makes me feel like consciousness is not just a product of the brain. This is why I'm interested in psychedelics, it seems to be a reliable way for people to shake that view and somehow have an experience that tells them consciousness is not just a phenomena created by our brains but is something more fundamental. I need to have that direct experience that can help me understand how to come to that conclusion.