Essay: Beyond the Flat M@L

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Lou Gold
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Re: Essay: Beyond the Flat M@L

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AshvinP wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:38 pm
Lou Gold wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:20 pm There's no need for "bad" logoses. Good and evil is not a fundamental duality. Closer to the Center we have simply differentiated and interacting potential. Evil manifests much farther down the road when the perspectives become so fragmented that they can't trace the consequences of their activity.

Can you name something that does not have an opposite?
Can you name a 'thing' which does not reveal more about itself upon closer examination? For one, a 'thing' always becomes a process upon examination. Good is the process of knowing integration while Evil is the process of fragmentation as Cleric said. The latter allows us to be deceived into thinking we are not being harmed when harming others, because we cannot "trace the consequences". Otherwise, we would always desire to act in concert with the integrative forces of Reality.
As for that which does not have an opposite - how about existence? Or consciousness? Claims to non-existence or phenomenal non-consciousness are immediately self-defeating.

In silence, yes, and when you name them, no.

Good is the process of knowing integration while Evil is the process of fragmentation

Tell that to the compost.
Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love
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Lou Gold
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Re: Essay: Beyond the Flat M@L

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I found this interesting piece from Ken Wilber that may have relevance here.
Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love
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Cleric K
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Re: Essay: Beyond the Flat M@L

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Eugene I wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:53 pm OK, we finally arrived at the most interesting and key topic: can we penetrate into reality any further beyond the ground-base "pixels" of the direct perceptional experience and beyond our rational and intuitive thinking and imaginations with which we always strive to extrapolate the reality beyond the pixels? I do not know any other ways to know other than the direct experience of phenomena and cognition (that includes rational and intuitive thinking and imaginations). I can't claim that this is all that can be available to conscious beings. You seem to claim that you possess some other mysterious experiential-cognitive faculties that allow you to acquire deeper knowledge of the world of ideas/causes behind the "screen" of perceptions, and I admit that I do not have such abilities. Since I have no confirmation of such faculties based on my own experience, I have no grounds to believe you, but on the other hand, have no grounds to prove you wrong either, so my only option is to remain agnostic and indecisive about it. But of course, being a long-time meditator, I always observe and try to get insight into the origins, root causes and interconnectedness of the thinking and perceptional phenomena of my direct experience, I always try to push the boundary and look behind the screen using my intuition. But being honest with myself, I never fully believe that my intuitions are fully true. I'm aware of the interconnectedness of all things in the universe, but honestly do not know and never claim to know how exactly this interconnectedness works "behind the screen" of thinking and perceptions. In Buddhism this is simply called "dependent co-arising of phenomena". We can always trace causal patterns in our stream of phenomena (using our intuition of scientific models), nevertheless I can not know for sure how exactly this patterns are produced - whether it's a result of a super-computer simulation, or some natural forces, or a process of ideations in the divine mind.
There's nothing mysterious (in the sense of inexplicable) in the higher cognition. In fact, it's the most logical, consistent and satisfying process of development one can go through. Mathematics look mysterious to someone who has no experience in it and it'll forever remain mysterious unless they try to form at least a general idea.

The thing is that higher order perceptions emerge not when we penetrate behind the screen of phenomena 'in front' of us but 'behind our face' (in the sense of the Deep M@L picture). No matter how hard we stare at the screen of consciousness, all we ever discover there will be the "dependent co-arising of phenomena." We can only observe and think about the phenomena. Higher cognition is found not by staring at the screen and expecting some exotic and never seen before patterns, but by, so to speak, following the direction from which our "I" speaks forth the thoughts. It's the opposite direction of the screen. It would be very misleading if we imagine that we'll find the explanation of our consciousness by perceiving some processes on the screen of consciousness, in the way the neuroscientists wants to see them in front of him, in the interaction of neurons.
I won't repeat here what I've said in my other essay. This process is very gradual and leads first and foremost to self-knowledge. Only gradually within the depth of M@L we find the Cosmos. The first thing we see is the workings of our own psyche. When we think normally, most of the time we're not aware why we think the things we think and why we think them in the way we do. We live with the perceptions of our thoughts. When we step 'backwards' through the proper meditative methods we begin to sense more and more of the shaping factors of our cognition. Initially these are quite trivial - simple habits of thought, sympathies and antipathies and so on.
This already shows why such kind of self-development is not very popular. It's simply that people don't want to gain real knowledge of their being in such an intimate way. They would much rather imagine some fancy energies, dimensions, etc. and assume these are somehow responsible for their inner experience. And the Eastern methods of meditation (especially in the way they are imported and adapted in the West) don't do much to help the process. In fact, after a practitioner has spent years to de-identify with anything coming out of the ego, the last thing they would like to consider is that it is precisely the processes behind the face of the ego that must be investigated and which lead to the depths of M@L. The overemphasis on the mystical state simply puts the ego temporarily to sleep. It's true that much can be learned on the gradient between waking consciousness and the mystical. By overcoming the obstacles - desires, patterns of thought, etc. - that prevent us to reach the inner tranquility, we gain a lot of self-knowledge. But once the tranquility is achieved this acquisition of self-knowledge slows down and sometimes even halts - depending on how strongly we consider that we have completely overcome the ego. Yet in our ordinary life we can't help but use our ego, thoughts, feelings, actions. We are much more aware of them, thanks of meditation, but still don't know why we have the temperament we have, why we have decided to follow one spiritual school rather than another, why we have associated with some friends and not others, and so on. All these things still exist behind the face of ego and they can be explored but because we can easily achieve the tranquil state, we're not motivated to dig any further in the workings of the ego - it seems that such a thing is entirely optional (a form of curiosity) and lies quite sideways from the real goals. Yet this is precisely the center offset that I illustrated in the essay. M@L should really become concentric with the ego and gradually unveil how spiritual forces flow from behind the face of the ego. This of course raises the question of the higher Self and the higher worlds. Here it should be mentioned that even though I often compare the development of higher cognition with the development of mathematical abilities, this doesn't mean that the former is of the same dry and abstract character. We can never make progress in these domains unless we reach as logical necessity that what lies behind our ego-face must be considered in the most real sense as sacred. It's the Holy of Holies. We can never approach the depth of M@L with a colonial tomb raider attitude. What lies behind our ego-face, even though of the same essential nature, is higher than our ego and can be approached only in humility, mood of prayer and child-like openness.

My goal above is not to prove anything but only to indicate the kind of ideas that we need to reckon with if we are to grasp something about the direction from which higher cognition manifests. If we are clear why we don't want to consider that direction seriously, we'll at least know why the results spoken from there sound mysterious or as fantasies.
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Cleric K
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Re: Essay: Beyond the Flat M@L

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Lou Gold wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:20 pm There's no need for "bad" logoses. Good and evil is not a fundamental duality. Closer to the Center we have simply differentiated and interacting potential. Evil manifests much farther down the road when the perspectives become so fragmented that they can't trace the consequences of their activity.

Can you name something that does not have an opposite?
We've been through this. The vertical axis of the cross is the same axis of depth (passing through the Center and the face) of Deep M@L.
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Eugene I
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Re: Essay: Beyond the Flat M@L

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Cleric, right, I get it. In simple words there is a higher-level Self behind the scenes of our human ego-self, and most of us intuitively know it and feel it. On that higher level the Self is no longer identified with our human ego-self and its patterns and it is much more interconnected with the Self of other beings and the Self of the Source, so that at some level the boundaries become fuzzy and the unity and harmony prevails over the divisions and dissonances. This is a path of transfiguration/transformation of ego-self into the higher Self.

But there is a level that transcends even the Self, from which the Self becomes transparent and seen for what it is - a construct of cognitive patterns and ideations, albeit patterns and ideations of a harmonious higher-level cognition. Once transcended, it does not cease to live and function, it is not rejected or annihilated, but the liberation from its patterns on a higher level is still attained, allowing it to be transformed into a liberated Self. One may argue: what is the point of transcending the Self if there seems to be no issues at the Self-level of cognition where the harmony and sense of unity is already achieved? There is no answer to that, transcending the Self is entirely optional and it is no better or worse than settling with the Self. It's just an available option, another path to traverse for anyone who wants to attain the ultimate freedom and explore those liberated levels of consciousness. And from that level, without loosing that freedom and perspective, the path goes back to the life of the Self that will continue in a full sense, but with the Self not being bound, defined and conditioned by its own patterns, no matter how good they may be. This is a path of transfiguration/transformation of the higher Self into the liberated higher Self.

It is even possible that the breakthrough into the level behind the Self is not achievable in the discarnate state of Self exactly because it is so harmonious that there is no motivation whatsoever to move way from it any further. That is why the breakthrough might be practically only possible in the incarnate state where our suffering, conditioning by conflicting cognitive patterns and disharmony become strong motivations for seeking the ultimate liberation. And once we realize our innate freedom in the nature of consciousness, all kinds of self - both ego-self and higher Self, become transcended and transfigured into the form of the liberated Self.
"Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kanzas anymore" Dorothy
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Lou Gold
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Re: Essay: Beyond the Flat M@L

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Cleric K wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:52 pm
Lou Gold wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:20 pm There's no need for "bad" logoses. Good and evil is not a fundamental duality. Closer to the Center we have simply differentiated and interacting potential. Evil manifests much farther down the road when the perspectives become so fragmented that they can't trace the consequences of their activity.

Can you name something that does not have an opposite?
We've been through this. The vertical axis of the cross is the same axis of depth (passing through the Center and the face) of Deep M@L.
Not to recycle through old circles I've come to wonder about a possible language problem anchored to one's personal process, for example to whether one feels as a human being becoming more a spiritual being or as a spiritual being figuring out how to be human. In my case, not because of enlightenment but because of aging and being in a physical "falling apart" zone, the downward view toward my animal self and the need to balance amongst various vulnerabilities and contradictions has definitely impacted my sense of directional priority, making ascent the less important. Interestingly, contrary to my expectations, I've found the downward view less as a limitation than as a whole new and quite valuable school.
Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love
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AshvinP
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Re: Essay: Beyond the Flat M@L

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Lou Gold wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:45 pm
AshvinP wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:38 pm Good is the process of knowing integration while Evil is the process of fragmentation
Tell that to the compost.
If we continue to think naively that the isolated 'things' are the real relations, i.e. materialism-dualism, then none of it will ever make sense, especially not "good and evil". Compost is clearly an aspect of a higher integrative process.
“It is your presumption that freedom is something which you already possess that ensures that you will remain in chains."
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Lou Gold
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Re: Essay: Beyond the Flat M@L

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AshvinP wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:22 am
Lou Gold wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:45 pm
AshvinP wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:38 pm Good is the process of knowing integration while Evil is the process of fragmentation
Tell that to the compost.
If we continue to think naively that the isolated 'things' are the real relations, i.e. materialism-dualism, then none of it will ever make sense, especially not "good and evil". Compost is clearly an aspect of a higher integrative process.
Location, location, location. The view from below is naively fragmented and the view from on-high is integrative. OTOH, there's not much composting going on in the heavens. Are we human beings figuring out how to be spiritual; the reverse; something of both?
Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love
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Cleric K
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Re: Essay: Beyond the Flat M@L

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Eugene I wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:34 pm But there is a level that transcends even the Self, from which the Self becomes transparent and seen for what it is - a construct of cognitive patterns and ideations, albeit patterns and ideations of a harmonious higher-level cognition. Once transcended, it does not cease to live and function, it is not rejected or annihilated, but the liberation from its patterns on a higher level is still attained, allowing it to be transformed into a liberated Self.
...
And once we realize our innate freedom in the nature of consciousness, all kinds of self - both ego-self and higher Self, become transcended and transfigured into the form of the liberated Self.
Eugene, I think we speak of very different kinds of transcendence here :)
What you say sounds a little like transcendence is a matter of being fed up with ego-life and deciding to do something more interesting after death. I'll try to draw a picture of what we need to pass through in order to reach a point that really transcends our perspective within the Solar system.

As said in the previous post, our initial experiences behind our ego-face are quite trivial and much more like self-psychoanalysis. We're simply being more and more objective about our soul organism - our ideas, desires, opinions, prejudices, motives, etc. But through intellectual analysis we can go only to a certain length. From then on we already need the forms of higher cognition. We have to cognize through pictorial Imaginations the deeper structure of being. Here we can use again as analogy my IFS post.
As we assume our stable position within the psychic realm we're in position to discern that different domains of our soul and spirit life have different structure. So to speak, we're in different 'parts' of our soul when we think and feel about our personal life and survival, about our relations with friends and family, about humanity as a whole and the great evolutionary journey of the man. When we begin to discern these different forms of spiritual activity we begin to recognize Imaginatively the soul organs.
As we further distance from our personal life, the soul organs also become something different. As long as we experience the organs in relation to the physical and life body we can truly experience them in geometrical relations along the length of the body. But the more we turn our focus away from the physical and life bodies, it can be said that the soul organs can be described much more faithfully as spheres within spheres. Not only that but these spheres are practically no other but the planetary spheres (Harmony of the Spheres). The experience within the depths of M@L is now in the most real sense Cosmic.
What is called the Moon sphere is the first layer that we go through. If we have to bring this to some spatial relations it can be said that this sphere of consciousness encompasses a sphere centered at the Earth and encompassing the orbit of our Moon. I'm mentioning this only in order to point attention that the physical Cosmos is only the mineral shadow of the spiritual spheres. There're many things to be said about the ways in which the spiritual becomes spatial but now it's not the time. Within our current fourth iteration/eon of evolution, this Moon sphere is the reverberation of the third iteration. We can only be conscious there through Imaginative consciousness. It's the soul or astral world. Here we come to know the part of our higher self that is called Manas or Spirit-Self.
Beyond that we reach the Sun sphere which is the proper Spiritual world, world of Inspirative consiousness, the archetypal beings raying out their creative ideas forming the matrix of planetary life. This sphere is the reverberation of the second eon of evolution. Here we come to know the part of the higher Self called Buddhi or Spirit-Life.
Then we reach the Saturn sphere, the higher Spiritual world, world of Intuitive consciousness, reverberation of the first eon. Here we behold the perspective of Atma or Spirit-Man - the archetypal Cosmic Man within whose sphere of consciousness the whole evolutionary drama unfolds. This is also called in Christian esoterism the Domain of the Father. The unity of the Sun sphere is called the domain of the Son. The unity of the Moon sphere is called the domain of the Holy Spirit.

There's no way one can pass through these spheres of being 'without noticing'. To imagine that we simply transcend our self by having enough of Earthly affairs and hoping to find something more to our liking after death can only be supported by very superficial understanding of what we are. Here again we're misled by spatial relations. Just because we imagine that we can carry our physical body across the Cosmos on a rocket, we imagine that we can take our atom-like consciousness anywhere we want. The facts of the higher worlds show that our consciousness is made of the 'substance' of the spheres. There's nothing that we can take 'outside' unless we grow out beyond the inside. And this growing out is a very long process of the whole Solar evolution. Not only that but the forces that can support our desire for premature transcendence exist only as far as the Moon sphere. We can never step into the proper world of Inspiration (Sun sphere, the world of archetypal beings) as long as we feel the desire to follow our own path. This is not some capitulation at the powers of higher authorities but simple and lucid realization that the whole idea of personal path is an illusion. We can support that illusion only as long as we refuse to see the bigger picture. Sooner or later life will teach us how reality stands but it may take a lot of disappointments and suffering. Once we behold the work that the higher beings perform we understand that the most amazing personal path is the one that takes creative part, in complete freedom, in the great Cosmic work. This can be felt even in purely Earthly deeds. There's a very different quality of satisfaction when we do something only for our own interest, and when we feel how our work contributes to something much larger than us.

Once again - the above is not given as a proof but only to hint how different things stand when we begin to pursue the direction that leads 'behind the face' and into the deep Spheres of M@L (which at the same time are Cosmically big, no geometric diagram can capture the real facts). If one wants to place a bet and see how it goes after death - everyone is free. But let it at least be known that the direction in which these things can be found is always at hand. Nothing stands between it and us except we ourselves.
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Cleric K
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Re: Essay: Beyond the Flat M@L

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Lou Gold wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:21 am OTOH, there's not much composting going on in the heavens. Are we human beings figuring out how to be spiritual; the reverse; something of both?
The whole Creation begins with 'composting'. The archetypal timeless ideas reflect into multiplicity, which is archetypal 'composting'. What is the sensory image of the world, except the composted Eden? Within this world of multiplicity new and unique paths of integration evolve back into wholeness. We live in the composted Eden in bodies made of composted Eden matter. To find the spiritual means to recognize this fact as reality. We're not living in a different, parallel world. It's the same Eden experienced from within the deep composting process. Yet through our spiritual life we can discover in every sensory form the concealed and metamorphosed Eden. In the same way we can recognize and Love the living soul even in someone who because of destiny happens to be locked in a crippled body.

Here's a though on the topic from a spiritual master:
"Old age is generally considered to be something of an ordeal, and this is certainly the case for most people, for they have not lived in harmony with the divine laws. But in fact, old age can actually be the best period of your life. For those who have nurtured a high ideal throughout their youth and middle years, many things, such as understanding and clarity of thought, improve considerably in old age. How can that be? It is as though the brain does not evolve along the same lines as the body. Legs, eyes and ears begin to let you down, but the life of the soul and the spirit becomes increasingly abundant and rich, as if we were at last reaping the rewards of our efforts. So, prepare yourselves, think about living the right way while you are young so as to benefit from the abundant rewards to come in later life."
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