What does the moral code of idealism look like?

[Soul_of_Shu]

Actually, the questions of structure are more complex. They would also have to include the patterns of wealth and power that largely determine the course of collective actions taken by a society. In this sense (but not necessarily in ultimate truth) we really do seem to have a mix, as when Jesus says, "Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's."

This just speaks to my point above that while BK's model is isomorphic to the structures of the natural world, e.g. the structure of a bee hive, such structure can't necessarily be extrapolated to the world of monetary wealth and political power, as these are based in metacognition, which is implicated in those natural structures being disrupted rather than propagated. So when you say that BK's model lacks structure, if instead what you mean to say is that it can't be extrapolated to account for the chaotic disruptive effect of metacognition on such natural structures, then I'd suggest that is not what his model is intended to address, as it only tends to address how we got to that point. So what you really find lacking in his model is your own PolSci conditioning, affinity and projection. Not surprisingly, you get truly turned on when he writes pieces in which he rips into the corrupted metacognition of Vatican politics, or other such dysfunctional quagmires that make a bee hive look like a model of ideal inter-beeing. In that regard, BK joining in with the likes of many other political commentators offering their preconditioned opinions doesn't do much for me.

As for Neil Thiese being totalling in sync with BK's version of idealism, I only know that he is familiar with it, having attended some of the same conferences, like Sages and Scientists, SAND, etc, and having sat on panels with BK listening to, and to some extent supporting his arguments. They've also both collaborated with Menas Kafatos, so there is that too. But if he fully grasps and embraces BK's ideas I can't claim to know for sure. As I recall, he also has an affinity for Kabbalah, given his cultural heritage.

[Ed Konderla]

At this point I feel like a meteorologist trying to predict the weather during a period of very unstable weather patterns. I loved this article not for it's discussion on what got us here but from the conclusions of where the writer or writers think we should be going. I was an automation engineer without a degree in anything (I still don't have a degree in anything). That occurred only because I had a unique ability to solve complex process control problems using the new fangled computers coming out. Prior to computers process control was done by human, pneumatic, electrical and mechanical devices. All of the time prior to 1977 when I left the US Air Force where I was a weapons control system technician on the F-4E Phantom fighter/ bomber very little in industry was done by computer. Cars were designed and built, oil was produced and refined, crops were planted, grown, harvested and distributed etc., etc. and that list of etc.'s is almost endless. Society was made up of millions of autonomous people and systems. Then computers came along and all of that went out the window. Now in plants that used to require a 100 operators you can do the job with 3. Then you had control loops that operated completely independently now are all interconnected. Back then you had a 100 operators that many of them understood how almost all of the systems worked to now you have 3 operators that don't have a clue. They have no more of a clue then the vast majority of people using computers understand how their computers work. When I play out where this is going in my mind using the data I collect now through the news and articles such as this I think humanity especially in technological society's is doomed. We have more and more self indulgent, self important people demanding more and more control and feel totally justified in destroying systems that don't meet their demands. More and more "equality" from people that produce nothing and don't have a clue of how anything is produced. What we now have happening on a global scale is Venezuela. I believe Venezuela is broken beyond repair and anybody that might have fixed it has left and is begging on the street corners in cities like Cuenca for food to feed their families.

Cool background that you have Ed. I had a friend who was an intuitive problem-solver. He spend his time split between being a backwoods hippie builder and a design engineer (with an art degree) at Lockheed-Martin, where he designed the solar masts for the international space station. Laughingly, he liked to say he did most of his research at the bait-and-tackle shop at the wharf where he contemplated fishing rods and various connectors.

I don't know how to evaluate your sense of high tech controlled systems but there surely seems to be something out-of-balance in the skew or screwed way modern systems distribute benefits and costs.

I have been extremely lucky to have walked the paths I have walked. Systems have always been screwed in their out of balance way they distribute benefits and costs. What has happened now is that we have an expectation that technology can fix that. I was a Texas public high school teacher for 4 years and a teacher at a community college for 2 years. At the high school I taught cabinet making and millwork for half a day (shop teacher) and computers and electronics for half a day. At the community college I taught Petroleum Technology. I was stunned by the lack of intellectual curiosity the students today seem to have. I've never had kids so I never was aware what was going on in public education. None of the students knew how anything worked and what was worse, didn't care. At that point in time I was a devout disciple of pushing kids into technology primarily because technology had been so good to me. Now I live in the middle of no place where my neighbors still plow with bulls, ride horses for transportation, have been poor all of their lives and fully expect to die poor. They have incredible kids. They have tiny houses with almost no furniture. I have one close neighbor couple about 65 years old that have never had electricity in their lives. However these houses are always full of happy smiling family and friends. Joeffre David, the 25 year old guy that has worked with me for 5 years is incredible. He works like a Trojan, is as honest as the day is long and smart as a whip. I teach him no technology. I research and attempt to teach him the latest on holistic gardening methods. I teach him crafts like welding and wood working but no technology because I think the basic knowledge this community has on how to survive without technology may come in very handy in the near future.

[Soul_of_Shu]

@Ed ... I do have one grandchild, and if it's any consolation, he is about as intellectually curious and creative as it gets, plays electric piano, composes songs using computer software, creates and plays in virtual worlds, and yet still loves exploring in nature, helping in the garden, and crafting things out of discarded stuff, all the while probably 10 times more knowledgeable in general than I was at his age, and not just about the techno-wizardry he has access to, as with most kids in Canada these days. I could be mistaken, but he just somehow seems to be wired differently, in some way that has never been the case before. So I'm not so sure it's as dire as it sometimes may appear to be, and these kids are actually what leave me with some hope for the future of this now inextricably connected global village in this electro-cyber age from which there's no turning back, on the verge of what seems an unprecedented shift in the evolution of consciousness ~ the outcome of which we old folks may not even be capable of grasping. Of course, we may all be headed towards mass extinction, but if not, then it's not going to be the grandparents that are figuring it out, but rather I can imagine my grandson working with those kids in Cuenca growing up to dream up some way to make it work for all concerned.

[Ed Konderla]

I accept what you are saying as far as your grandchild is concerned but I absolutely do not accept it as an accurate assessment of the population at large. In many of these comments I detect a sort of Pollyanna approach to reality that I don't share. I have my own reasons for why I think that is. When you move into supervision with ARCO they put you through two supervisor training courses in the first two years.. The second more advanced one is to dissect you psychology and emotionally for all to see including yourself. Due to the outcome of that course and a test they gave the psychologist/facilitator said I have a very rare personality. As I remember she called it a self correcting personality. She pointed out how rare it is for individuals to correct the path they are on. I can't say whether she was correct about me but I can say with absolute certainty I see modern society on a path that needs serious correcting and they have no ability to change the course. So in an effort to stay true to how I see things shaping up I will continue play the curmudgeon. I keep referring back to I think it was a book, maybe an article that I read a while back that stated that every time just prior to the caca hitting the fan in the last couple of hundred years there was a plethora of writers and poets that would start stating those same Pollyanna views. Views that humanity had spiritually rounded the corner and happy days are here again. I would hold on to you and your grandchild's hat if I were you.

[Soul_of_Shu]

@ Ed ... Well, my main point is that these are unprecedented times, on par with the former shift from pre-metacognition to metacognition, into an entirely novel way of cognizing ourselves and the world, and so all bets are off as to where it's all headed. It may well make the shift from geocentrism to heliocentrism, or from the Medieval age to the Gutenberg/industrial age, look like a minor event by comparison. We can no more imagine what is about to unfold than a cave-dwelling Neanderthal could imagine the world of today. So while I understand where you're coming from in being very skeptical about how this time is going to be truly different, I tend to keep an open mind. In any case, not sure either of us will be around to say 'I told you so', when it finally does play out as it eventually will, for better or for worse.

[Ed Konderla]

I apologize for my ignorance but I didn't understand half of what you just wrote! These times are unprecedented only in that humanity has gotten farther out on the limb than we ever have before as a world wide phenomenon and we have much larger and more powerful saws to cut that limb off behind us. What I can't decide is it better to die now so I can hurry up and get back in the game but on the other hand I don't want to miss the last act of this play. You may think I am joking but I am completely serious.

[Soul_of_Shu]

I apologize for my ignorance but I didn't understand half of what you just wrote!

Sorry, but I'm assuming that if you can grok Bernardo's body of work, then there is nothing in what I just wrote that should be incomprehensible. Mind you, even with BK's books, it has taken more than one reading to truly understand the profound implications of these ideas, and I'm not sure I've yet fully grasped those implications. Be that as it may, there are still times when I feel like I'm driving into the unknown future while focusing on the rearview mirror, only a good strategy if going backwards, which is no longer an option. So I tend now to focus on what I can do in the present to be an example of what is possible when it comes to, at the very least, not adding to the suffering.

[Ed Konderla]

I like Bernardo but I have no desire to be him or be like him. I certainly see nothing that he has done so far to show that he is in any way lighting the way. Like I say I search out the reluctant messiahs. I have much more faith in my ability to determine the physical future than I do in Bernardo's. That whole need to limit suffering colors one's vision because it is a need, a want. In my mind one has the choice of being effective or being a blind pacifist. I have read much on the holocaust and I have no desire to go peacefully. If I go I want to take some with me.

[Robert Arvay]

The real issue with humans is that deep in our psychology we are driven by ancient survival mechanisms that were developed by natural selection and . . . .
Eugene, I commend you for a well constructed posting.
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[Soul_of_Shu]

Well, as I see it, BK is passionately pointing toward a new way of cognizing ourselves and the world that he feels could actually be the difference that makes a difference, even as whether or not it can be realized remains an open question. I suspect that if he truly felt what he was offering has no efficacy whatsoever in 'lighting' a way forward, he would not be dedicating almost all his time and energy to endeavours such as the Essentia Foundation, or doing evermore pro-bono interviews to get the message into the cultural ethos. If he's at all reluctantly following is passion, it doesn't seem so.

That whole need to limit suffering colors one's vision because it is a need, a want.

It's not about feeling a need to do so, but rather that now just feels like what one is most naturally inclined to do, like on a sunny day feeling naturally inclined to be outside enjoying the sunshine, even though I don't need to do so.