The Observing Universe: can idealism be proven experimentally?

[AshvinP]

Thank you, Ashvin!

Yes, I think what you are saying is fairly accurate

I feel that Bernardo's thinking still has some unacknowledged "materialistic residue". More accurately, he is still influenced by the defining characteristic of Western thought (according to A. H. Almaas): the mistaken belief in a fundamental separation between self (or soul), world (or cosmos) and Being (or God).

The experiment I'm proposing, if it confirmed my predictions, would effectively prove the existence of God. And it would show that there is no real separation between our individual consciousness (or soul), the world we experience, and the ultimate true nature and source of it all, Being or God.

That said, I don't think it will be surprising for you to hear that I feel slightly trepidatious about the whole thing. Because if my theory is correct and the experiment got done and proved it, the implications would be far too overwhelming (for me personally, at least).

It would be much easier for me to stay within the familiar terrain of pure philosophical speculation, and forget all about the damn experiment. But ever since the idea occurred to me about a year and a half ago, I've felt compelled to put it out there. I have resisted it somewhat, telling myself it must be nonsense, but it just won't go away. So here it is.

And no, I haven't done anything to promote it, apart of posting it here. I've thought about talking to professional physicists (something quite difficult to do for a complete outsider like me), but I've come to the conclusion that it wouldn't be worth it. I think most physicists would be uncapable of taking my interpretation seriously. I thought about asking them exclusively about the feasibility of the experiment, but a little research on my part showed me that this apparently simple experiment in reality presents some probably unsurmountable technical difficulties. What a relief! Haha

So, even if the experiment made sense in principle (and I really think it does, if I'm honest), to try to actually perform it in practice would probably take a lot of work, maybe by a whole team of dedicated, talented scientists, toiling together for months or years to try to find a way of circumventing the technical problems (but like I said, it may well prove to be technically impossible). Maybe this will happen in the future, who knows? Maybe a new generation of idealist physicists will come to the fore... As for me, right now I feel by putting the idea out there I've already done enough.

Adur,

That's a very intriguing issue in and of itself (the technical difficulty or impossibility). I was thinking, if exoteric science were able to prove "God" in this manner, or at least the fundamental Unity of all-being in the world, that would sort of circumvent the need for each individual to discover this truth from within themselves, so as to make us truly free spirits capable of voluntary and eager sacrifice for the benefit of the Whole. Based on the metamorphic progression of all human culture over the epochs and ages, among other considerations, I am fairly convinced that must happen for each individual going forward. So the technical impossibility makes sense to me from a 'Karmic destiny' perspective. It makes more sense that these major scientific breakthroughs will occur in the broader culture once things get a lot more... let's say, 'challenging' from here.

"Materialistic residue" is a great way to put it! I am curious, did you see that phrase somewhere else or just intuit it? I am actually writing about this some in a new essay, but I will share some brief thoughts here. As most people know, Jung discussed the notion of the "Shadow" and the psychological operation of "compensation", when people 'make up' for unacknowledged deficiencies in their personality, relationships, careers, etc. by unconsciously moving in the opposite direction. So a person who is extremely introverted but not come to terms with it may become excessively annoying and boisterous in certain public outbursts, or vice versa. It seems we could apply this to worldviews as well. An idealist who is completely failing to account for spiritual reality, and/or keeping it as a vague abstract concept in the background of their philosophy, make actually lean more towards materialist understandings of the world to compensate.

A lot more could be said on this topic... but I think I will leave it there for now, as you get my point

[Adur Alkain]

Thank you, Ashvin!

Yes, I think what you are saying is fairly accurate

I feel that Bernardo's thinking still has some unacknowledged "materialistic residue". More accurately, he is still influenced by the defining characteristic of Western thought (according to A. H. Almaas): the mistaken belief in a fundamental separation between self (or soul), world (or cosmos) and Being (or God).

The experiment I'm proposing, if it confirmed my predictions, would effectively prove the existence of God. And it would show that there is no real separation between our individual consciousness (or soul), the world we experience, and the ultimate true nature and source of it all, Being or God.

That said, I don't think it will be surprising for you to hear that I feel slightly trepidatious about the whole thing. Because if my theory is correct and the experiment got done and proved it, the implications would be far too overwhelming (for me personally, at least).

It would be much easier for me to stay within the familiar terrain of pure philosophical speculation, and forget all about the damn experiment. But ever since the idea occurred to me about a year and a half ago, I've felt compelled to put it out there. I have resisted it somewhat, telling myself it must be nonsense, but it just won't go away. So here it is.

And no, I haven't done anything to promote it, apart of posting it here. I've thought about talking to professional physicists (something quite difficult to do for a complete outsider like me), but I've come to the conclusion that it wouldn't be worth it. I think most physicists would be uncapable of taking my interpretation seriously. I thought about asking them exclusively about the feasibility of the experiment, but a little research on my part showed me that this apparently simple experiment in reality presents some probably unsurmountable technical difficulties. What a relief! Haha

So, even if the experiment made sense in principle (and I really think it does, if I'm honest), to try to actually perform it in practice would probably take a lot of work, maybe by a whole team of dedicated, talented scientists, toiling together for months or years to try to find a way of circumventing the technical problems (but like I said, it may well prove to be technically impossible). Maybe this will happen in the future, who knows? Maybe a new generation of idealist physicists will come to the fore... As for me, right now I feel by putting the idea out there I've already done enough.

Adur,

That's a very intriguing issue in and of itself (the technical difficulty or impossibility). I was thinking, if exoteric science were able to prove "God" in this manner, or at least the fundamental Unity of all-being in the world, that would sort of circumvent the need for each individual to discover this truth from within themselves, so as to make us truly free spirits capable of voluntary and eager sacrifice for the benefit of the Whole. Based on the metamorphic progression of all human culture over the epochs and ages, among other considerations, I am fairly convinced that must happen for each individual going forward. So the technical impossibility makes sense to me from a 'Karmic destiny' perspective. It makes more sense that these major scientific breakthroughs will occur in the broader culture once things get a lot more... let's say, 'challenging' from here.

"Materialistic residue" is a great way to put it! I am curious, did you see that phrase somewhere else or just intuit it? I am actually writing about this some in a new essay, but I will share some brief thoughts here. As most people know, Jung discussed the notion of the "Shadow" and the psychological operation of "compensation", when people 'make up' for unacknowledged deficiencies in their personality, relationships, careers, etc. by unconsciously moving in the opposite direction. So a person who is extremely introverted but not come to terms with it may become excessively annoying and boisterous in certain public outbursts, or vice versa. It seems we could apply this to worldviews as well. An idealist who is completely failing to account for spiritual reality, and/or keeping it as a vague abstract concept in the background of their philosophy, make actually lean more towards materialist understandings of the world to compensate.

A lot more could be said on this topic... but I think I will leave it there for now, as you get my point

Ashvin,

There is a sort of telepathy going on here... Nothing surprising, since this is just universal consciousness here, having all these thoughts!

Yesterday I was thinking along those exact lines. I even wrote on my reply that if the whole of humanity would suddenly realize that we all are collectively creating the physical world, physical reality would somehow "break down", and this would defeat the purpose of the whole "project"... So that maybe "God" having other plans, would make it effectively impossible to prove this through replicable experiments. Or something like that. But then, after much back and forth in my mind, I deleted that part of my reply. I felt it was somehow wrong. (Second-guessing Nature's purposes and plans is always a rather nonsensical thing to do, anyway.)

The thing is, right after submitting my reply (it was late in the night, and I was feeling very tired... it often takes me hours to write one of these), I had another "flash of insight", and I realized that the "unsurmountable technical difficulties" I had in mind were not real. It was just a misconception on my part. Without going into much detail, I was under the impression that, since any actual experiment with entangled photons necesarily involves a "coincidence counter", this would make it impossible to have an "undetectable detector" (the coincidence counter is based on detecting the exact time at which each photon hits the detector; only with this information is it possible to identify the pairs of entangled photons that reach both detectors). But yesterday I suddenly realized that it would be perfectly possible to separate the coincidence counter from the actual "undetectable detector". In other words, it would be possible to obtain the coincidence information while still displaying the polarization information (what the undetectable detector actually measures) on an "invisible display" using ultraviolet light or whatever.

Anyway. Suddenly I don't see any reason why this couldn't be done. This kind of thing happens to me all the time...

I really get the feeling that these "flashes of insight" come from true intuition. Somehow they seem to come from the Source itself...

I may very well still be mistaken, of course. But I feel much more peaceful now. It's always like this for me: I feel restless until I find the "right answer".
As for what we were saying about humanity at large "not being ready" for this potentially world-changing revelation coming from science, I feel now that it isn't true. No scientific discovery will change the fact that each individual human has to discover this truth for themselves, as a personal lived experience. Actually, I believe most humans would think nothing of this discovery, if it happened. It would mean nothing to them. This hypothetical new science, an idealistic science, would probably find ways of improving the physical living conditions of most humans (I believe it could solve the issue of climate change, for example), but the spiritual need for personal awakening would still be there in every human individual.

I don't think I've read or heard "materialistic residue" anywhere else. It's not the first time I use it, I believe. But I don't see it as a problem. It's just natural that changing from life-long materialistic thinking into a completely different and novel idealistic thinking will take time. I sincerely hope that deep and open-minded thinkers like Bernardo will eventually realize that the idealistic worldview can be much more radical and liberating than they currently think. We are on the right path, I feel.

[AshvinP]

Thank you, Ashvin!

Yes, I think what you are saying is fairly accurate

I feel that Bernardo's thinking still has some unacknowledged "materialistic residue". More accurately, he is still influenced by the defining characteristic of Western thought (according to A. H. Almaas): the mistaken belief in a fundamental separation between self (or soul), world (or cosmos) and Being (or God).

The experiment I'm proposing, if it confirmed my predictions, would effectively prove the existence of God. And it would show that there is no real separation between our individual consciousness (or soul), the world we experience, and the ultimate true nature and source of it all, Being or God.

That said, I don't think it will be surprising for you to hear that I feel slightly trepidatious about the whole thing. Because if my theory is correct and the experiment got done and proved it, the implications would be far too overwhelming (for me personally, at least).

It would be much easier for me to stay within the familiar terrain of pure philosophical speculation, and forget all about the damn experiment. But ever since the idea occurred to me about a year and a half ago, I've felt compelled to put it out there. I have resisted it somewhat, telling myself it must be nonsense, but it just won't go away. So here it is.

And no, I haven't done anything to promote it, apart of posting it here. I've thought about talking to professional physicists (something quite difficult to do for a complete outsider like me), but I've come to the conclusion that it wouldn't be worth it. I think most physicists would be uncapable of taking my interpretation seriously. I thought about asking them exclusively about the feasibility of the experiment, but a little research on my part showed me that this apparently simple experiment in reality presents some probably unsurmountable technical difficulties. What a relief! Haha

So, even if the experiment made sense in principle (and I really think it does, if I'm honest), to try to actually perform it in practice would probably take a lot of work, maybe by a whole team of dedicated, talented scientists, toiling together for months or years to try to find a way of circumventing the technical problems (but like I said, it may well prove to be technically impossible). Maybe this will happen in the future, who knows? Maybe a new generation of idealist physicists will come to the fore... As for me, right now I feel by putting the idea out there I've already done enough.

Adur,

That's a very intriguing issue in and of itself (the technical difficulty or impossibility). I was thinking, if exoteric science were able to prove "God" in this manner, or at least the fundamental Unity of all-being in the world, that would sort of circumvent the need for each individual to discover this truth from within themselves, so as to make us truly free spirits capable of voluntary and eager sacrifice for the benefit of the Whole. Based on the metamorphic progression of all human culture over the epochs and ages, among other considerations, I am fairly convinced that must happen for each individual going forward. So the technical impossibility makes sense to me from a 'Karmic destiny' perspective. It makes more sense that these major scientific breakthroughs will occur in the broader culture once things get a lot more... let's say, 'challenging' from here.

"Materialistic residue" is a great way to put it! I am curious, did you see that phrase somewhere else or just intuit it? I am actually writing about this some in a new essay, but I will share some brief thoughts here. As most people know, Jung discussed the notion of the "Shadow" and the psychological operation of "compensation", when people 'make up' for unacknowledged deficiencies in their personality, relationships, careers, etc. by unconsciously moving in the opposite direction. So a person who is extremely introverted but not come to terms with it may become excessively annoying and boisterous in certain public outbursts, or vice versa. It seems we could apply this to worldviews as well. An idealist who is completely failing to account for spiritual reality, and/or keeping it as a vague abstract concept in the background of their philosophy, make actually lean more towards materialist understandings of the world to compensate.

A lot more could be said on this topic... but I think I will leave it there for now, as you get my point

Ashvin,

There is a sort of telepathy going on here... Nothing surprising, since this is just universal consciousness here, having all these thoughts!

Yesterday I was thinking along those exact lines. I even wrote on my reply that if the whole of humanity would suddenly realize that we all are collectively creating the physical world, physical reality would somehow "break down", and this would defeat the purpose of the whole "project"... So that maybe "God" having other plans, would make it effectively impossible to prove this through replicable experiments. Or something like that. But then, after much back and forth in my mind, I deleted that part of my reply. I felt it was somehow wrong. (Second-guessing Nature's purposes and plans is always a rather nonsensical thing to do, anyway.)

The thing is, right after submitting my reply (it was late in the night, and I was feeling very tired... it often takes me hours to write one of these), I had another "flash of insight", and I realized that the "unsurmountable technical difficulties" I had in mind were not real. It was just a misconception on my part. Without going into much detail, I was under the impression that, since any actual experiment with entangled photons necesarily involves a "coincidence counter", this would make it impossible to have an "undetectable detector" (the coincidence counter is based on detecting the exact time at which each photon hits the detector; only with this information is it possible to identify the pairs of entangled photons that reach both detectors). But yesterday I suddenly realized that it would be perfectly possible to separate the coincidence counter from the actual "undetectable detector". In other words, it would be possible to obtain the coincidence information while still displaying the polarization information (what the undetectable detector actually measures) on an "invisible display" using ultraviolet light or whatever.

Anyway. Suddenly I don't see any reason why this couldn't be done. This kind of thing happens to me all the time...

I really get the feeling that these "flashes of insight" come from true intuition. Somehow they seem to come from the Source itself...

I may very well still be mistaken, of course. But I feel much more peaceful now. It's always like this for me: I feel restless until I find the "right answer".
As for what we were saying about humanity at large "not being ready" for this potentially world-changing revelation coming from science, I feel now that it isn't true. No scientific discovery will change the fact that each individual human has to discover this truth for themselves, as a personal lived experience. Actually, I believe most humans would think nothing of this discovery, if it happened. It would mean nothing to them. This hypothetical new science, an idealistic science, would probably find ways of improving the physical living conditions of most humans (I believe it could solve the issue of climate change, for example), but the spiritual need for personal awakening would still be there in every human individual.

I don't think I've read or heard "materialistic residue" anywhere else. It's not the first time I use it, I believe. But I don't see it as a problem. It's just natural that changing from life-long materialistic thinking into a completely different and novel idealistic thinking will take time. I sincerely hope that deep and open-minded thinkers like Bernardo will eventually realize that the idealistic worldview can be much more radical and liberating than they currently think. We are on the right path, I feel.

You are right, we modern humans resist even the most simple things we can do to shift our perspectives, so I doubt experimental confirmation of your hypothesis would have much of an effect at first. We already have more than enough scientific results to dispel all of the isolated "alter" type understandings of the phenomenal world and living beings. Really, we cannot expect anything 'external' to have a big impact on society, only what we ourselves transform from within via Self-knowledge.

I have seen Steiner use this concept "residue" in various places, which is why I asked. It's a great image to employ. I agree it is natural, but I also see it as becoming a great problem if it continues much longer. It's not just the idealist who can become very materialist in their thinking without genuine connection to higher spiritual realms, but the materialist who can become over-spiritualized without such connection as well. Then we are left with two extremes with no bridge between them. These principles of the spirit-soul should really garner as much of our serious attention (and eventually more) as the so-called "laws" of the physical realm, which, if we ignore, could be fatal.