Essay: Beyond the Flat M@L

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Cleric K
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Re: Essay: Beyond the Flat M@L

Post by Cleric K »

Lou Gold wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:50 pm This would be a reasonable analysis if you accept Taoism as already having presented a superior insight. We need not wait a few centuries for ever-more painful trials-and-errors, these insights and others (like the more Shamanic views of the Kogi Elder Brothers) have already been given. This was not deliberate ignorance. It was and is superior spiritual insight. Do you accept it as such and that there exist many types of spiritual science?

And, yes, growing older for myself is packed full of insights that I didn't particularly arrive at by applying a science other than simply paying attention in an increasingly downward-pointing direction, not by figuring out how to be more spiritual but by figuring out how to be more human.
Lou, if after so many things that I've written here, still nothing is clear, there's no need keep circling. If your soul doesn't resonate with these things - that's OK. It's not my goal to 'convert' anybody.
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Lou Gold
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Re: Essay: Beyond the Flat M@L

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Cleric K wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:43 pm
Lou Gold wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:50 pm This would be a reasonable analysis if you accept Taoism as already having presented a superior insight. We need not wait a few centuries for ever-more painful trials-and-errors, these insights and others (like the more Shamanic views of the Kogi Elder Brothers) have already been given. This was not deliberate ignorance. It was and is superior spiritual insight. Do you accept it as such and that there exist many types of spiritual science?

And, yes, growing older for myself is packed full of insights that I didn't particularly arrive at by applying a science other than simply paying attention in an increasingly downward-pointing direction, not by figuring out how to be more spiritual but by figuring out how to be more human.
Lou, if after so many things that I've written here, still nothing is clear, there's no need keep circling. If your soul doesn't resonate with these things - that's OK. It's not my goal to 'convert' anybody.
You seem to be evading my question but I'm not sure, so I'll ask again. I completely accept that you are not trying to convert anyone. I am asking if you accept that there are many valid scientific ways (and directions) to obtain spiritual knowledge? I completely accept that there is one way for you and that you know for certain what is your path. Now, I'm asking a question of judgement. Do you accept that there are different completely valid paths for others?
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Marco Masi
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Re: Essay: Beyond the Flat M@L

Post by Marco Masi »

Very nice. You display a powerful clarity of mind with spiritual insight. Something (still) seldom these days... I like also the methodological approach to losen the dogma of principles of parsimony. This has done so much harm in science and philosophy that it is time to question this critically. Great also that someone in the Western philosophy of mind thinks in terms of "higher forms of cognition". Something that, again, has always been cut away with Occam's razor as a "non necessary hypothesis" by so many. You wirte a lot about archetypes.... just wondering if you are acquainted with Wolfgang Goethe's natural philosophy? I wonder also if, after polishing the essay, it would make sense to publish it (eventually with BK)? Could be a valuable synthesis of BK's idealism with cosmopsychism and beyond. You have done a good job. Continue on this way.
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Cleric K
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Re: Essay: Beyond the Flat M@L

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Lou Gold wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:36 pm You seem to be evading my question but I'm not sure, so I'll ask again. I completely accept that you are not trying to convert anyone. I am asking if you accept that there are many valid scientific ways (and directions) to obtain spiritual knowledge? I completely accept that there is one way for you and that you know for certain what is your path. Now, I'm asking a question of judgement. Do you accept that there are different completely valid paths for others?
Lou, I answered the exact same question to you some time ago (can't find the post unfortunately). You didn't accept my explanation then, I doubt you'll do it now. But anyway, here's one more try.

There are countless possible ways we can conduct our spiritual activity here on Earth. Through the history of humanity the various peoples have found their own ways to keep the link with the invisible worlds.
Today we're talking about a different kind of link. Think of it this way: you experience your "I". Now you have sympathy for the Santo Daime tradition. You also have sympathy and acceptance for all other traditions but you have chosen this. Yet even if you switch to another you'll still be your "I". You'll change the rituals, songs, etc. You'll still seek connection with the Great Mysteriousness but the essence of your "I"-experience will be the same. There's something that's still the same even if you may have changed outer forms.

In our age we're stepping into an epoch where the link can take altogether different character. Now it's possible not only to align your "I" in loving surrender to the GM but is possible to penetrate behind the face of your "I" (in the sense of the Deep M@L picture). This means to attain to fully conscious spiritual cognition of the processes that make your Earthly self 'tick'. It's no more about the experience of the pixels on the screen of consciousness, the 'output' where you experience your thoughts, but the underlying spiritual forces that shape how Earthly Lou thinks and feels.

Now you ask me if there are different completely valid paths for others. I said it before, I'll repeat it here - if you're asking if there are different valid ways that one can conduct their Earthly life in a harmonious, diligent, conscientious, loving and caring way - yes - they are countless of them. If you ask me if there are different completely valid paths that lead to the reality behind our ego-face - no, there aren't. There may be different flavors, different vocabularies, appropriate for different people - here I speak about M@L, to someone else I'll speak about Christ - but the direction is always one. Why? Because there's only one "I". There are infinite possible thoughts that the "I" can think but if we trace the thoughts to their origin we always reach the same being. For the same reason there's only one direction we can go if we are to investigate the reality behind that "I"-being. There are countless roles, countless religions, countless spiritual traditions that the "I" can clothe itself with but when it's a matter to turn around and explore the reality behind the "I", there's only one path. There are many different ways to approach the gate but there's only one way to cross the threshold of the gate - because the gate is one, just as the "I" is one.
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Cleric K
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Re: Essay: Beyond the Flat M@L

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Marco Masi wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:02 pm Very nice. You display a powerful clarity of mind with spiritual insight. Something (still) seldom these days... I like also the methodological approach to losen the dogma of principles of parsimony. This has done so much harm in science and philosophy that it is time to question this critically. Great also that someone in the Western philosophy of mind thinks in terms of "higher forms of cognition". Something that, again, has always been cut away with Occam's razor as a "non necessary hypothesis" by so many. You wirte a lot about archetypes.... just wondering if you are acquainted with Wolfgang Goethe's natural philosophy? I wonder also if, after polishing the essay, it would make sense to publish it (eventually with BK)? Could be a valuable synthesis of BK's idealism with cosmopsychism and beyond. You have done a good job. Continue on this way.
Thank you for your positive feedback, Marco! Much appreciated.

I'm acquainted with Goethe primarily through Steiner's books on him, which do a great job to put his philosophy in perspective. As it's known Goethe didn't lay out his philosophy in some formal way. It's much rather than one has to read between the lines to get into the soul of Goethe and experience how he experienced reality. Something which is practically impossible for most, especially in our superficial age.

As others also suggested, I dropped a PM to BK but I've no response at this point.
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Eugene I
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Re: Essay: Beyond the Flat M@L

Post by Eugene I »

Well, it looks like we just have to peacefully accept the fact that Christianity is an exclusive religion which will never give up on its exclusivity claims. Notwithstanding its exclusivity claims it still has all rights to exist just like any other path. But that does not mean that any other path has to agree with the exclusivity of Christianity. Sounds like a tautology, duhh :D
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AshvinP
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Re: Essay: Beyond the Flat M@L

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Cleric K wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:06 pm
Marco Masi wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:02 pm Very nice. You display a powerful clarity of mind with spiritual insight. Something (still) seldom these days... I like also the methodological approach to losen the dogma of principles of parsimony. This has done so much harm in science and philosophy that it is time to question this critically. Great also that someone in the Western philosophy of mind thinks in terms of "higher forms of cognition". Something that, again, has always been cut away with Occam's razor as a "non necessary hypothesis" by so many. You wirte a lot about archetypes.... just wondering if you are acquainted with Wolfgang Goethe's natural philosophy? I wonder also if, after polishing the essay, it would make sense to publish it (eventually with BK)? Could be a valuable synthesis of BK's idealism with cosmopsychism and beyond. You have done a good job. Continue on this way.
Thank you for your positive feedback, Marco! Much appreciated.

I'm acquainted with Goethe primarily through Steiner's books on him, which do a great job to put his philosophy in perspective. As it's known Goethe didn't lay out his philosophy in some formal way. It's much rather than one has to read between the lines to get into the soul of Goethe and experience how he experienced reality. Something which is practically impossible for most, especially in our superficial age.

As others also suggested, I dropped a PM to BK but I've no response at this point.
Cleric - you may want to get a Twitter account and tweet the essay at him. That's what I did for my nihilism post and he "liked" it, which I am taking to mean he at least skimmed it. Or if you want I can do it for you on my account, since he should recognize my Twitter name.
Last edited by AshvinP on Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Essay: Beyond the Flat M@L

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

Cleric K wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:06 pmAs others also suggested, I dropped a PM to BK but I've no response at this point.

BK is not likely to be checking in here on any regular basis. Last time I checked in with him, he was not considering essay submissions to his blog, being too busy with the Essentia website. As you likely know, the standard for submissions to Essentia is set quite high, as follows ... https://www.essentiafoundation.org/submissions/ ... so not sure your essay would meet the criteria.

But I'll send him an email to get an update, and suggest that he check his PMs here.
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
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Cleric K
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Re: Essay: Beyond the Flat M@L

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AshvinP wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:29 pm Or if you want I can do it for you on my account, since he should recognize my Twitter name.
I'll leave that decision to you, Ashvin. Personally I don't try to push anything. For me it's difficult to judge if this essay is of any value because these things are the a,b,c. There's nothing new that one can't find in other ways if he looks.
Soul_of_Shu wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:32 pm BK is not likely to be checking in here on any regular basis. Last time I checked in with him, he was not considering essay submissions to his blog, being too busy with the Essentia website. As you likely know, the standard for submissions to Essentia is set quite high, as follows ... https://www.essentiafoundation.org/submissions/ ... so not sure your essay would meet the criteria.

But I'll send him an email to get an update, and suggest that he check his PMs here.
I relied that when one gets a PM, an email notification is also received by default (unless he turned that off).
Yeah Essentia won't do. I need philosophical academic background to classify :D
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AshvinP
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Re: Essay: Beyond the Flat M@L

Post by AshvinP »

Cleric K wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:51 pm
AshvinP wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:29 pm Or if you want I can do it for you on my account, since he should recognize my Twitter name.
I'll leave that decision to you, Ashvin. Personally I don't try to push anything. For me it's difficult to judge if this essay is of any value because these things are the a,b,c. There's nothing new that one can't find in other ways if he looks.
I'll give it a go. I think the essay poses unique challenges to Flat M@L concept that BK has not heard before, or has not publicly acknowledged before. It may eventually open up new avenues of idealist discussion in BK's ever-widening spheres of influence.
“It is your presumption that freedom is something which you already possess that ensures that you will remain in chains."
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