Falsification of Scientific Theories of Consciousness

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Simon Adams
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Falsification of Scientific Theories of Consciousness

Post by Simon Adams »

There is of course debate about how important falsification is for a scientific theory (a potentially falsifiable theory can still be complete nonsense), but I suspect this question will divert attention further from some of the real questions.

https://academic.oup.com/nc/article/202 ... 01/6232324

There are also some interesting statements, including;
In the search for a scientific theory of consciousness, falsifiability must be considered explicitly as it is commonly assumed that consciousness itself cannot be directly observed, instead it can only be inferred based off of report or behavior.
Which is of course the old problem of trying to get a reliable third party account of anything, from celebrity gossip to quantum physics.
Ideas are certain original forms of things, their archetypes, permanent and incommunicable, which are contained in the Divine intelligence. And though they neither begin to be nor cease, yet upon them are patterned the manifold things of the world that come into being and pass away.
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Jim Cross
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Re: Falsification of Scientific Theories of Consciousness

Post by Jim Cross »

There is a number of theories that are very difficult to prove or falsify. The usual standard is that the theory meshes with the evidence better than other theories usually with a preference for simpler theories over more convoluted ones. Theories of this sort are always somewhat tentative. A better or simpler theory might come along or new evidence may call the theory into doubt.

For me, any consciousness theory that indicates that a non-living device or mechanism can be conscious should have the burden of making a device based on the theory's principles and demonstrating that it can produce some novel behaviors.
Simon Adams
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Re: Falsification of Scientific Theories of Consciousness

Post by Simon Adams »

Yes, being able to ‘demonstrate’ the theory in some unambiguous way is maybe better than just looking for falsification.

I would add that it should add an explanatory dimension. There should be something it explains better than other theories to make it a good scientific theory.

All that said, it does seem like consciousness is almost by definition beyond the scientific process. It’s always going to be a ‘black box’ in terms of scientific methods of investigation...
Ideas are certain original forms of things, their archetypes, permanent and incommunicable, which are contained in the Divine intelligence. And though they neither begin to be nor cease, yet upon them are patterned the manifold things of the world that come into being and pass away.
St Augustine
Jim Cross
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Re: Falsification of Scientific Theories of Consciousness

Post by Jim Cross »

Simon Adams wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:39 pm Yes, being able to ‘demonstrated’ the theory in some unambiguous way is maybe better than just looking for falsification.

I would add that it should add an explanatory dimension. There should be something it explains better than other theories to make it a good scientific theory.

All that said, it does seem like consciousness is almost by definition beyond the scientific process. It’s always going to be a ‘black box’ in terms of scientific methods of investigation...
I don't think it makes it beyond the scientific process at all. We have self reports and measurable behaviors that can be matched with brain activity. Also, some interesting experiments can be done that only require observable behavior.

Here is an article about an experiment showing monkeys have meta-cognition.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... nking-too/

Here's another similar one with rhesus monkeys:

https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2021/04/ ... s-monkeys/

All of this is easily observed behavior.

Of course, science can't get inside the head of the monkey and see what the monkey is seeing like they could in Brainstorm. Yet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainstorm_(1983_film)
lorenzop
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Re: Falsification of Scientific Theories of Consciousness

Post by lorenzop »

At the moment there are no scientific theories of consciousness, how matter becomes conscious; not any half-assed hunches or wild untested crazy ideas . . . so considering whether falsification of any theories is a bit premature.
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AshvinP
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Re: Falsification of Scientific Theories of Consciousness

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Simon Adams wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:39 pm Yes, being able to ‘demonstrated’ the theory in some unambiguous way is maybe better than just looking for falsification.

I would add that it should add an explanatory dimension. There should be something it explains better than other theories to make it a good scientific theory.

All that said, it does seem like consciousness is almost by definition beyond the scientific process. It’s always going to be a ‘black box’ in terms of scientific methods of investigation...
There is no reason to assume that. It is only when we self-impose a materialist or dualist framework does there arise some fundamental limit to what can be empirically and rigorously studied. Goethe was a great example of someone who began to investigate the dynamics of consciousness in relation to the phenomenal world and that was centuries ago. Just think where we would be if his method of scientific investigation had become the gold standard over that of Newton, Descartes, etc. and Kant. Steiner presents elaborations in his book on Goethean Science. Here is an excerpt which draws conclusions and relates them to Goethe's color theory, but it is best to visit the link and read through that entire chapter at least:
Steiner wrote:That is the important point. When we confront a phenomenon, we see it determined by many factors. We must seek out all the interrelationships if we are to understand the phenomenon. But these relationships differ from each other; some are more intimate, some more distant. The fact that a phenomenon E confronts me is due to other phenomena that are more intimately or more distantly related. Some are absolutely necessary if such a phenomenon is to arise at all; other phenomena, by their absence, would not at all keep such a phenomenon from arising, but do cause it to arise in precisely this or that way. We see from this that we must differentiate between necessary and coincidental determining factors of a phenomenon. Phenomena that arise in such a way that only the necessary determining factors bring them about can be called primary, and the others derivative. When, from their determining factors, we understand the primary phenomena, we can then also understand the derivative ones by adding new determining factors.

Here the task of science becomes clear to us. It has to penetrate far enough through the phenomenal world to seek out the phenomena that are dependent only upon necessary determining factors. And the verbal-conceptual expression for such necessary relationships is laws of nature.

When a person is confronting a sphere of phenomena, then, as soon as he has gone beyond mere description and registering of these, he must therefore first of all ascertain those elements which determine each other necessarily, and present them as archetypal phenomena. One must then add those determining factors which stand in a more distant relationship to those elements, in order to see how they modify those primary phenomena.

This is the relationship of science to the phenomenal world: within the latter, the phenomena absolutely do arise as derivative ones and are therefore incomprehensible from the very beginning; in science, the archetypal phenomena arise in the forefront with the derivative ones following, whereby the whole connection becomes comprehensible. The system of science differentiates itself from the system of nature through the fact that in the system of science the interrelationships of the phenomena are ascertained by the intellect and are rendered comprehensible thereby. Science never has to bring something in addition to the phenomenal world, but rather has only to disclose the hidden interrelationships of this world. All use of the intellect must be limited only to this latter work. By taking recourse to something that does not manifest in order to explain the phenomena, the intellect and any scientific activity are exceeding their powers.

Only someone who sees the absolute correctness of our findings can understand Goethe's colour theory. Any reflection about what a perception like light or colour might be in addition to the entity as which it manifests was completely foreign to Goethe's nature. For he knew what the powers of intellectual thinking were. Light was given to him as sensation. When he then wanted to explain the connection between light and colour, that could not occur through speculation, but only through an archetypal phenomenon, by his seeking out the necessary determining factor that must join light in order for colour to arise. Newton also saw colour arise in connection with light, but he then only thought speculatively about how colour arises out of light. It lay in his speculative way of thinking to do so; but not in Goethe's way of thinking, which was objective and rightly understood itself. Therefore, Newton's assumption that “light is composed of colored lights” had to appear to Goethe as the result of unrightful speculation. He considered himself justified only in expressing something about the connection between light and colour when some determining factor joins in, and not in expressing something about the light itself by bringing in a speculative concept. Therefore his statement: “Light is the simplest, most undivided, most homogeneous being that we know. It is not a composite.” Any statements about the composition of light are, indeed, only statements of the intellect about one phenomenon. The powers of the intellect, however, extend only to statements about the connection of phenomena.

This reveals the deeper reason why Goethe, as he looked through the prism, could not accept Newton's theory. The prism would have had to be the first determining factor for the coming about of colour. But another determining factor, the presence of something dark, proved to be more primary to its coming about; the prism proved to be only the second determining factor.
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Jim Cross
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Re: Falsification of Scientific Theories of Consciousness

Post by Jim Cross »

lorenzop wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:37 am At the moment there are no scientific theories of consciousness, how matter becomes conscious; not any half-assed hunches or wild untested crazy ideas . . . so considering whether falsification of any theories is a bit premature.
You may think them inadequate but there are many theories of consciousness. A few.

1- Integrated Information theory
2- EM field theories
3- Varieties of global workspace
4-Orchestrated objective reduction (ORCH)

This book with Dean Radin writing the foreword has a chapter on twelve electromagnetic field theories alone.



It includes chapters on Sheldrake and Lazlo in addition to Pockett and McFadden, and others.
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AshvinP
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Re: Falsification of Scientific Theories of Consciousness

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Jim Cross wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:14 am
lorenzop wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:37 am At the moment there are no scientific theories of consciousness, how matter becomes conscious; not any half-assed hunches or wild untested crazy ideas . . . so considering whether falsification of any theories is a bit premature.
You may think them inadequate but there are many theories of consciousness. A few.

1- Integrated Information theory
2- EM field theories
3- Varieties of global workspace
4-Orchestrated objective reduction (ORCH)
I'm sure we have gone over this several times before, but it's worth repeating - the problem has little to do with how many theories are out there, but rather with what is being asked of the theories. They are being asked to take quantitative abstractions of conscious experiences and use those abstractions to explain that which they are abstracted from. It is really no different from a fundamentalist religious person attempting to explain all natural phenomenon with the entity "God". If we are not willing to grant the "God" theory scientific status, then the same should go for material theories of consciousness.
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Jim Cross
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Re: Falsification of Scientific Theories of Consciousness

Post by Jim Cross »

AshvinP wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:14 pm
Jim Cross wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:14 am
lorenzop wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:37 am At the moment there are no scientific theories of consciousness, how matter becomes conscious; not any half-assed hunches or wild untested crazy ideas . . . so considering whether falsification of any theories is a bit premature.
You may think them inadequate but there are many theories of consciousness. A few.

1- Integrated Information theory
2- EM field theories
3- Varieties of global workspace
4-Orchestrated objective reduction (ORCH)
I'm sure we have gone over this several times before, but it's worth repeating - the problem has little to do with how many theories are out there, but rather with what is being asked of the theories. They are being asked to take quantitative abstractions of conscious experiences and use those abstractions to explain that which they are abstracted from. It is really no different from a fundamentalist religious person attempting to explain all natural phenomenon with the entity "God". If we are not willing to grant the "God" theory scientific status, then the same should go for material theories of consciousness.
I was responding to the statement that there are no theories. So you agree there are theories.

However, equating scientific theories to fundamentalism seems rather bizarre, especially if the contrary argument is Mind at Large, which sure as heck seems a lot like God.
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AshvinP
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Re: Falsification of Scientific Theories of Consciousness

Post by AshvinP »

Jim Cross wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:21 pm
AshvinP wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:14 pm
Jim Cross wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:14 am

You may think them inadequate but there are many theories of consciousness. A few.

1- Integrated Information theory
2- EM field theories
3- Varieties of global workspace
4-Orchestrated objective reduction (ORCH)
I'm sure we have gone over this several times before, but it's worth repeating - the problem has little to do with how many theories are out there, but rather with what is being asked of the theories. They are being asked to take quantitative abstractions of conscious experiences and use those abstractions to explain that which they are abstracted from. It is really no different from a fundamentalist religious person attempting to explain all natural phenomenon with the entity "God". If we are not willing to grant the "God" theory scientific status, then the same should go for material theories of consciousness.
I was responding to the statement that there are no theories. So you agree there are theories.

However, equating scientific theories to fundamentalism seems rather bizarre, especially if the contrary argument is Mind at Large, which sure as heck seems a lot like God.
I was pointing out why they should not be considered scientific theories. I am not relating all scientific theories to fundamentalism, only those which purport to explain consciousness. BK's idealist MAL philosophy never pretends to be a scientific theory.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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