Nietzsche and Christianity - Metaphysical Idealist Critique

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AshvinP
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Nietzsche and Christianity - Metaphysical Idealist Critique

Post by AshvinP »

This is something I have just been thinking about lately, so just wanted to share here and perhaps get some feedback. It's clear to me that everyone brings their own prejudices and motivations to the table when discussing philosophy, and especially profound philosophers who are hard to categorize like Nietzsche. They serve as empty space in which we can project our contents. We invoke this or that philosopher for our own personal critiques, whether conscious or subconscious, yet state them as if they are straight from the philosopher's mouth. I know philosophy/metaphysics is not a purely 'objective' pursuit, because no field of inquiry is, not even the 'hardest' of sciences, but we can at least try to make conscious our own biases and see how they may be subtly influencing our perspectives. That being said...

What I see from German idealism all the way through Heidegger/Jung is a continuity of metaphysical thought. What is the common element of thought from Kant, Hegel, Schelling, Fichte through to Schopenhauer and Kierkegaard, through to Steiner, Husserl, Heidegger, and Jung? These thinkers were vastly different in the way they derived and formulated their epistemological and ethical systems of thought (Jung thought of himself a scientist more than philosopher, but that is debatable), yet they all held to some form of idealist metaphysics. Some were much more explicit than others, but that conclusion is rather undeniable at this time. And Nietzsche was smack dab in the center of that entire contiguous tradition, temporally and conceptually.

So what does any of that have to do with Christianity? Well, if Nietzsche's concern was primarily metaphysical-ethical, then there was something about the metaphysical framing of Christianity over the last 1900 years, and especially over the last 400, which rubbed him the wrong way, even if he did not explicitly speak of it in those terms. I assert that his primary concern was it's metaphysical rationalism/dualism (which also seemed to be his concern with Socrates, Plato and Aristotle), most forcefully expressed in Descartes. Christian theology was dividing the world up into mutually exclusive dualities which are all related to each other - matter and mind, natural and supernatural, life and afterlife, evil and good.

There are clearly important, even fundamental, distinctions to be made in some of these conceptions, what Samuel Taylor Coleridge would call 'polar opposites', "two forces of one power", but that is worlds apart from the severing and separating of the polar opposites into increasingly isolated dualities, and both Christianity and materialist 'humanism' were leading the way in that regard in the 19th century. We could rightly call it the anti-Christ to Christ, as nothing the latter did or said necessitated any sort of metaphysical dualism. Nietzsche was an extremely keen observer of this process, perhaps the most insightful who has ever lived apart from Steiner. The latter writes beautifully about Nietzsche as a "Fighter for Freedom".
Rudolf Steiner wrote:Friedrich Nietzche characterizes himself as a lonely ponderer and friend of riddles, as a personality not made for the age in which he lived. The one who follows such paths as his, “meets no one; this is a part of going one's own way. No one approaches to help him; all that happens to him of danger, accidents, evil and bad weather, he must get along with alone,” he says in the preface of the second edition of his Morgenröte, Dawn. But it is stimulating to follow him into his loneliness. In the words in which he expressed his relationship to Schopenhauer, I would like to describe my relationship to Nietzsche: “I belong to those readers of Nietzsche who, after they have read the first page, know with certainty that they will read all pages, and listen to every word he has said. My confidence in him was there immediately ... I understood him as if he had written just for me, in order to express all that I would say intelligibly but immediately and foolishly.”
What Nietzsche despised the most, similar to Schopenhauer, were the intellectuals, religious, secular, and everyone in between, who acted as if they had transcended their subjective influence on the 'objective world'. That they can study the 'truths' of science, religion, etc. without bringing their own unconscious instincts, values and motivations to the table. He doesn't even bother with a 'rational' evaluation of the 'truths' they are putting forth - if it reeks of cold detached 'objectivity' and/or life-negating propositions, he is done with it. Such detached moralistic views have absolutely zero value for him; negative value in fact. And can we really blame him for that?

A good modern day example would be the anti-natalists, who put forth the most 'rock solid' intellectual arguments for why humans should stop procreating and let the species die out. Everything from utilitarian ethics to scientific ecological arguments are employed by them. Humanity is clearly a blight on the planet Earth, they say. But none of those arguments matter, according to Nietzsche, because the conclusion reached is life-negating and therefore fundamentally wrong in a manner that cannot be captured by pure rationality. We do not need to adopt any sort of moral relativism to affirm what Nietzsche is affirming. Keen observers would also note the significant parallel between Nietzsche and American pragmatism here.

So, returning to the question at hand, given what we now know about this long and rich tradition of metaphysics in the Western world, what needs to happen for Christianity and the Church to reform? I would suggest nothing less than the total forsaking of any dogmatic, metaphysically dualist versions of Christianity which have dominated the Western spiritual landscape for many centuries. The so-called "Reformed" traditions are especially problematic, as they have flattened out and demythologized Christianity to the extent where it is nearly impossible for anyone within such traditions to recognize what was discussed above.

They make the 'otherworldly' values so fundamental that they become indistinguishable from nihilism. They set up 'objective' standards of behavior which cannot possibly be met and are so foreign to us that adhering to them necessarily causes a deep anxiety - they make us feel mechanistic, mindless and unfree. So the farther back we go in the Christian tradition, the better. Roman Catholicism certainly has its fair share of flaws, but there is still a clear mythological and participatory aspect to it. Eastern Orthodox is even better in that regard. And if we can reimagine the teachings of Christ, the Biblical authors and the early Church fathers in this light, we may have a slim chance of recovering much of what was lost.

'Darwinian' thinkers who recognize a deep continuity of spiritual experience throughout human history, like Carl Jung, Erich Neumann, Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, Rudolf Steiner, Jean Gebser, and Owen Barfield, to name a few, have already done much of the intellectual heavy lifting here - we just need to pick up their baton and run with it. None of this should be taken as a plea to regress towards the past, not at all. Rather it is a challenge to integrate our entire spiritual history with our scientific-technological outlook and ethical individualism. A challenge to discard the experiential and cognitive shackles which have been prepared for us, and to instead "become who we are".
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Re: Nietzsche and Christianity - Metaphysical Idealist Critique

Post by Eugene I »

AshvinP wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:09 pm So what does any of that have to do with Christianity? Well, if Nietzsche's concern was primarily metaphysical-ethical, then there was something about the metaphysical framing of Christianity over the last 1900 years, and especially over the last 400, which rubbed him the wrong way, even if he did not explicitly speak of it in those terms. I assert that his primary concern was it's metaphysical rationalism/dualism (which also seemed to be his concern with Socrates, Plato and Aristotle), most forcefully expressed in Descartes. Christian theology was dividing the world up into mutually exclusive dualities which are all related to each other - matter and mind, natural and supernatural, life and afterlife, evil and good.
Very much agree, Ashvin, this is one of the fundamental problems of Christianity.
So, returning to the question at hand, given what we now know about this long and rich tradition of metaphysics in the Western world, what needs to happen for Christianity and the Church to reform? I would suggest nothing less than the total forsaking of any dogmatic, metaphysically dualist versions of Christianity which have dominated the Western spiritual landscape for many centuries. The so-called "Reformed" traditions are especially problematic, as they have flattened out and demythologized Christianity to the extent where it is nearly impossible for anyone within such traditions to recognize what was discussed above.

They make the 'otherworldly' values so fundamental that they become indistinguishable from nihilism. They set up 'objective' standards of behavior which cannot possibly be met and are so foreign to us that adhering to them necessarily causes a deep anxiety - they make us feel mechanistic, mindless and unfree. So the farther back we go in the Christian tradition, the better. Roman Catholicism certainly has its fair share of flaws, but there is still a clear mythological and participatory aspect to it. Eastern Orthodox is even better in that regard. And if we can reimagine the teachings of Christ, the Biblical authors and the early Church fathers in this light, we may have a slim chance of recovering much of what was lost.
Having been a devoted Orthodox Christian for more than a decade in the past, I'm very much familiar with this tradition, its culture and mentality, both practical and theological. It is true that the Eastern Orthodox tradition preserved a deep mythological and participatory aspect of the Christian faith. On the other hand, especially in our times, it became extremely rigid, non-flexible and closed-minded to any modern developments in spirituality, philosophy or science. In their view, all there is to know for us has already been given in the Bible and in the tradition/writings of the Holy Fathers, it is complete and nothing is lacking or needs to be changed or added. I would say, there is close to zero chance that the Orthodox Church will change in the way you described. Perhaps some fringe groups may split from it and develop in that direction, but no chance for the Eastern Orthodox Church as a whole. Catholic Church seems to be a bit more open-minded and flexible, but I'm not so familiar with Catholicism so can not really tell.

The dualistic mentality was overcame in the Eastern Advaitic/Vedic and Buddhist traditions, however, they are also lacking in many respects being too static and too focused on the non-dual aspect of reality and neglecting the evolutionary/developmental aspects and values of the world of forms (although some traditions, such as Zen for example, are more open to it). Ideally a union of Eastern non-duality with Christian developmental momentum would be a good way to go, but in order for that to happen, some serious metaphysical contradictions between them would need to be reconciled first. At this point they are rather incompatible. I would think, because of these fundamental differences, the Eastern non-dual and Western theistic traditions will keep developing separately but will be expanding and absorbing certain elements from each other.

And in addition to the problems pointed by Nietzsche, in our times many branches of both Eastern and Western traditions suffer from secularism and pragmatism and to neglecting the mystical, participatory and mythological aspects.
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Re: Nietzsche and Christianity - Metaphysical Idealist Critique

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Catholic philosopher Nicolaus Cusanus used the term coincidentia oppositorum to dissolve the hard dualism, with same meaning as coniunctio of alchemists. The Heraclitean and Neoplatonic dialectics were perhaps not mainstream, but also not absent. The corpus of ancient Greek texts that has been preserved to us, comes in large part through copying manuscripts in Greek and Roman Catholic monasteries. Classical Greek and Latin are very different languages in spirit, and contemporary difference between Continental and Analytical philosophy reflects the same difference.

A comment on anti-natalism. As an extreme form it is ridiculous as such, but can be seen also as part of the holistic dialectic aiming towards ethics of moderation and balanced sustainability, with the other polar end of anti-natalism being manically exponential quantitative/material growth.
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Re: Nietzsche and Christianity - Metaphysical Idealist Critique

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SanteriSatama wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 4:19 pm A comment on anti-natalism. As an extreme form it is ridiculous as such, but can be seen also as part of the holistic dialectic aiming towards ethics of moderation and balanced sustainability, with the other polar end of anti-natalism being manically exponential quantitative/material growth.
What is the non-extreme form of anti-natalism? Moderation and sustainability alone seem to be anathema to their philosophy.
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Re: Nietzsche and Christianity - Metaphysical Idealist Critique

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AshvinP wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 4:41 pm What is the non-extreme form of anti-natalism? Moderation and sustainability alone seem to be anathema to their philosophy.
When I did a search on that term, it looked like an universalist 'should' on the level of whole species, or even all species. So yes, pretty much anything else is less extreme. :)
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Re: Nietzsche and Christianity - Metaphysical Idealist Critique

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Eugene I wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:19 pm Having been a devoted Orthodox Christian for more than a decade in the past, I'm very much familiar with this tradition, its culture and mentality, both practical and theological. It is true that the Eastern Orthodox tradition preserved a deep mythological and participatory aspect of the Christian faith. On the other hand, especially in our times, it became extremely rigid, non-flexible and closed-minded to any modern developments in spirituality, philosophy or science. In their view, all there is to know for us has already been given in the Bible and in the tradition/writings of the Holy Fathers, it is complete and nothing is lacking or needs to be changed or added. I would say, there is close to zero chance that the Orthodox Church will change in the way you described. Perhaps some fringe groups may split from it and develop in that direction, but no chance for the Eastern Orthodox Church as a whole. Catholic Church seems to be a bit more open-minded and flexible, but I'm not so familiar with Catholicism so can not really tell.
That is disheartening. I would have presumed it to be much more flexible than RC, but I will defer to your experience. The concept that the Bible (and in EO that is more texts than RC, correct?) may give us "all there is to know" for our current pragmatic purposes is not so much a problem for me. I believe there is almost never-ending depth to the Biblical writings as long as we break from the shackles of those metaphysical assumptions. We are very far away from mining all of the meaning there is to be mined from that corpus.
The dualistic mentality was overcame in the Eastern Advaitic/Vedic and Buddhist traditions, however, they are also lacking in many respects being too static and too focused on the non-dual aspect of reality and neglecting the evolutionary/developmental aspects and values of the world of forms (although some traditions, such as Zen for example, are more open to it). Ideally a union of Eastern non-duality with Christian developmental momentum would be a good way to go, but in order for that to happen, some serious metaphysical contradictions between them would need to be reconciled first. At this point they are rather incompatible. I would think, because of these fundamental differences, the Eastern non-dual and Western theistic traditions will keep developing separately but will be expanding and absorbing certain elements from each other.

And in addition to the problems pointed by Nietzsche, in our times many branches of both Eastern and Western traditions suffer from secularism and pragmatism and to neglecting the mystical, participatory and mythological aspects.
Well the existence of Christian mystical traditions in the spirit of Boehme and Eckhart for ex. is a good sign that such an integration can be accomplished, but yes a lot more serious transformations need to occur for any of that to become widespread and truly influential. I know we have debated this before, but I just don't think the fully Eastern nondual traditions have actually developed much since they were first formulated. Rather it seems they were incorporated into various Persian and Western traditions including the Judeo-Christian ones, and the latter have continued to evolve in various directions.
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Re: Nietzsche and Christianity - Metaphysical Idealist Critique

Post by Simon Adams »

My take on this is that labels such as monism and duality can really confuse things, it’s like Descartes has been reflected backwards in ways that would not make any sense to the people before. The scholastics saw the human as a single substance, form and matter were not dualism - it’s just two perspectives that we are all fully aware of (some aspects of us are material, some are not). That said, I agree that the mechanistic, cartesian way of seeing things is everywhere now, including in some parts of the church.

Also the catholic church is a wide umbrella. The Franciscans were founded by someone who spoke to animals, and greeted “brother sun” and “sister moon”. Scotus the Franciscan has a different take on things than the Dominican Aquinas, but neither of them are anywhere near cartesian dualism.

Of course the church moves slowly, unlike any other organisation it’s lasted a very long time by not jumping onto the currently trendy ideas, and sometimes maybe goes too far in holding on to tried and trusted frameworks. However even people like Pierre Teilhard de Chardin who are rejected as too revolutionary at first, slowly gain acceptance as having valid contributions if they stand the test of time. With such deep and old traditions it can seem slow to change or listen in the time frame we’re used to, but my experience of it has not been as closed minded.

That said there is a fundamental way in which the church could be called closed minded, and dualistic. I think everyone here sees “mind at large”, the conscious substrate that eastern religions aim to dissolve into a unity with (perception perceiving itself directly), is the same as god. If you take the judeo-christian scripture seriously, it says something different, namely that this is all part of creation. God is transcendent through it all, but our bodies/minds are not composed of god.

This probably seems like a mistaken understanding of things to you guys, but it’s s important because it’s the reason behind some of the comments in the thread above. Yes we can all learn things ‘upwards’ from experience (up to the ‘eastern enlightenment’), or from reason (including science, maths, philosophy), but about god we believe that we have solid reasons to have implicit trust in scripture. This is the faith bit that you either have or you don’t. You get some protestant groups that see scripture in a literalist way that makes no sense to me at all, but I can still see something in them of the experience of it being ‘opened’. You see all the reflections of the arrival of Christ right back to Abraham being asked to get his son to carry the wood on his back for his own sacrifice, up a hill in what would become Jerusalem. I’ll avoid boring you with more examples, but there is depth and meaning in all of it that is the foundation, one that joins with our experience and our understanding but goes so far past it that it’s the solid ground for us. Not fixed and rigid solid ground, but as a living mystery and complemented by the mystical, the sacraments, eucharistic adoration, theosis etc

Everyone - whether consciously or unconsciously - has axioms that we come to accept and then use to understand other things. Unless you can step into shoes where the creation of the universe, the inspiration of scripture and the person of Jesus are inextricably bound together, the church will never make much sense. There’s a quantum shift in worldview that you can’t reason through, one at least as significant as that between materialist and idealist ontologies (which are of course both monist :)).
Ideas are certain original forms of things, their archetypes, permanent and incommunicable, which are contained in the Divine intelligence. And though they neither begin to be nor cease, yet upon them are patterned the manifold things of the world that come into being and pass away.
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Re: Nietzsche and Christianity - Metaphysical Idealist Critique

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Simon Adams wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:12 am My take on this is that labels such as monism and duality can really confuse things, it’s like Descartes has been reflected backwards in ways that would not make any sense to the people before. The scholastics saw the human as a single substance, form and matter were not dualism - it’s just two perspectives that we are all fully aware of (some aspects of us are material, some are not).

Also the catholic church is a wide umbrella. The Franciscans were founded by someone who spoke to animals, and greeted “brother sun” and “sister moon”. Scotus the Franciscan has a different take on things than the Dominican Aquinas, but neither of them are anywhere near cartesian dualism.
I generally agree, but we should remember these sweeping metaphysical developments are contained in germinal form through prior epochs. The mythic-mental consciousness of Axial Age was very distinct from Cartesian rationalism, but we can still recognize the precognitive patterns in such thought which carries over into the scholastic era and will blossom into Cartesian dualism. In that same way, we can recognize the germinal patterns in Cartesian rationalism and other related developments which have now carried over into the developing 'aperspectival' mode of consciousness, in which individual imaginative capacity becomes paramount to continued progress. Nietzsche was a keen observer of this entire process, both past and future from his time.
Of course the church moves slowly, unlike any other organisation it’s lasted a very long time by not jumping onto the currently trendy ideas, and sometimes maybe goes too far in holding on to tried and trusted frameworks. However even people like Pierre Teilhard de Chardin who are rejected as too revolutionary at first, slowly gain acceptance as having valid contributions if they stand the test of time. With such deep and old traditions it can seem slow to change or listen in the time frame we’re used to, but my experience of it has not been as closed minded.

That said there is a fundamental way in which the church could be called closed minded, and dualistic. I think everyone here sees “mind at large”, the conscious substrate that eastern religions aim to dissolve into a unity with (perception perceiving itself directly), is the same as god. If you take our scripture seriously, it says something different, namely that this is all part of creation. God is transcendent through it all, but our bodies/minds are not composed of god.
The 'panentheist' position is entirely consistent with Judeo-Christian scripture-tradition and holds God as transcendent and immanent. It does not aim at dissolving anything of the present world into some underlying unconscious or 'merely aware' unity, yet remains aligned with metaphysical monism-idealism. And Nietzsche's metaphysics, as odd as it may seem, is also aligned with such a position. As Steiner characterizes it:
Steiner wrote:The [rationalists] have split man into body and soul, have divided all existence into idea and reality. And they have made the soul, the spirit, the idea, into something especially valuable in order that they may despise the reality, the body all the more. But Zarathustra says, There is but one reality, but one body, and the soul is only something in the body, the ideal is only something in reality. Body and soul of man are a unity ; body and spirit spring from one root. The spirit is there only because a body is there, which has strength to develop the spirit in itself. As the plant unfolds the blossom from itself, so the body unfolds the spirit from itself.
Simon wrote:This probably seems like a mistaken understanding of things to you guys, but it’s s important because it’s the reason behind some of the comments in the thread above. Yes we can all learn things ‘upwards’ from experience (up to the ‘eastern enlightenment’), or from reason (including science, maths, philosophy), but about god we believe that we have solid reasons to have implicit trust in scripture. This is the faith bit that you either have or you don’t. You get some protestant groups that see scripture in a literalist way that makes no sense to me at all, but I can still see something in them of the experience of it being ‘opened’. You see all the reflections of the arrival of Christ right back to Abraham being asked to get his son to carry the wood on his back for his own sacrifice, up a hill in what would become Jerusalem. I’ll avoid boring you with more examples, but there is depth and meaning in all of it that is the foundation, one that joins with our experience and our understanding but goes so far past it that it’s the solid ground for us.

Everyone - whether consciously or unconsciously - has axioms that we come to accept and then use to understand other things. Materialist’s have their and unless you can step into shoes where the creation of the universe, the inspiration of scripture and the person of Jesus are inextricably bound together, the church will never make much sense. There’s a quantum shift in worldview that you can’t reason through, one bigger than that between materialist and idealist ontologies.
I don't see anything to quibble with in the above, and I am not trying to paint with too broad of a brush - there very well may be Protestant 'reformed' traditions which are more aligned with a participatory approach which could swing such traditions back into a truly life-affirming spirituality. The Pentecostal traditions come to mind. What's more important than identifying what traditions will end up where is just recognizing the broader habits of mind which can steer any and all traditions in a perilous direction.
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Re: Nietzsche and Christianity - Metaphysical Idealist Critique

Post by Simon Adams »

AshvinP wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:46 am
I generally agree, but we should remember these sweeping metaphysical developments are contained in germinal form through prior epochs. The mythic-mental consciousness of Axial Age was very distinct from Cartesian rationalism, but we can still recognize the precognitive patterns in such thought which carries over into the scholastic era and will blossom into Cartesian dualism. In that same way, we can recognize the germinal patterns in Cartesian rationalism and other related developments which have now carried over into the developing 'aperspectival' mode of consciousness, in which individual imaginative capacity becomes paramount to continued progress. Nietzsche was a keen observer of this entire process, both past and future from his time.
I think there are people through history that gain an insight through either an upward intuition, or a downward revelation. When it’s the upward intuition it’s often expressed symbolically, as maybe a fragmentary archetype. If reality is like a stained glass window, then the it’s a couple of panels, a shape or symbol, one or two colours.

In this analogy the scientific process looks at it through a microscope, so it says it’s glass when you do this here, it’s lead when you do it there, and these are the rules that will help to predict where the lead and glass will be based on what readings you’ve already taken. I think this is your cartesian rationalism.

When it’s the downward revelation, it’s a something of the story depicted on the window. So instead of a symbol representing something, it contains the symbolism itself in layers. It needs to be lit up from behind to make sense of it.

I’m not sure if that makes sense but it’s the only way I can think of putting it.
The 'panentheist' position is entirely consistent with Judeo-Christian scripture-tradition and holds God as transcendent and immanent. It does not aim at dissolving anything of the present world into some underlying unconscious or 'merely aware' unity, yet remains aligned with metaphysical monism-idealism. And Nietzsche's metaphysics, as odd as it may seem, is also aligned with such a position.
As Steiner characterizes it:
Steiner wrote:The [rationalists] have split man into body and soul, have divided all existence into idea and reality. And they have made the soul, the spirit, the idea, into something especially valuable in order that they may despise the reality, the body all the more. But Zarathustra says, There is but one reality, but one body, and the soul is only something in the body, the ideal is only something in reality. Body and soul of man are a unity ; body and spirit spring from one root. The spirit is there only because a body is there, which has strength to develop the spirit in itself. As the plant unfolds the blossom from itself, so the body unfolds the spirit from itself.
Yes and I agree with this. The church is explicitly against gnosticism because of the way it splits body and spirit, with body being base and bad, and spirit being good and pure. It’s a complete unity, and a fundamental mistake when you have pop spirituality that separates the two as you often see in hollywood, whether it’s “Star Wars” or “Love, Pray, Eat”. As soon as the spiritual becomes something separate, a ‘secret energy’ disconnected from the body, it’s going to fail. Neither real Buddhism nor real Christianity have this separation.

However from my perspective there is a bigger picture where this unity of substance exists. Below are the waters of the universe, above are the waters of divine ideas, and we’re in the middle, playing our parts. It’s not a separation so much as a shape, like a cross where the horizontal is our lives, or even history. You can track history as a series of actions or a series of ideas, but they are not separate, they are just different aspects of the same thing.

Whether you say the cross is mind, or spirit it doesn’t really matter, it’s all contained in god and comes from god. My issue with most panentheism is that god becomes the cross in a conceptual way. It’s tricky though because I don’t think we have the language to describe the different types of mystical experience of unity with the waters (the vertical of the cross) and unity with god.

I don't see anything to quibble with in the above, and I am not trying to paint with too broad of a brush - there very well may be Protestant 'reformed' traditions which are more aligned with a participatory approach which could swing such traditions back into a truly life-affirming spirituality. The Pentecostal traditions come to mind. What's more important than identifying what traditions will end up where is just recognizing the broader habits of mind which can steer any and all traditions in a perilous direction.
Yes I think the participatory part is important. It’s very strange for me as I used to think of christianity as being very exoteric. But since becoming a catholic I find it drenched in “life affirming spirituality”. Once you get past the outward image of the mass, there is a deeper rhythm in the symbols and rituals of the eucharist that is something mysterious and real. The exact same shared spiritual celebration being performed by over a billion people every sunday, a point where the above meets the below on a monumental scale but each in a small way. Eucharistic adoration is like a well of affirming life. There are many aspects, things we do just in lent like stations of the cross, all of them mean nothing except by doing them. It’s like meditation, you can read all the books you like on it, but you have to put effort into doing it with one-pointed-mind before you start to understand what it’s about.
Ideas are certain original forms of things, their archetypes, permanent and incommunicable, which are contained in the Divine intelligence. And though they neither begin to be nor cease, yet upon them are patterned the manifold things of the world that come into being and pass away.
St Augustine
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Re: Nietzsche and Christianity - Metaphysical Idealist Critique

Post by AshvinP »

Simon Adams wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 12:44 pm
AshvinP wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:46 am
I generally agree, but we should remember these sweeping metaphysical developments are contained in germinal form through prior epochs. The mythic-mental consciousness of Axial Age was very distinct from Cartesian rationalism, but we can still recognize the precognitive patterns in such thought which carries over into the scholastic era and will blossom into Cartesian dualism. In that same way, we can recognize the germinal patterns in Cartesian rationalism and other related developments which have now carried over into the developing 'aperspectival' mode of consciousness, in which individual imaginative capacity becomes paramount to continued progress. Nietzsche was a keen observer of this entire process, both past and future from his time.
I think there are people through history that gain an insight through either an upward intuition, or a downward revelation. When it’s the upward intuition it’s often expressed symbolically, as maybe a fragmentary archetype. If reality is like a stained glass window, then the it’s a couple of panels, a shape or symbol, one or two colours.

In this analogy the scientific process looks at it through a microscope, so it says it’s glass when you do this here, it’s lead when you do it there, and these are the rules that will help to predict where the lead and glass will be based on what readings you’ve already taken. I think this is your cartesian rationalism.

When it’s the downward revelation, it’s a something of the story depicted on the window. So instead of a symbol representing something, it contains the symbolism itself in layers. It needs to be lit up from behind to make sense of it.

I’m not sure if that makes sense but it’s the only way I can think of putting it.
I need to think about that some more because I did not quite follow. I will simply say this - people in history who have played instrumental roles in these metaphysical developments are definitely important to identify, but we should also remember there are higher spiritual forces at work, not just one but many, if we are assuming any Judeo-Christian framework rooted in scripture. Perhaps that is what you are referring to as "downward revelation". We should also remember that we are not talking merely about the evolution of ideas within history, but rather than the evolution of the modes of consciousness which underlie those ideas.
The 'panentheist' position is entirely consistent with Judeo-Christian scripture-tradition and holds God as transcendent and immanent. It does not aim at dissolving anything of the present world into some underlying unconscious or 'merely aware' unity, yet remains aligned with metaphysical monism-idealism. And Nietzsche's metaphysics, as odd as it may seem, is also aligned with such a position.
As Steiner characterizes it:
Steiner wrote:The [rationalists] have split man into body and soul, have divided all existence into idea and reality. And they have made the soul, the spirit, the idea, into something especially valuable in order that they may despise the reality, the body all the more. But Zarathustra says, There is but one reality, but one body, and the soul is only something in the body, the ideal is only something in reality. Body and soul of man are a unity ; body and spirit spring from one root. The spirit is there only because a body is there, which has strength to develop the spirit in itself. As the plant unfolds the blossom from itself, so the body unfolds the spirit from itself.
Yes and I agree with this. The church is explicitly against gnosticism because of the way it splits body and spirit, with body being base and bad, and spirit being good and pure. It’s a complete unity, and a fundamental mistake when you have pop spirituality that separates the two as you often see in hollywood, whether it’s “Star Wars” or “Love, Pray, Eat”. As soon as the spiritual becomes something separate, a ‘secret energy’ disconnected from the body, it’s going to fail. Neither real Buddhism nor real Christianity have this separation.

However from my perspective there is a bigger picture where this unity of substance exists. Below are the waters of the universe, above are the waters of divine ideas, and we’re in the middle, playing our parts. It’s not a separation so much as a shape, like a cross where the horizontal is our lives, or even history. You can track history as a series of actions or a series of ideas, but they are not separate, they are just different aspects of the same thing.

Whether you say the cross is mind, or spirit it doesn’t really matter, it’s all contained in god and comes from god. My issue with most panentheism is that god becomes the cross in a conceptual way. It’s tricky though because I don’t think we have the language to describe the different types of mystical experience of unity with the waters (the vertical of the cross) and unity with god.
Right, there are generally two extremes of dualism - one that forsakes all that is 'physical' for all that is spiritual and one that does the opposite, i.e. reduces all that is spiritual to the 'physical' and effectively discards the spiritual, only paying lip service to its vague existence. The former is the Gnostic approach and the latter various post-Reformation Christian traditions in the West. Nietzsche was concerned with both but especially the latter, since it leads to world-conceptions which push to "liberate" the human soul-spirit from Earthly 'physical' existence and thereby negates all 'worldly' instincts, values and experiences.

I don't really follow the comment that under most panentheism "god becomes the cross in a conceptual way", can you elaborate?
AshvinP wrote: I don't see anything to quibble with in the above, and I am not trying to paint with too broad of a brush - there very well may be Protestant 'reformed' traditions which are more aligned with a participatory approach which could swing such traditions back into a truly life-affirming spirituality. The Pentecostal traditions come to mind. What's more important than identifying what traditions will end up where is just recognizing the broader habits of mind which can steer any and all traditions in a perilous direction.
Yes I think the participatory part is important. It’s very strange for me as I used to think of christianity as being very exoteric. But since becoming a catholic I find it drenched in “life affirming spirituality”. Once you get past the outward image of the mass, there is a deeper rhythm in the symbols and rituals of the eucharist that is something mysterious and real. The exact same shared spiritual celebration being performed by over a billion people every sunday, a point where the above meets the below on a monumental scale but each in a small way. Eucharistic adoration is like a well of affirming life. There are many aspects, things we do just in lent like stations of the cross, all of them mean nothing except by doing them. It’s like meditation, you can read all the books you like on it, but you have to put effort into doing it with one-pointed-mind before you start to understand what it’s about.
Agreed. That is at the heart of Nietzsche's critique - if we believe we are coming to spiritual Truth simply by ratiocination, as so many people in his day and throughout the 20th century have believed, we are only fooling ourselves.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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