Consciousness is all there is

Any topics primarily focused on metaphysics can be discussed here, in a generally casual way, where conversations may take unexpected turns.
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Shaibei
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Re: Consciousness is all there is

Post by Shaibei »

Cleric K wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:46 pm
Western esoterism steps on the foundations of the East and the Middle-East.
It seems, as Schopenhauer has already pointed out, that German idealism is imbued with Spinoza. So at least philosophically, one can find a connecting line that goes from Spinoza to Hegel, and from there to Steiner. In the middle should also be mentioned Shlomo Maimon, whom history has forgotten and towards whom Hegel was ungrateful, as a number of German scholars have pointed out.
You see in Steiner's esoteric theories the peak of spiritual development. I do not argue with beliefs. To me Steiner wasn't a seer. But at least as for what goes on in the Middle East, it does not seem to me that you are deeply familiar with Kabbalah for example. You may have a vague idea of ​​what Kabbalah means, but you will agree with me that vague concepts do not build theories.
"And a mute thought sails,
like a swift cloud on high.
Were I to ask, here below,
Amongst the gates of desolation:
Where goes
this captive of the heavens?
There is no one who can reveal to me the book,
or explain to me the chapters."
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Cleric K
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Re: Consciousness is all there is

Post by Cleric K »

Shaibei wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:16 pm It seems, as Schopenhauer has already pointed out, that German idealism is imbued with Spinoza. So at least philosophically, one can find a connecting line that goes from Spinoza to Hegel, and from there to Steiner.
This is generally the case. With Hegel philosophy reaches its final frontier - thinking reaches its own foundations. Further than this, intellectual thinking can't penetrate. Beyond the intellect we already need a higher form of cognition, the first of which is Imaginative or picture consciousness. This has been known in the esoteric streams. As far as the philosophical disciplines, Goethe instinctively explored the Imaginative cognition but could not yet encompass it in full clarity. This was the task of Steiner. On one hand he had to continue beyond the threshold that Hegel reached. On the other he integrated the genius of Goethe, now in a lucid way. But Steiner integrated a third stream. He was initiated in the Rosicrucian stream. Little is known about this because he didn't speak much of it. He only referred to 'The Master' without any details. In certain sense it was Steiner's mission to unite the secret esoteric stream with the stream of the more exoterically developing science and purely intellectual philosophy.

Rosicrucianism itself is the stream of esoteric Christianity where much of the developments of what is known today as the contents of spiritual science, took place. The stages of higher cognition have been already well known to them. What was the true merit of Steiner was the actual bridge the he built between philosophical and the esoteric cognition. The Philosophy of Freedom (PoF) embodies this bridge. This was Steiner's most important contribution to evolving humanity. In previous times, in order for one to become an esoteric student, quite specific soul qualities were needed, which only those karmically prepared had. Through PoF there's a path that requires nothing but unprejudiced and sound thinking. Whoever has penetrated into the depth of PoF can find the transition to the higher forms of conscious in a completely natural way, as a lawful evolution of thinking. Of course this doesn't mean that we become some completely 'mental' types through this. No, by saying that it's a thinking path it's meant that we can develop gradually through the metamorphosis of thinking cognition without the need for blind belief. Otherwise, the very essence of any genuine spiritual path is the harmonization and development of thinking, feeling and will. Unless the 'three horses' are tamed, it's impossible to have clear experience of the higher realms.

There's another important stream of Esoteric Christianity that runs parallel to Anthroposophy. It is more oriented towards the practical application of the higher knowledge and is related with the future mission of the Slavonic people. It's more appropriate for those souls who are already instinctively united with the impulse of Love but need the practical aspects. Spiritual science is approachable by the Western mind, which first need to understand and only then to apply in practice. In any case, both streams will unite and complement each other in the not too distant future.
Shaibei wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:16 pm You see in Steiner's esoteric theories the peak of spiritual development.
The peak is always relative. As I said above, spiritual development proceeds in quite complicated ways. There are different streams that develop different aspects and are united at certain points. To souls with different constitution I would speak quite differently than here. But in a forum like this, where thinking souls are gathered, the path that goes through development of the spiritual activity concealed in thinking is the most appropriate. As it is seen, this is not easy. The habits of the intellectual age are that thinking is used only for the contents of thinking. In order for thinking to become a spiritual path a shift of focus is needed. Thinking becomes an organ of perception for spiritual reality. As long as the focus is on the contents of thinking itself, we live in the phantom world of abstract thoughts which Kant recognized. When thinking is experienced as actual spiritual activity within the One world, it is no longer a 'copy' of some supposed world outside our personal bubble but a lawful reality that touches and feels its way through the One spiritual world.
Anyway. About the peaks - it's all about what each individual soul needs regarding its stage of development. What we need to learn today is different from what will be needed few centuries from now. In Steiner's words:
Rudolf Steiner wrote:It would be well, if especially from our Anthroposophical standpoint, as I have often told you, if it were recognised consciously and thoroughly, that even what is said now, even what we acquire as ever such advanced knowledge about Spiritual things, that must not be grasped as a sum of absolute dogmas. We must be quite clear that those who come after us, in future times, will see greater than we ourselves can. On this rests the true Spiritual evolution of mankind, and everything of a hindering nature in the Spiritual progress of mankind rests finally on the fact that human beings will not admit this. They like to have truths presented to them, not as the truths for one definite epoch of time, but as absolute timeless dogmas.
Shaibei wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:16 pm But at least as for what goes on in the Middle East, it does not seem to me that you are deeply familiar with Kabbalah for example. You may have a vague idea of ​​what Kabbalah means, but you will agree with me that vague concepts do not build theories.
You are correct. I have very general idea of Kabbalah. I can say that I've learned enough to see how in its depths it is in complete harmony with what we can experience today through the higher stages of consciousness. I emphasize on the depths because unfortunately the Kabbalah is very misused today. Just as Astrology, in the wider circles, it is largely reduced to purely intellectual framework for divination. One can read whole books on Kabbalah today that speak in purely psychological manner without a single word of the fact the Sephiroth are actual domains of the Spiritual World.

For me it is enough to feel the deep reverence for this ancient knowledge of the Hebrew sages and see how they developed it as prophetic science of what today can be experienced in full consciousness. My diagrams in the Deep M@L post practically contain hidden in themselves the Tree of Life. It's the same Depth structure.

Image

The four eons correspond to the four Worlds, which are connected with 9 hierarchies (man being the tenth) of spiritual beings.
Yesod is related to the Astral world, the world of Imaginative consciousness, the Moon sphere (mentioned here). Tiphereth is the Sun sphere, the Spiritual World, Devachan - world of Inspirative consciousness. Kether encompasses the outer spheres, world of Intuitive consciousness.

I've absorbed from the Kabbalah just enough for myself. As said, especially the modern treatments easily become lost in intellectual abstractions. It's very difficult to make transition to higher consciousness in meditation while holding these dead structures. It's still possible to meditate deeply on the Sephiroth because they point at spiritual realities. But the truth is that most of what we see in our age as Kabbalah is the product of entirely intellectual fabrications.
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Lou Gold
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Re: Consciousness is all there is

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Hitchhiking here not as a philosopher but as a visual storyteller this image is how I see the Buddhist view represented by Henry Moore who was arguably the West's greatest sculptor of the 20th Century. For me, this illustrates well that "form is emptiness and emptiness is not other than form."

Image

One notable Henry Moore achievement in the context of the discussion here is that he took the 'monumental' off the pedestal on-high and gave it a reclining status more humbly close to the ground, which the previously dominant 'ascent bias' in art was missing.

Image

For more about how I see the significance of this shift from "an upward toward a downward view" here is my blog post "Henry Moore: Re-visionary Artist", which perhaps offers a bit more about why I lean against a strong ascent bias.
Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love
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Eugene I
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Re: Consciousness is all there is

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Cleric, I'm reading your posts with much interest. We spend much time discussing all those questions about formless and form-aspects and can put it to rest I think. I agree with you on the value of cognition and its hierarchical structures and I think it's worth exploring the dimensions of cognition and what we can further learn from them. Definitely cognition and its ability to create, cognate and manipulate meanings and ideas is the most amazing faculty of Consciousness. Where we believe that the universe was manifested by a single MAL creator-divinity, or multiple universes were created by multiple divinities, there is little doubt that the creator(s) are the beings of high level of cognition and intelligence, and here I disagree with BK and on the same page with you guys, and it is also confirmed with a vast amount of NDE accounts of communication with the Divine. So, both the structures of the apparent material universe, and the structures of the astral and higher-dimensional realms were also created by the intelligence of the creators(s) through manifesting their creative ideas. Since all these structures are manifestations of ideas, they can be also comprehended not only through sense perceptions, but through cognition that can comprehend the creative ideas behind the created structures.

The famous physicists Eugene Wigner wrote a paper THE UNREASONABLE EFFECTIVENSS OF MATHEMATICS IN THE NATURAL SCIENCES, and such "unreasonable" effectiveness of math remains an unsolvable mystery for materialists, however it makes perfect sense in the framework of idealism. The physical world was created by manifesting ideas, including the mathematical ones, so there is no surprise that we find mathematics so effective in describing the natural world.

Similarly, we can apply cognition to understand the structures on the astral and other planes. Also, as many NDE accounts suggest, we all, being alters of the same Consciousness, possess an innate ability to create and manifest realities of forms and their structures by using our power of manifestation. This is what we even do in the material plane: all our technology, culture and art, and civilization overall is the result of manifesting our ideas. As an engineer, I invent and envision engineering structures using my high intuition and cognition, and then I create material technological structures based on these ideas. Similarly, we can do it in astral and other planes. It is a skill and art that we can explore, learn and master, whether in human form, or in discarnate one. And part of this mastering is investigating and learning from the ideas and structures that have been already created by the masters, be it the divine-creator masters, or the human masters of arts, science and technology. I believe that Love and Cognitive Creativity are the highest abilities and gifts of Consciousness, and there is no end in practicing, learning and mastering them.
"Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kanzas anymore" Dorothy
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Cleric K
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Re: Consciousness is all there is

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Thank you, Eugene! Very inspiring!
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Eugene I
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Re: Consciousness is all there is

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One more comment on the practical side of things. In most spiritual traditions the cognitive side, even though very important, has always been only one component of the path. For example, In the Buddhist eightfold path the right view is only one component, and the rest 7 components are all practical: mindfulness, concentration, effort, livelihood, action, speech, intention. Likewise, in the traditional Christianity most emphasis was on the practical side: prayer, love, charity, communion etc. Essentially, spiritual path is not about only developing higher cognition (even though it is very essential part), but about rebuilding and transforming the whole structure of the psyche on all levels and organs with all its cognitive and behavioral patterns and interconnections.
"Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kanzas anymore" Dorothy
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AshvinP
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Re: Consciousness is all there is

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Eugene I wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:33 pm One more comment on the practical side of things. In most spiritual traditions the cognitive side, even though very important, has always been only one component of the path. For example, In the Buddhist eightfold path the right view is only one component, and the rest 7 components are all practical: mindfulness, concentration, effort, livelihood, action, speech, intention. Likewise, in the traditional Christianity most emphasis was on the practical side: prayer, love, charity, communion etc. Essentially, spiritual path is not about only developing higher cognition (even though it is very essential part), but about rebuilding and transforming the whole structure of the psyche on all levels and organs with all its cognitive and behavioral patterns and interconnections.
This is likely where the reality of spiritual evolution needs to be contended with. What was traditionally emphasized were not ends-in-themselves but rather tools to be used in furthering our spiritual evolution, which will continue for quite some time. We seek to expand on what could be known in the past, just as centuries from now people will seek to expand on what we can know now. We should never think we are reaching absolute truths in the present. And what is practical and what is "cognitive" should not be divided - for the spiritual adult, striving for higher cognition is the most practical way forward.

(of course in the highest possible sense, Love and Communion with the Divine are fundamental goals)
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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Cleric K
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Re: Consciousness is all there is

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Probably it can be useful if we make the distinction that it's not necessary that everyone should become a spiritual scientist. This would be very ineffective. The thing is that once certain spiritual facts have been discovered through higher cognition they can be communicated and comprehended by everyone. A common misconception must be rectified here. It's widely assumed that in order to verify the facts of the higher worlds one has to become seer himself, otherwise they will dangle on blind faith. Such view results from misunderstanding of what seeing actually means.

A seer is someone who has the karmic predispositions to investigate and discover new relations within the world of living ideas. Yet after these relations are discovered they can be comprehended and evaluated even by those who don't have a talent for novel discoveries. We can use mathematics as analogy. It depends on many factors if someone will be able to discover some new theorem. This is not something that the mathematician is 'in control of'. If it was entirely in his control he would be able to exercise this control and discover new theorems at a whim. Never in history has this been the case. There's always a struggle, a groping towards a goal. It's only because of the pathological spiritual life of the cold intellect, that a mathematician can feel pride after the discovery of a theorem and say "I found it." He easily forgets that if the novel idea didn't enter his consciousness from beyond, he would be absolutely powerless to bring it in some forceful way. This attitude is corrected in spiritual investigation. The spiritual investigator is in full awareness that he doesn't possess the idea that he's looking for, nor he has the means to forcefully draw it to himself. This leads to the healthy mood of prayer-like openness to the Cosmic Intelligence - it is not that we can take the idea and make it our possession - it's the opposite - we must offer ourselves as an altar in which the idea can manifest, in complete humility. When the idea is received we feel nothing but gratitude and joy. The only thing that is in our control is to prepare the altar - that is, to develop our spiritual life, our prior concepts and so on. Einstein could have never discovered the field equations if he didn't absorb everything that was already known through the work of others. It's the same in spiritual science. We must prepare the materials of the altar that we are, so that the idea can enter our consciousness by grace and elucidate the correct relations of concepts and perceptions.

Once the ideas are received they must be tested by interrelating them with everything that we already know. This can be done even if we are not in position to make novel discoveries. This is what shows whether the idea is truthful or not. In the end run everything receives its worth by its practical value.

And after this prelude, we reach the topic. Everything that we know as spiritual practices, even though they may not be in themselves cognitive practices, is first discovered in the Spirit. This holds true for any religion and spiritual stream. What is characteristic for our times is that men can now not only accept the revealed religious practices but can and should understand how they are discovered at least in general sense. Only in this way can the Earthly and the Celestial life be gradually united.

So as we all agree - the work on the transformative development is primary. Yet part of this development is to also understand the sources of the spiritual methods. For example, the commandment 'Love your neighbor as yourself' sounds quite arbitrary to someone with materialistic conceptions. But if we have penetrated into the experience of Deep M@L, such a practical rule is seen as a direct consequence of more fundamental experiential principles.
It is in this sense that modern man should be more and more mindful of the spiritual guidelines. It is a great treasure that the titanic individuals who are at the forefront of evolution (the Bodhisattvas) bestow freely these lofty discoveries to us. But in our age it's not only a matter of applying the guidelines but also understanding them. We should strive for the perspectives from which these guidelines look like obvious facts and make these guidelines our own, in a way similar to how a theorem becomes our own only if we are able to experience its mathematical proof. It's completely irrelevant who was the first to discover these ideas in the historical context. The fact that Pythagoras theorem carries his name doesn't at all color its ideal contents in any way. It's the same with higher facts. They only receive their worth if we can integrate them understandingly in our perspective and, of course, then apply them in practice.
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Eugene I
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Re: Consciousness is all there is

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Cleric K wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:19 pm Probably it can be useful if we make the distinction that it's not necessary that everyone should become a spiritual scientist. This would be very ineffective. The thing is that once certain spiritual facts have been discovered through higher cognition they can be communicated and comprehended by everyone. A common misconception must be rectified here. It's widely assumed that in order to verify the facts of the higher worlds one has to become seer himself, otherwise they will dangle on blind faith. Such view results from misunderstanding of what seeing actually means.
Good points, Cleric, but I'm not sure I would agree that "once certain spiritual facts have been discovered through higher cognition they can be communicated and comprehended by everyone". I would say: yes, by everyone in principle, providing that their cognition is developed enough to comprehend such facts. Using math analogy, once Perelman proved the Poincare conjecture, it took many years for the leading mathematicians to understand and comprehend the whole proof, and even now, after 15 years of the publication of the proof, only a handful of the most advanced mathematicians fully understand it. So, by far not everyone even among professional mathematicians can understand the already revealed Perelman's proof.
"Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kanzas anymore" Dorothy
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Cleric K
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Re: Consciousness is all there is

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Eugene I wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:26 pm Good points, Cleric, but I'm not sure I would agree that "once certain spiritual facts have been discovered through higher cognition they can be communicated and comprehended by everyone". I would say: yes, by everyone in principle, providing that their cognition is developed enough to comprehend such facts. Using math analogy, once Perelman proved the Poincare conjecture, it took many years for the leading mathematicians to understand and comprehend the whole proof, and even now, after 15 years of the publication of the proof, only a handful of the most advanced mathematicians fully understand it. So, by far not everyone even among professional mathematicians can understand the already revealed Perelman's proof.
Of course, Eugene, absolutely! Honest and determined work is necessary in all cases. It is certainly easier when we have the direction and the most characteristic landmarks of the invisible landscape but no one else can exert the effort to walk the path instead of us.
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