Help with fishing

[Soul_of_Shu]

Sure, but you certainly are not meta-conscious of the whispering or the curiosity (or the joy of anticipation for dinner tonight, or the nostalgia of the kid's voice, nor the blue light) when you are focused on typing the email.

I will make this point one last time ... What I'm doubting is the specific claim that the 'curiosity' aspect can be there, prior to one being metaconscious of the of whispering. Another example: while metacognitively focused on some conversation about vacations, the percept of a distant train whistle might be registered at some subliminal level, and the conversation could unwittingly switch to an anecdote about trains, without ever recognizing the subliminal influence. However, to state that some curiosity about the destination of the train is also subliminally registered, is an extrapolation which as far as I know BK has never specifically claimed or addressed, and so I'm not sure he would concur with such a claim, or how we can know that he definitely would concur without asking him. There is no other point I'm trying to contest.

[findingblanks]

With spunk, Soul emphatically stated:

"I will make this point one last time ... What I'm doubting is the specific claim that the 'curiosity' aspect can be there, prior to one being metaconscious of the of whispering."

I'll try to match your tone as that might speak your language:

I am only going to say this one more time, dear Soul, I never claimed in my original post that the curiosity formed subconsciously (although, we can easily think of examples in our won life when it could). I simple said that WHILE reading and thinking, the curiosity was impinging. I will not ask you again to notice that I never was making the claim you say you'll never bring up

I made a list of dissociated experience and asked you if they seemed like they could be dissociated experiences.

You objected to 'curiosity.'

And we have come to see that you actually agree that curiosity fits my examples of possible dissociated experiences, but you want to make it clear that you WOULD disagree if I was pushing the idea that we can form dissociated states of curiosity while focusing on something else.

"Another example: while metacognitively focused on some conversation about vacations, the percept of a distant train whistle might be registered at some subliminal level, and the conversation could unwittingly switch to an anecdote about trains, without ever recognizing the subliminal influence. However, to state that some curiosity about the destination of the train is also subliminally registered, is an extrapolation which as far as I know BK has never specifically claimed or addressed, and so I'm not sure he would concur with such a claim, or how we can know that he definitely would concur without asking him. There is no other point I'm trying to contest."

Great example. You and I are talking about vacations. I hear a train whistle which doesn't enter into my meta-consciousness. Because of my childhood visits to Watseka Illinois, I associate trains with a sad nostalgia for better days long past. As we talk, I find myself wondering if I should finally go to Germany (where my grandparents are from) and my mood has become less enthusiastic.

I understand that you are saying that in your opinion the sad longing could NOT start influencing my thinking about vacations without me switching over to it meta-cognitively and noticing, "I'm feeling nostalgic now,". I seriously disagree and think you run into a recursive problem if such states have to be meta-conscious before they can infringe. But, as I keep saying, nothing about my point was directed at that question.

Some people have certainly had the experience of reading a great patch of dialog in a book and realizing that it has caused them to be in a great state of curiosity for the last ten minutes. The idea that hearing a fascinating conversation in the background as you study couldn't elicit curiosity seems very strange to me. But I will say that if somebody strenuously objects to a background conversation making you feel irritated or curious or sad or delighted...my hypothesis is that this assumption is due to the the kind of unit-based thinking I'm talking about.

I don't expect you to carry this on, my dear Soul. You've made it absolutely clear that all you object to is the notion that unconsciously hearing a background conversation could cause a curiosity to impinge on meta-consciousness. Noted. I'm glad that doesn't relate directly to my point but I'm also glad it came up because it is a really cool point itself.

[Soul_of_Shu]

Well I understood that you were referring to subliminal influences impinging on metaconsciousness, so when you referred to 'curiosity' impinging on metaconsciousness, I assumed you're referring to that curiosity being subliminal. I confess I'm finding it difficult to follow your points. If you can find a way to bring them to BK's attention, hopefully he'll better comprehend and address them.

[SanteriSatama]

'Subliminal' sounds problematic word-concept to me as such. The standard definition given is 'below the treshold', with treshold meaning bivalent on-off 'trigger' and 'below' meaning "not enough to trigger".

On the other hand I associate 'liminal' with a duration or state in between some bivalent polarity, not instant trigger.

Smoking a cigarette in the doorway, my feet on the treshold, I'm in the liminal state between in and out of the house, and not in haste to resolve the bivalent question whether I'm in or out. Some curiosity might grab my attention, and draw me out, or vice versa.

In the latter meaning of 'liminal', what could 'sub' mean? If we take the trinity of 'in', 'out' and 'treshold' as primary ontology of codependent degrees, instead of bivalent-on-of triggers, how does that contextualize and qualify the original question?

[Soul_of_Shu]

'Subliminal' sounds problematic word-concept to me as such. The standard definition given is 'below the treshold', with treshold meaning bivalent on-off 'trigger' and 'below' meaning "not enough to trigger".

On the other hand I associate 'liminal' with a duration or state in between some bivalent polarity, not instant trigger.

Smoking a cigarette in the doorway, my feet on the treshold, I'm in the liminal state between in and out of the house, and not in haste to resolve the bivalent question whether I'm in or out. Some curiosity might grab my attention, and draw me out, or vice versa.

In the latter meaning of 'liminal', what could 'sub' mean? If we take the trinity of 'in', 'out' and 'treshold' as primary ontology of codependent degrees, instead of bivalent-on-of triggers, how does that contextualize and qualify the original question?

There are of course other terms that might be used and preferred here, but in this case 'subliminal' influence is referring to events that are obfuscated, or de-focused, or tuned out, relative to whatever events are occupying one's immediate metacognitive focus of attention, which are nonetheless still influencing/informing that metacognitive activity—the train whistle scenario being one such example. If 'subliminal' doesn't work for you, then substitute whatever term you prefer.

[SanteriSatama]

There are of course other terms that might be used and preferred here, but in this case 'subliminal' influence is referring to events that are obfuscated, or de-focused, or tuned out, relative to whatever events are occupying one's immediate metacognitive focus of attention, which are nonetheless still influencing/informing that metacognitive activity—the train whistle scenario being one such example. If 'subliminal' doesn't work for you, then substitute whatever term you prefer.

As a non-native speaker, I'm in the bad habit of retorting to both contemporary and etymological dictionary meanings when trying to decipher meaning of English text and it's expressions.

Perhaps the most interesting aspect is the temporal fluidity of when and how metacognitive layer becomes opened and triggered relative to the sentience durations and events what it is about.