Essay: Beyond the Flat M@L

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Marco Masi
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Re: Essay: Beyond the Flat M@L

Post by Marco Masi »

Cleric K wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:46 am Thank you Marco! I'll take a look.

In case you're not familiar, the following might be of interest:
I have on my desk the second one and struggling to find the time to read it... :) Thanks so far.
Anthony66
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Re: Essay: Beyond the Flat M@L

Post by Anthony66 »

Cleric K wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:09 pm :idea: The question of morality is also completely clear in Deep M@L. Morality is not some arbitrary rules decreed by a Divinity for humans to follow. Instead, it's the measure for our spiritual activity and whether it leads to greater harmonization and integration of the Cosmic perspective or the opposite. Since the Cosmos is one and the same thing with our deeper strata of consciousness, while we work on the integration of our perspective we are at the same time working for the moral development of the whole world. Here we shouldn't imagine that we turn away from the outer world and manipulate reality only from the spiritual depths. No - we draw the moral impulses from the spiritual depths and then manifest them through our own activity in the outer world.
In moral philosophy, the authority problem surrounds the question of how a moral system is enforced. For example, divine judgement is threatened against the wayward while the righteous are promised reward and favor. Is there a carrot or stick associated with the system you propose? I'm guessing "greater harmonization and integration" is the carrot especially when we realize we are but a perspective of this common deep mind.

Also is there any sense of "objective" morals if you are familiar with that argument? If I understand things, Steiner challenges us to be agents who act freely according to our developing moral imagination, not under some fixed timeless set of commandments. Would one understand that new ways of moral action would evolve through the eons?
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AshvinP
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Re: Essay: Beyond the Flat M@L

Post by AshvinP »

Anthony66 wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:42 pm
Cleric K wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:09 pm :idea: The question of morality is also completely clear in Deep M@L. Morality is not some arbitrary rules decreed by a Divinity for humans to follow. Instead, it's the measure for our spiritual activity and whether it leads to greater harmonization and integration of the Cosmic perspective or the opposite. Since the Cosmos is one and the same thing with our deeper strata of consciousness, while we work on the integration of our perspective we are at the same time working for the moral development of the whole world. Here we shouldn't imagine that we turn away from the outer world and manipulate reality only from the spiritual depths. No - we draw the moral impulses from the spiritual depths and then manifest them through our own activity in the outer world.
In moral philosophy, the authority problem surrounds the question of how a moral system is enforced. For example, divine judgement is threatened against the wayward while the righteous are promised reward and favor. Is there a carrot or stick associated with the system you propose? I'm guessing "greater harmonization and integration" is the carrot especially when we realize we are but a perspective of this common deep mind.

Also is there any sense of "objective" morals if you are familiar with that argument? If I understand things, Steiner challenges us to be agents who act freely according to our developing moral imagination, not under some fixed timeless set of commandments. Would one understand that new ways of moral action would evolve through the eons?

I came across a quote before but cannot figure out who said it (possibly Whitehead) - "all evil is truth which is out of season". That speaks to this notion of immorality as either premature grasping at eternal spiritual knowledge-wisdom or prolonged infancy and adolescence of spiritual knowledge-wisdom. It is all about striking the proper balance by adopting harmonizing perspective of the Christ-being and evolving through the phenomenal world into the spiritual.

The reason why freely developing our moral imagination and moral intuitions (which is essentially becoming fully conscious of them) will also lead to objective moral values is because we inhabit a truly shared spiritual realm of ideation, i.e. imaginations, inspirations, and intuitions. It is a rediscovering of those moral intuitions we (quite literally "we", due to reincarnation) first subconsciously projected into institutions of the physical world, but in full clarity of consciousness and therefore spiritual freedom.

I just wanted to comment briefly, and I am sure Cleric can add more.
“It is your presumption that freedom is something which you already possess that ensures that you will remain in chains."
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Cleric K
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Re: Essay: Beyond the Flat M@L

Post by Cleric K »

Anthony66 wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:42 pm In moral philosophy, the authority problem surrounds the question of how a moral system is enforced. For example, divine judgement is threatened against the wayward while the righteous are promised reward and favor. Is there a carrot or stick associated with the system you propose? I'm guessing "greater harmonization and integration" is the carrot especially when we realize we are but a perspective of this common deep mind.

Also is there any sense of "objective" morals if you are familiar with that argument? If I understand things, Steiner challenges us to be agents who act freely according to our developing moral imagination, not under some fixed timeless set of commandments. Would one understand that new ways of moral action would evolve through the eons?
Ashvin summed it up. I just would like to add another example. Ben recently said:
Ben Iscatus wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:33 am The notion that bliss and joy are only available to the elect I find unpleasant (often racism is part of this). A spiritual hierarchy also tends inevitably towards making moral judgements - (Cleric referred to Purity and Sewage for instance).
The problem always seem to stem from the fact that our soul and spirit are considered either non-existent or completely structureless. There's no other reason that one may find what I said about purity and sewage disagreeable. When we speak about the sensory world, the facts force us to take heed. For example, if we water our crops with gasoline, we can't expect good yields. There are things that are compatible or incompatible with proper biological functions. I hope everyone will agree that there's objective difference between a healthy plant and a diseased or dead plant. In an operation room the highest standards of sterility must be met. Is this some arbitrary value system, enforced by the elite? Well, maybe - if we consider the laws of Nature enforced system. The rooms where silicon chips are being manufactured are even more clean than the operation room. A single dust particle may ruin the process. Is the elite artificially introducing clean-room requirements so that they can drive competitors out of the market?

So we see that in the physical realm we have completely objective requirements depending on what we want to achieve. The peculiar characteristic of our age is that people simply don't want to conceive that our finer organization also has structure, organs, processes, belonging to corresponding environments.

Just as there are objective criteria for healthy and diseased biological life forms, so there are healthy and pathological soul processes. The soul and spirit realm are not made of some abstract energies that we can manipulate with particle accelerators. They are made of ... well, soul and spirit 'material', in other words - environments out of which our thoughts, feelings, will precipitate. The attunement of the latter is not a matter of some mechanical polishing, a kind of soul plastic surgery we can get in exchange of money. It is what we, individually make of ourselves. As far as we are beings with biological life we partake in the Natural order. But with our soul and spirit we partake in the Moral order of the Cosmos. What the physical laws are for the natural world, so are the moral laws for the soul and spirit world. They are not some rigid laws carved in stone as some commandments. They are the living realms within which our spiritual nature flows. They look like laws of social behavior only from our limited Earthly perspective, because we're still as children that need to be told not to poo into and eat from the same plate - that's how unaware we are of the ways reality works. On high there are living spiritual processes that shape the structure of our evolutionary matrix. When we conduct our thoughts, feelings and will in ways incompatible with these strata of reality, we experience the consequences - pain, suffering, torment, hopelessness, fear, death. These are not arbitrary punishments invented by some harsh God. These are natural things, as it is natural than one will bleed to death if his throat is slit. They are the intrinsic dynamics of worlds that people want to know nothing about. Yet this doesn't excuse them from the consequences, in the same way that fire would not excuse those who didn't know its laws. Fire burns without discrimination and says to man "you'll know better next time". The same words are spoken to us from the spiritual world but people don't yet know better.

Just look around, take a look at the excuse for a civilization that we're all part of. What sounds logical:
1/ The World is essentially mindless matter, so morality is purely human epiphenomenon consisting of emergent patterns of behavior of complex particle systems, aimed at optimizing social performance?
2/ MAL wanted to experience precisely this, so we shouldn't interfere?
3/ God created corrupt World so that he can send brand new souls for one-shot lives on Earth to test their faith?
4/ Reality isn't real so we can simply close our eyes and wait to wake up after death?
5/ We're part of development process and we have very serious holes in our understanding of what man is, what he is made of, how his body, soul and spirit function, how they are structured, what they should be nourished with?

If someone believes that it is elitist to recognize that a world based on lies corresponds to a diseased spiritual organism, breathing and drinking sewage, while a world based on pursuit of truth and the harmony of the facts, corresponds to a healthy vibrant spiritual organism, then I don't really have much to add.
Anthony66
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Re: Essay: Beyond the Flat M@L

Post by Anthony66 »

Cleric K wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:16 pm
Anthony66 wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:42 pm In moral philosophy, the authority problem surrounds the question of how a moral system is enforced. For example, divine judgement is threatened against the wayward while the righteous are promised reward and favor. Is there a carrot or stick associated with the system you propose? I'm guessing "greater harmonization and integration" is the carrot especially when we realize we are but a perspective of this common deep mind.

Also is there any sense of "objective" morals if you are familiar with that argument? If I understand things, Steiner challenges us to be agents who act freely according to our developing moral imagination, not under some fixed timeless set of commandments. Would one understand that new ways of moral action would evolve through the eons?
Ashvin summed it up. I just would like to add another example. Ben recently said:
Ben Iscatus wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:33 am The notion that bliss and joy are only available to the elect I find unpleasant (often racism is part of this). A spiritual hierarchy also tends inevitably towards making moral judgements - (Cleric referred to Purity and Sewage for instance).
The problem always seem to stem from the fact that our soul and spirit are considered either non-existent or completely structureless. There's no other reason that one may find what I said about purity and sewage disagreeable. When we speak about the sensory world, the facts force us to take heed. For example, if we water our crops with gasoline, we can't expect good yields. There are things that are compatible or incompatible with proper biological functions. I hope everyone will agree that there's objective difference between a healthy plant and a diseased or dead plant. In an operation room the highest standards of sterility must be met. Is this some arbitrary value system, enforced by the elite? Well, maybe - if we consider the laws of Nature enforced system. The rooms where silicon chips are being manufactured are even more clean than the operation room. A single dust particle may ruin the process. Is the elite artificially introducing clean-room requirements so that they can drive competitors out of the market?

So we see that in the physical realm we have completely objective requirements depending on what we want to achieve. The peculiar characteristic of our age is that people simply don't want to conceive that our finer organization also has structure, organs, processes, belonging to corresponding environments.

Just as there are objective criteria for healthy and diseased biological life forms, so there are healthy and pathological soul processes. The soul and spirit realm are not made of some abstract energies that we can manipulate with particle accelerators. They are made of ... well, soul and spirit 'material', in other words - environments out of which our thoughts, feelings, will precipitate. The attunement of the latter is not a matter of some mechanical polishing, a kind of soul plastic surgery we can get in exchange of money. It is what we, individually make of ourselves. As far as we are beings with biological life we partake in the Natural order. But with our soul and spirit we partake in the Moral order of the Cosmos. What the physical laws are for the natural world, so are the moral laws for the soul and spirit world. They are not some rigid laws carved in stone as some commandments. They are the living realms within which our spiritual nature flows. They look like laws of social behavior only from our limited Earthly perspective, because we're still as children that need to be told not to poo into and eat from the same plate - that's how unaware we are of the ways reality works. On high there are living spiritual processes that shape the structure of our evolutionary matrix. When we conduct our thoughts, feelings and will in ways incompatible with these strata of reality, we experience the consequences - pain, suffering, torment, hopelessness, fear, death. These are not arbitrary punishments invented by some harsh God. These are natural things, as it is natural than one will bleed to death if his throat is slit. They are the intrinsic dynamics of worlds that people want to know nothing about. Yet this doesn't excuse them from the consequences, in the same way that fire would not excuse those who didn't know its laws. Fire burns without discrimination and says to man "you'll know better next time". The same words are spoken to us from the spiritual world but people don't yet know better.

Just look around, take a look at the excuse for a civilization that we're all part of. What sounds logical:
1/ The World is essentially mindless matter, so morality is purely human epiphenomenon consisting of emergent patterns of behavior of complex particle systems, aimed at optimizing social performance?
2/ MAL wanted to experience precisely this, so we shouldn't interfere?
3/ God created corrupt World so that he can send brand new souls for one-shot lives on Earth to test their faith?
4/ Reality isn't real so we can simply close our eyes and wait to wake up after death?
5/ We're part of development process and we have very serious holes in our understanding of what man is, what he is made of, how his body, soul and spirit function, how they are structured, what they should be nourished with?

If someone believes that it is elitist to recognize that a world based on lies corresponds to a diseased spiritual organism, breathing and drinking sewage, while a world based on pursuit of truth and the harmony of the facts, corresponds to a healthy vibrant spiritual organism, then I don't really have much to add.
Thanks Cleric, that was very helpful.
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