AshvinP wrote: ↑Sat Jul 17, 2021 4:02 amI think we do already know. The gnostic traditions survived in what we call "esoteric Christianity". That involves the Knights Templar, the Rosicrucians, Goethe, Steiner, and all sorts of fascinating and mysterious characters I know... these things sound beyond ridiculous to modern ears, but is it really so much more ridiculous than the assertion that we are all perspectives of one unified Mind? Or that everything we see around us in Nature is mental activity? Or that all past and future experiential states are essentially wrapped up within the ever-present now? I presume you accept all three of those assertions. That was my overall point - if we limit ourselves to exoteric physicalist history, which we really have no warrant to do as idealists, then what you say above is true - your speculation is as good as my speculation is as good as anyone else's about what happened 2000 years ago until modern day, because the framework a priori rules out supersensible and aperspectival (time-free) knowledge. We become complacent with the modern notion that we can never answer these questions with detail and confidence, so we stop asking these questions altogether. If we get beyond that to the esoteric mysteries and evolving Christian tradition, however, then no such limits exist and we can begin to consider that some of these people actually had higher resolution Wisdom on all of these matters, which is now out in the open for everyone to consider and explore for themselves.
All good points ... Truth be told, I was never a fan of the demiurge narrative, so I might have buried that one too if I had the chance It is valid if looking at it through the lens of the evolution of ideation, to understand that just like some species, some ideas don't make the cut. But instead of thinking of it as just survival of the fittest kind, it can also be seen as metamorphosis into the imago kind, except without some notion of finality.
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
Soul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Sat Jul 17, 2021 8:36 am
All good points ... Truth be told, I was never a fan of the demiurge narrative, so I might have buried that one too if I had the chance It is valid if looking at it through the lens of the evolution of ideation, to understand that just like some species, some ideas don't make the cut. But instead of thinking of it as just survival of the fittest kind, it can also be seen as metamorphosis into the imago kind, except without some notion of finality.
Demiurge both in it's positive and negative aspects can be comprehended as testing the internal tensions and loopholes of the Golden/Silver rule. Basic ontology of empathy and metabolism, and how thinking plays in that.
I'm not sure we can apply evolutionary theory to ideas, unless we remember that 99% of all species that ever existed are extinct, and that the leaders of the current paradigm are acting like blind alters with sacks over their heads in a coal cellar...
Ben Iscatus wrote: ↑Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:56 am
I'm not sure we can apply evolutionary theory to ideas, unless we remember that 99% of all species that ever existed are extinct, and that the leaders of the current paradigm are acting like blind alters with sacks over their heads in a coal cellar...
To be sure, within the shadowy confines of the crucible of the chrysalis, the M@Lformed currently seems malformed.
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
Ben Iscatus wrote: ↑Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:56 am
I'm not sure we can apply evolutionary theory to ideas, unless we remember that 99% of all species that ever existed are extinct, and that the leaders of the current paradigm are acting like blind alters with sacks over their heads in a coal cellar...
We aren't applying evolutionary theory to ideas, rather we are recognizing that, if all is conscious activity, then CA must be what is evolving, not just outer physical appearances like materialistic Darwinian theory would have us believe. If there is one motto an idealist should always hold when considering science, it is "stop ignoring interiority!"
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
Ben Iscatus wrote: ↑Sat Jul 17, 2021 11:58 am
...malformed like the mind of a demiurge?
If we go with the Greek derivation of demiurge, meaning an artisan, maybe it's now in this kind of mind-set ...
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
Btw, for a great interview with David Altmejd, check out the Art-form forum ...
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
AshvinP wrote: ↑Sat Jul 17, 2021 4:02 amI think we do already know. The gnostic traditions survived in what we call "esoteric Christianity". That involves the Knights Templar, the Rosicrucians, Goethe, Steiner, and all sorts of fascinating and mysterious characters I know... these things sound beyond ridiculous to modern ears, but is it really so much more ridiculous than the assertion that we are all perspectives of one unified Mind? Or that everything we see around us in Nature is mental activity? Or that all past and future experiential states are essentially wrapped up within the ever-present now? I presume you accept all three of those assertions. That was my overall point - if we limit ourselves to exoteric physicalist history, which we really have no warrant to do as idealists, then what you say above is true - your speculation is as good as my speculation is as good as anyone else's about what happened 2000 years ago until modern day, because the framework a priori rules out supersensible and aperspectival (time-free) knowledge. We become complacent with the modern notion that we can never answer these questions with detail and confidence, so we stop asking these questions altogether. If we get beyond that to the esoteric mysteries and evolving Christian tradition, however, then no such limits exist and we can begin to consider that some of these people actually had higher resolution Wisdom on all of these matters, which is now out in the open for everyone to consider and explore for themselves.
All good points ... Truth be told, I was never a fan of the demiurge narrative, so I might have buried that one too if I had the chance It is valid if looking at it through the lens of the evolution of ideation, to understand that just like some species, some ideas don't make the cut. But instead of thinking of it as just survival of the fittest kind, it can also be seen as metamorphosis into the imago kind, except without some notion of finality.
We are having a hard time linking up lately
I am not saying the Gnostic traditions evolved into more mainstream Christian tradition or anything of that sort. I would say the latter mostly came into being via Reformation and has remained pretty static since then. The gnostic and canonical traditions (based on the actual texts) evolved from the more ancient mysteries and has continued evolving right through to present day. Modern esoteric Christianity contains all earlier 'forms' of that metamorphic process within itself. None of that is to say the exoteric traditions should be ignored, because they also are products of metamorphic process and should be thought of as the outer husks to the spiritual interiority of esoteric. So there is value in considering them but they cannot be mistaken for the complete traditon-in-itself.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
I know... these things sound beyond ridiculous to modern ears, but is it really so much more ridiculous than the assertion that we are all perspectives of one unified Mind? Or that everything we see around us in Nature is mental activity? Or that all past and future experiential states are essentially wrapped up within the ever-present now? I presume you accept all three of those assertions. That was my overall point - if we limit ourselves to exoteric physicalist history, which we really have no warrant to do as idealists, then what you say above is true - your speculation is as good as my speculation is as good as anyone else's about what happened 2000 years ago until modern day, because the framework a priori rules out supersensible and aperspectival (time-free) knowledge. We become complacent with the modern notion that we can never answer these questions with detail and confidence, so we stop asking these questions altogether. If we get beyond that to the esoteric mysteries and evolving Christian tradition, however, then no such limits exist and we can begin to consider that some of these people actually had higher resolution Wisdom on all of these matters, which is now out in the open for everyone to consider and explore for themselves.
It is valid if looking at it through the lens of the evolution of ideation, to understand that just like some species, some ideas don't make the cut. But instead of thinking of it as just survival of the fittest kind, it can also be seen as metamorphosis into the imago kind, except without some notion of finality.