On the Nihilism of Belief

[Soul_of_Shu]

Now this is only a bad outcome if one has a preconceived notion of what a correct outcome is. In the Warriors Path one only, only, only learns from hardship. So in one way one can say when the caca hits the fan school will be open with a vengeance.

So now I'm curious, with this belief whereby one only learns from hardship, which then leads to 'school' being open, what is potentially attained from school being open? And if not including the realization of our essential nature, what difference would it make to dispel the spell of maya at the root of the wrecking, without which we carry on none the wiser?

[Ed Konderla]

Learning, like dying is an individual experience. One time a friend told me he had read there are about 4200 recognized religions. I have no way to know if that is correct but if there are that is a lot of different beliefs. So my beliefs are different than yours. Not surprising and I don't think there is any way to reach consensus. Varity is ....

[Soul_of_Shu]

Learning, like dying is an individual experience. One time a friend told me he had read there are about 4200 recognized religions. I have no way to know if that is correct but if there are that is a lot of different beliefs. So my beliefs are different than yours. Not surprising and I don't think there is any way to reach consensus.

In which case I can only add that I certainly don't underestimate the power of belief, most especially when proliferated in a majority of alter-mode minds (case in point the belief of materialism), to make of the world a hell reflected back at us in the mirror of reality 'out there'. As such, the reflection can only change insofar as the belief is changed. And I'm not yet seeing how your belief is different in that regard.

In any case, one trusts that the path of the warrior is efficacious in revealing our essential nature as this conscious unicity, and in dispelling the spell of maya with its veils of separation ~ as an indelible experiential realization, rather than just some intellectual inkling ~ otherwise I'm not sure what benefit it has, if it only perpetuates the us-vs-them wars that are based in the spell of maya, in the absence of that revelation.

[Ed Konderla]

I can't argue with your words because I don't know what they mean.

[Soul_of_Shu]

I can't argue with your words because I don't know what they mean.

Yes, it seems we might as well be speaking different languages ... Nevertheless, your reference to the path of the warrior did jog the mind this morning, recalling a book titled Shambhala: The Path of the Sacred Warrior, by Chogyam Trungpa, circa 1984, which indeed I found among the texts on 6X12 shelf. However, being at least 35 years since I read it, I must confess that its content has faded into the mists of time. But in perusing it again, curiously enough I discovered that the 1st chapter is titled Creating an Enlightened Society, the core message of which doesn't really seem to contradict the message I'm attempting to convey, albeit perhaps not well enough, here in our conversations ~ if enlightenment is considered to be the realization of our essential nature as this conscious unicity, and the dispelling of the spell of maya. Anyway, I'm now inspired to continue revisiting its pages, to see if perhaps therein I might find some common ground upon which to continue our attempts at some mutual understanding. And if by any chance you've read it, I'm certainly interested in your take on how it jibes with your belief.

[AshvinP]

As far as the train wreck is concerned being good for humanity that requires there to be a correct outcome in a correct time line. I don't believe in either of those. In the west we have a priesthood that more and more is coming from the ranks of lawyers and therapists. This priesthood receives large sums of money to create a nobel victim class. As is in any church there is a competition to see who is the most holy and in this case who is the greater victim. The Warriors path does not allow for victims. In fact that is considered the biggest mistake one can make is to see yourself as a victim and to see anyone else as one. I won't bore you with the details. Now on the other hand we have a major part of the world's population thirsty, hungry and diseased and nobody cares about them. This creates a head in the freezer feet in the furnace situation. Throw in the mix the troubled state of the environment and economies of the world, pandemics and worst of all, human nature and the situation becomes very unstable. Now I do not think anything can fix this. In my perception the die is cast. Now this is only a bad outcome if one has a preconceived notion of what a correct outcome is. In the Warriors Path one only, only, only learns from hardship. So in one way one can say when the caca hits the fan school will be open with a vengeance. So my goal is to make sure all of my pencils are sharp, that I have plenty of paper in my bookbag and am ready as possible spiritually and physically when the doors of the school are thrown open.

I don't see anyone could possibly find metaphysics-spirituality valuable from that pessimistic perspective. To find such things valuable we presuppose the die has not been cast. So maybe that's what you are claiming - this forum and others like it are really a waste of time. Which is fine, everyone can have an opinion. But, from my perspective, the source of this nihilism which confronts us can only be metaphysical-spiritual. It presupposes the world as a static object of our knowledge rather than a forum of active participation in the unfolding of what happens. With the latter view, it is within every individual's power to influence the world for better. Some may call that "naïve" or "unrealistic", but those who do lack imagination. As Dana point outs, those are the same people who cannot imagine a world made of ideal relations.

[Ed Konderla]

When one argues a fantasy over reality it is sad. Idealism has absolutely nothing to do with ideals. There are several things going on here in my mind. As is often the case a group captures a concept and owns it. They get to use it any way that trips their trigger. I have a great imagination but have the ability to separate imagination from reality. Then there is another valuable concept I learned when you are surrounded by people that love technical jargon. Recognize they practice this very often in a discussion, "If you can't dazzle them with your brilliance baffle them with your b.s.". I feel like that is being practiced to the level of an art sometimes here. Then there is the problem of fear. I sense fear and that fear driving denial to a pretty sad state. Basically it becomes a mental exercise of "I don't like the universe as it is so I'll just simply imagine it away". As to the importance of this blog I don't know. I find it interesting on several levels. It has the feel of being in a church where BK is the messiah. If one questions either BK's assumptions or the assumptions of one of his disciples it's like passing gas in church and then shouting out loud, "Wrap your nostrils around that one God".

[AshvinP]

When one argues a fantasy over reality it is sad. Idealism has absolutely nothing to do with ideals. There are several things going on here in my mind. As is often the case a group captures a concept and owns it. They get to use it any way that trips their trigger. I have a great imagination but have the ability to separate imagination from reality. Then there is another valuable concept I learned when you are surrounded by people that love technical jargon. Recognize they practice this very often in a discussion, "If you can't dazzle them with your brilliance baffle them with your b.s.". I feel like that is being practiced to the level of an art sometimes here. Then there is the problem of fear. I sense fear and that fear driving denial to a pretty sad state. Basically it becomes a mental exercise of "I don't like the universe as it is so I'll just simply imagine it away". As to the importance of this blog I don't know. I find it interesting on several levels. It has the feel of being in a church where BK is the messiah. If one questions either BK's assumptions or the assumptions of one of his disciples it's like passing gas in church and then shouting out loud, "Wrap your nostrils around that one God".

Or... you are simply being prejudiced (as in pre-judgmental). You say people do not question BK here, which means you failed to notice Cleric's essay on going "Beyond Flat M@L". Not that BK is necessarily advocating flat M@L, but he doesn't do much to clarify the distinction for his audience. Anyway, the focus of my post on nihilism is precisely your attitude - "these machinations of modern culture are justified to us on the grounds that they are 'realistic'". You think because we write about metaphysics it means we are detached from the "real world". Yet you are the one actually suggesting some kind of major wipeout of humanity is desirable or at least not to be questioned as inevitable. Nothing could be more detached from human Reality than such a sentiment. Nothing could trivialize the suffering of humans more.

[Ed Konderla]

I think what many point to as "human suffering" is caused by their own self indulgence and desired self importance. I doubt many here worry about where their food comes from, their electricity, who deals with their waste, who pays for their medical bills, who serves and protects them from the criminal eliminate and yet they hold their suffering up as paramount. Not impressed, not even a little. So I'll gracefully bow out so you can go back to contemplating your belly buttons and convincing yourself that mind at large and the physical universe is sitting on the edge of it's seat waiting for the next grand pronouncement of what it should be doing.

[Soul_of_Shu]

When one argues a fantasy over reality it is sad. Idealism has absolutely nothing to do with ideals. There are several things going on here in my mind. As is often the case a group captures a concept and owns it. They get to use it any way that trips their trigger. I have a great imagination but have the ability to separate imagination from reality. Then there is another valuable concept I learned when you are surrounded by people that love technical jargon. Recognize they practice this very often in a discussion, "If you can't dazzle them with your brilliance baffle them with your b.s.". I feel like that is being practiced to the level of an art sometimes here. Then there is the problem of fear. I sense fear and that fear driving denial to a pretty sad state. Basically it becomes a mental exercise of "I don't like the universe as it is so I'll just simply imagine it away". As to the importance of this blog I don't know. I find it interesting on several levels. It has the feel of being in a church where BK is the messiah. If one questions either BK's assumptions or the assumptions of one of his disciples it's like passing gas in church and then shouting out loud, "Wrap your nostrils around that one God".

Sigh ... Just when I felt that there may be some avenue to common ground between us, the above cynical comments seem to just reinforce that our respective understandings of what BK and others in this forum endeavour to point towards are pretty much diametrically opposed ~ so much so that I don't know how to begin to reconcile the situation. So be it, as I'm inclined to leave it at that, since one trusts that your path is precisely where you must be, as is mine, and who knows, perhaps to converge somewhere down the line.