Looking forward to this one!
BK and Barfield and Blake
-
Soul_of_Shu
- Posts: 2023
- Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:48 pm
- Contact:
Re: BK and Barfield and Blake
So by this I take it that MV has arranged such a meeting of minds? No mention of when?
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
Re: BK and Barfield and Blake
Says he will post it soon on his Youtube Channel.Soul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:50 pm So by this I take it that MV has arranged such a meeting of minds? No mention of when?
Re: BK and Barfield and Blake
It already happened? This would have been a great one to submit questions live if possible. Either way I am also eager to watch it! Hopefully Barfield is discussed at length and we get BK's thoughts on the spiritual metamorphic paradigm.Starbuck wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:42 pmSays he will post it soon on his Youtube Channel.Soul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:50 pm So by this I take it that MV has arranged such a meeting of minds? No mention of when?
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
Re: BK and Barfield and Blake
It's up!AshvinP wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:49 pmIt already happened? This would have been a great one to submit questions live if possible. Either way I am also eager to watch it! Hopefully Barfield is discussed at length and we get BK's thoughts on the spiritual metamorphic paradigm.Starbuck wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:42 pmSays he will post it soon on his Youtube Channel.Soul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:50 pm So by this I take it that MV has arranged such a meeting of minds? No mention of when?
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
-
SanteriSatama
- Posts: 1030
- Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:07 pm
Re: BK and Barfield and Blake
Ten minutes in, and manages to clarify some very intricate semantic confusion when we use the term "re-present-ation". Symbolic relation is in animistic-shamanic experience a part-whole and two-way relation, no fundamental separation implied. Thanks, back to watching.
-
SanteriSatama
- Posts: 1030
- Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:07 pm
Re: BK and Barfield and Blake
Some linguistic ruminations about "physical", where Bernardo and Rovelli have semantic disagreement. The Greek root of physis means 'growth'. The Latin root of "nature" means birth. The Finnish root of 'luonto' means creation.
In Finnish phenomenally Barfieldian etymology-experience, the word "luonto" refers to sentient whole-body feel of creative inspiration, feel of creative empowerment and urge. It's a specific taste of whole-body sentience, which in our linguistic traditions arises from the ground, from the deep crevisse, from beneath the surface. In that sense, not representative of something external, nor limited to subject-object dualism. On the other hand, very closely connected with the discussion of emergent universe-nature through participatory creation.
In the physicalist tradition of reductionism, the nature-object of the collective subject of scientific community has been thought as synonymous to "whole", and whole as sum of parts (which reductionism means). As quantum etc. developments are falsifying the reductionistic-mechanistic paradigm, it's understandable to maintain the meaning 'whole', and re-interprete physis/nature as holistic network, where thing-phenomena (formerly thought as constitutive atom-things of reductionism) now become nodes in holistic networks. Kastrup is basically criticizing Rovelli for reinterpreting the word-concept in a new-old paradigm, which is philosophically much more coherent than materialism and objectivism. And insisting that he could instead of keep on using the word as his materialistic-reductionistic object of pugilism.
In Finnish phenomenally Barfieldian etymology-experience, the word "luonto" refers to sentient whole-body feel of creative inspiration, feel of creative empowerment and urge. It's a specific taste of whole-body sentience, which in our linguistic traditions arises from the ground, from the deep crevisse, from beneath the surface. In that sense, not representative of something external, nor limited to subject-object dualism. On the other hand, very closely connected with the discussion of emergent universe-nature through participatory creation.
In the physicalist tradition of reductionism, the nature-object of the collective subject of scientific community has been thought as synonymous to "whole", and whole as sum of parts (which reductionism means). As quantum etc. developments are falsifying the reductionistic-mechanistic paradigm, it's understandable to maintain the meaning 'whole', and re-interprete physis/nature as holistic network, where thing-phenomena (formerly thought as constitutive atom-things of reductionism) now become nodes in holistic networks. Kastrup is basically criticizing Rovelli for reinterpreting the word-concept in a new-old paradigm, which is philosophically much more coherent than materialism and objectivism. And insisting that he could instead of keep on using the word as his materialistic-reductionistic object of pugilism.
-
SanteriSatama
- Posts: 1030
- Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:07 pm
Re: BK and Barfield and Blake
A note on Barfields approach to linguistics. It corresponds very well with 1) synchronic and diachronic variation 2) Sapir-Whorf hypothesis and 3) Natural languages of various species/populations as self-expressions of "ecosystems" or "perspectival multinatures" in language of contemporary animism.
-
Soul_of_Shu
- Posts: 2023
- Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:48 pm
- Contact:
Re: BK and Barfield and Blake
Quite brilliant ... And now we return to our regular paradigmatic programming, which in comparison can seem like something contrived by the writers of Plan 9 from Outer Space ... sigh.
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
Re: BK and Barfield and Blake
The last 30 min. or so was very interesting - BK refers to Jung's Answer to Job and the idea that God of the OT must be instinctive and lack self-awareness. MV responds by pointing out that Jung is speaking of how it appears from the human perspective, since the human consciousness underwent such a metamorphic progression from instinctively unified with Nature to self-aware and estranged from the Divine. And if that was not Jung's understanding, at least it should be our understanding. I am not sure if BK understood that distinction MV was trying to make, but it is a critical one for us to recognize so as to avoid many common traps in modern philosophy.
Perhaps the biggest stumbling block for all modern philosophy, apart from mind-matter dualism or materialism, is the 3rd-person spectator perspective. We may not even be trying to philosophize from such a perspective but we naturally slip right into it if we are not constantly vigilant. In this case, BK imagines standing apart from MAL and saying it was instinctive and not self-aware until human alters came on the scene. That is true from the perspective of humans undergoing the metamorphic progression. When we endeavor to say anything more about the "absolute" nature of MAL, we are attempting to leave that perspective for the 3rd-person perspective which does not exist.
It's easy for me to recognize this now because I operate with much of the same intellectual logical reasoning as BK. That is the place from which all analytic philosophy speaks. MV, on the other hand, speaks from the Platonic philosophical perspective and his training-experience as a psychotherapist. That perspective is much more comfortable in the relational, problematical, 'aperspectival' mode of reasoning. We see that in MV's response to BK when he discusses the Trinity and the quality of relations within the Trinity which are eternally valid. It seemed to me like BK was also pretty receptive to that, at least more than I would have expected him to be.
Perhaps the biggest stumbling block for all modern philosophy, apart from mind-matter dualism or materialism, is the 3rd-person spectator perspective. We may not even be trying to philosophize from such a perspective but we naturally slip right into it if we are not constantly vigilant. In this case, BK imagines standing apart from MAL and saying it was instinctive and not self-aware until human alters came on the scene. That is true from the perspective of humans undergoing the metamorphic progression. When we endeavor to say anything more about the "absolute" nature of MAL, we are attempting to leave that perspective for the 3rd-person perspective which does not exist.
It's easy for me to recognize this now because I operate with much of the same intellectual logical reasoning as BK. That is the place from which all analytic philosophy speaks. MV, on the other hand, speaks from the Platonic philosophical perspective and his training-experience as a psychotherapist. That perspective is much more comfortable in the relational, problematical, 'aperspectival' mode of reasoning. We see that in MV's response to BK when he discusses the Trinity and the quality of relations within the Trinity which are eternally valid. It seemed to me like BK was also pretty receptive to that, at least more than I would have expected him to be.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"