BK calling out Sam Harris on his "sophomoric ignorance"

Any topics primarily focused on metaphysics can be discussed here, in a generally casual way, where conversations may take unexpected turns.

Moderator: Soul_of_Shu

Ben Iscatus
Posts: 304
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:15 pm

Re: BK calling out Sam Harris on his "sophomoric ignorance"

Post by Ben Iscatus »

Yes, Santeri, true - political debates are often pointless due to confirmation bias, misrepresentation and selective fact-citing (not to mention blatant lying). I never bother with those. But debates about the nature of reality and the paradigmatic basis of our cultural thinking are on an altogether different plane.
User avatar
Soul_of_Shu
Posts: 1584
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:48 pm

Re: BK calling out Sam Harris on his "sophomoric ignorance"

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

Jim Cross wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:49 pmThe fact that you, BK, and most on this forum are framing this in terms of debate tells volumes.
As mentioned above, I for one have little interest in some kind of formal debate with SH, but much prefer the kind explorative/informative dialogue he has had with Vervaeke, or could have with Peterson. In the end, the supposed great debate between SH and JP eventually turned into more of a dialogue anyway, so why not just start with that, and skip all the posturing?
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
Ben Iscatus
Posts: 304
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:15 pm

Re: BK calling out Sam Harris on his "sophomoric ignorance"

Post by Ben Iscatus »

In the end, the supposed great debate between SH and JP eventually turned into more of a dialogue anyway, so why not just start with that, and skip all the posturing?
Posturing is not necessary, though. Debates attract more interest. Many like a bit of juicy antagonism. I confess I do.
User avatar
Soul_of_Shu
Posts: 1584
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:48 pm

Re: BK calling out Sam Harris on his "sophomoric ignorance"

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

Ben Iscatus wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:29 pmPosturing is not necessary, though. Debates attract more interest. Many like a bit of juicy antagonism. I confess I do.
True enough I suppose ... perhaps something about the anticipation of some excitement to relieve the ennui of 'que sera sera.' Still, I find it hard to get overly invested in it. My take is still that we will do whatever we feel impelled to do, regardless of what anyone else feels we should be doing instead, and so all this woulda/coulda/shoulda finger-wagging, head-slapping admonishing of others about them 'just not getting it' is largely an exercise in futility. One might as well be admonishing the caterpillar for voraciously devouring its host plant, while claiming that instead of being so destructive it should be going about the business of constructing a cocoon in which it can undergo the transfiguration into the imago stage. But it just doesn't work that way, since for every part of the process there is a season, and there is no bypassing the prerequisite seasons. But hey, why not a season for juicy antagonism too? ;)
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
Jim Cross
Posts: 513
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:36 pm

Re: BK calling out Sam Harris on his "sophomoric ignorance"

Post by Jim Cross »

Ben Iscatus wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:08 am Yes, Santeri, true - political debates are often pointless due to confirmation bias, misrepresentation and selective fact-citing (not to mention blatant lying). I never bother with those. But debates about the nature of reality and the paradigmatic basis of our cultural thinking are on an altogether different plane.
You're saying that debates about the nature of reality don't suffer from confirmation bias, misrepresentation and selective fact-citing? 'Reality", if the term actually means anything, is probably a huge Rorschach test where everyone sees what they want to see.
Mark Tetzner
Posts: 103
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:10 am

Re: BK calling out Sam Harris on his "sophomoric ignorance"

Post by Mark Tetzner »

So Dana, I thought I had responded the other day, just wanted to say thanks for helping out with the link.
I dont spend a lot of time here because the forum takes time getting used to, my comment not
showing at all just makes it even more obvious. I think I keep clicking the wrong button or something.
User avatar
Soul_of_Shu
Posts: 1584
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:48 pm

Re: BK calling out Sam Harris on his "sophomoric ignorance"

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

Mark Tetzner wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 4:58 pm So Dana, I thought I had responded the other day, just wanted to say thanks for helping out with the link.
I dont spend a lot of time here because the forum takes time getting used to, my comment not
showing at all just makes it even more obvious. I think I keep clicking the wrong button or something.
Mark ... so far I'm not aware of anyone else having issues with their comments not showing up, so I've no idea what the problem might be. If you click on the drop-down menu in the upper right corner, then click on 'profile', there is an option to search for any posts that you have previously made. If the post is not showing up there, then presumably it did not get submitted. I can only suggest that you experiment a bit more, by submitting a few more comments, and seeing if there are any that go missing. If so, get back to us in the 'technical questions' section, and hopefully Simon can look into what the issue might be.
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
Ben Iscatus
Posts: 304
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:15 pm

Re: BK calling out Sam Harris on his "sophomoric ignorance"

Post by Ben Iscatus »

You're saying that debates about the nature of reality don't suffer from confirmation bias, misrepresentation and selective fact-citing? 'Reality", if the term actually means anything, is probably a huge Rorschach test where everyone sees what they want to see.
I'm saying that debates attract more people than discussions and many people attracted to a debate on the nature of Reality will be so caught up in the existing paradigm that they won't realise they're enslaved to it. Being shown that they are enslaved may well encourage a change of heart and mind. I do seriously believe that there are ineluctable cultural trends (formed in the noosphere, or in the collective mind) and that these can be embodied by individuals (rather as Mandela embodied the anti-apartheid movement in South Africa or Gandhi embodied the anti-British resistance in India). I also believe that once a cultural trend is underway, that no amount of resistance, even by a huge majority of people, can stop it. It's a rollercoaster.
Mark Tetzner
Posts: 103
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:10 am

Re: BK calling out Sam Harris on his "sophomoric ignorance"

Post by Mark Tetzner »

Dana I think I kind of figured it out thanks again.
EricLinguist
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:48 am

Re: BK calling out Sam Harris on his "sophomoric ignorance"

Post by EricLinguist »

I came across Kastrup's ideas for the first time in his podcast conversation with Michael Shermer and was completely blown away. I immediately set out to explore those ideas in more detail and order some of his books, but then I read his twitter thread lambasting Sam Harris with ad hominem attacks a link to a shamelessly slanderous article (but not "endorsing" it?). Not that Harris is unassailable. He's not. A discussion/debate between BK and SH would probably be very enlightening, for listeners as well as the two of them But it's unlikely that Kastrup's combative and petulant online discourse is going to bring that about; in fact it implies a lack of interest in doing so. More importantly, it's not in any way conducive to philosophical inquiry and it also undermines Kastrup's credibility, at least for those of us who believe that there is no philosophy without civil conversation. Really, a public apology is the only way for BK to walk this back.
Post Reply