Does Anything Matter?

Any topics primarily focused on metaphysics can be discussed here, in a generally casual way, where conversations may take unexpected turns.

Moderator: Soul_of_Shu

User avatar
Soul_of_Shu
Posts: 1585
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:48 pm

Re: Does Anything Matter?

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

Papanca wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:48 pmI'm not saying that Schopenhauer thought that " because a given subjectified 'personal' consciousness is transitory means that such a conscious entity is not meaningfully participating in a relational process of the evolution of transpersonal ideation", but that he didn't believe in any positive evolution of transpersonal ideation to begin with.
And yet from that same mind we get insights about the ideation of music, such as this, which is surely addressing the transformative, creative power of transpersonal Mind, and the alter-mode participation of subjectified 'personal' minds, i.e. us, in an evolutionary exploration of ever more novelty ...

"Music … stands quite apart from all the [other arts]. In it we do not recognize the copy, the repetition, of any Idea of the inner nature of the world. Yet it is such a great and exceedingly fine art, its effect on man’s innermost nature is so powerful, and it is so completely and profoundly understood by him in his innermost being as an entirely universal language, whose distinctness surpasses even that of the world of perception itself, that in it we certainly have to look for more than that exercitium arithmeticae occultum nescientis se numerare animi [“an unconscious exercise in arithmetic in which the mind does not know it is counting”] which Leibniz took it to be… We must attribute to music a far more serious and profound significance that refers to the innermost being of the world and of our own self."
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
User avatar
AshvinP
Posts: 2920
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:00 am
Location: USA

Re: Does Anything Matter?

Post by AshvinP »

Soul_of_Shu wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 2:07 pm
Papanca wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:48 pmI'm not saying that Schopenhauer thought that " because a given subjectified 'personal' consciousness is transitory means that such a conscious entity is not meaningfully participating in a relational process of the evolution of transpersonal ideation", but that he didn't believe in any positive evolution of transpersonal ideation to begin with.
And yet from that same mind we get insights about the ideation of music, such as this, which is surely addressing the transformative, creative power of transpersonal Mind, and the alter-mode participation of subjectified 'personal' minds, i.e. us, in an evolutionary exploration of ever more novelty ...

"Music … stands quite apart from all the [other arts]. In it we do not recognize the copy, the repetition, of any Idea of the inner nature of the world. Yet it is such a great and exceedingly fine art, its effect on man’s innermost nature is so powerful, and it is so completely and profoundly understood by him in his innermost being as an entirely universal language, whose distinctness surpasses even that of the world of perception itself, that in it we certainly have to look for more than that exercitium arithmeticae occultum nescientis se numerare animi [“an unconscious exercise in arithmetic in which the mind does not know it is counting”] which Leibniz took it to be… We must attribute to music a far more serious and profound significance that refers to the innermost being of the world and of our own self."

But also consider this from my latest essay on music:
Ashvin wrote:Artwork must possess living interiority to combat modernity's nihilism - desires, motivations, emotions, thoughts, and, above all, meaning. With respect to the art of music, specifically, the philosophy of Arthur Schopenhauer must be briefly addressed. Schopenhauer was notoriously stingy in what he allowed past Kant's impenetrable curtain hiding the puppeteer pulling the strings of the perceptible world. All perceptions of the noumenal world, according to Schopenhauer, were mental images created within the human being in response to the underlying Will which surges within her. These mental images were a sort of Fata Morgana - a mirage that is dreamed up within each person to represent the imperceptible Will. Only two experiences could bypass these mental mirages and deal with the Will directly - (1) deep meditative experience and (2) the experience of music. Why did Schopenhauer say only music could bypass the Kantian divide rather than other arts such as poetry, sculpting, or painting?

These other art forms work from the mental images - the Fata Morganas - that we find in the realm of immediate sense experience or memory and combine into ideal images for the artwork. When we are confronted by the finished product of these arts, we can clearly identify how they have translated such images into forms which distort, distill, diminish or deepen their meanings. Music, however, does not rely on the human mental images in the same way. Rather, music, with her rhythm, notes, melodies (Melos) and harmonies - are direct expressions of the universal Will which bypass the mental images needed for all other artwork. In this way, Schopenhauer came to intuitively understand the numinous 'superiority' of the musical aesthetic. Yet, as is all too common for philosophers of the modern age, he did not reflect on that intuitive knowing so as to deepen its own meaning.

In such reflection, he would have come to realize that it is precisely when intuitive thought permeates the universal Will that we are brought to the shores of the noumenal aesthetic. That is when we come to know that the musical relations do not refer to anything outside of their own relations. Without this simple realization, the deep connection between the music we hear in waking consciousness and the profound sense of curiosity, wonder, courage, and homecoming which it stirs up within our souls is left at the lowest possible resolution - the connection can be said to exist, but we are left with no clue as to why or how. That all changes when the intuitive ideal element is allowed to take its rightful place in our conscious awareness and enrich the marriage of the questioning Soul with the answering Spirit.
“It is your presumption that freedom is something which you already possess that ensures that you will remain in chains."
User avatar
Soul_of_Shu
Posts: 1585
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:48 pm

Re: Does Anything Matter?

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

AshvinP wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 2:54 pmBut also consider this from my latest essay on music:
Ashvin wrote:Artwork must possess living interiority to combat modernity's nihilism - desires, motivations, emotions, thoughts, and, above all, meaning. With respect to the art of music, specifically, the philosophy of Arthur Schopenhauer must be briefly addressed. Schopenhauer was notoriously stingy in what he allowed past Kant's impenetrable curtain hiding the puppeteer pulling the strings of the perceptible world. All perceptions of the noumenal world, according to Schopenhauer, were mental images created within the human being in response to the underlying Will which surges within her. These mental images were a sort of Fata Morgana - a mirage that is dreamed up within each person to represent the imperceptible Will. Only two experiences could bypass these mental mirages and deal with the Will directly - (1) deep meditative experience and (2) the experience of music. Why did Schopenhauer say only music could bypass the Kantian divide rather than other arts such as poetry, sculpting, or painting?

These other art forms work from the mental images - the Fata Morganas - that we find in the realm of immediate sense experience or memory and combine into ideal images for the artwork. When we are confronted by the finished product of these arts, we can clearly identify how they have translated such images into forms which distort, distill, diminish or deepen their meanings. Music, however, does not rely on the human mental images in the same way. Rather, music, with her rhythm, notes, melodies (Melos) and harmonies - are direct expressions of the universal Will which bypass the mental images needed for all other artwork. In this way, Schopenhauer came to intuitively understand the numinous 'superiority' of the musical aesthetic. Yet, as is all too common for philosophers of the modern age, he did not reflect on that intuitive knowing so as to deepen its own meaning.

In such reflection, he would have come to realize that it is precisely when intuitive thought permeates the universal Will that we are brought to the shores of the noumenal aesthetic. That is when we come to know that the musical relations do not refer to anything outside of their own relations. Without this simple realization, the deep connection between the music we hear in waking consciousness and the profound sense of curiosity, wonder, courage, and homecoming which it stirs up within our souls is left at the lowest possible resolution - the connection can be said to exist, but we are left with no clue as to why or how. That all changes when the intuitive ideal element is allowed to take its rightful place in our conscious awareness and enrich the marriage of the questioning Soul with the answering Spirit.
What can I add, except to say that Schope, like most of us, can come across as a fallible bundle of contradictions, on any given day alternating between one mood and another, who surely was not exempt from shadow projection, and being in need of further introspection, elaboration, and fine-tuning of the expression. In any case, I'm now inclined to be rather more interested in living philosophers than dead ones ... even the aspiring ones here 😘
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
Papanca
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2021 8:52 am

Re: Does Anything Matter?

Post by Papanca »

Soul_of_Shu wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 2:07 pm
Papanca wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:48 pmI'm not saying that Schopenhauer thought that " because a given subjectified 'personal' consciousness is transitory means that such a conscious entity is not meaningfully participating in a relational process of the evolution of transpersonal ideation", but that he didn't believe in any positive evolution of transpersonal ideation to begin with.
And yet from that same mind we get insights about the ideation of music, such as this, which is surely addressing the transformative, creative power of transpersonal Mind, and the alter-mode participation of subjectified 'personal' minds, i.e. us, in an evolutionary exploration of ever more novelty ...

"Music … stands quite apart from all the [other arts]. In it we do not recognize the copy, the repetition, of any Idea of the inner nature of the world. Yet it is such a great and exceedingly fine art, its effect on man’s innermost nature is so powerful, and it is so completely and profoundly understood by him in his innermost being as an entirely universal language, whose distinctness surpasses even that of the world of perception itself, that in it we certainly have to look for more than that exercitium arithmeticae occultum nescientis se numerare animi [“an unconscious exercise in arithmetic in which the mind does not know it is counting”] which Leibniz took it to be… We must attribute to music a far more serious and profound significance that refers to the innermost being of the world and of our own self."
I'm not saying that Schopenhauer hadn't written a single line whatsoever that can be portrayed as optimistic, he did often write positively about renouncing/distancing from the will either through art or mysticism, even in some of the quotes i've posted, this is clear when he makes an exception about art.

My point was that if saying directly, repeatedly that human life has no value and that it whould've been better hadlife never existed isn't sufficient to qualify someone as a pessimist, then nothing is, those type of views with the burden of time are the hallmark of philosophical pessimism.

Here is the definition of philosophical pessimism from Wikipedia

"Philosophical pessimism is the related idea that views the world in a strictly anti-optimistic fashion. This form of pessimism is not an emotional disposition as the term commonly connotes. Instead, it is a philosophy or worldview that directly challenges the notion of progress and what may be considered the faith-based claims of optimism. Philosophical pessimists are often existential nihilists believing that life has no intrinsic meaning or value. Their responses to this condition, however, are widely varied and often life-affirming. "

Schopenhauer satisfies the conditions.
Soul_of_Shu wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:33 pm What can I add, except to say that Schope, like most of us, can come across as a fallible bundle of contradictions, on any given day alternating between one mood and another, who surely was not exempt from shadow projection, and being in need of further introspection, elaboration, and fine-tuning of the expression. In any case, I'm now inclined to be rather more interested in living philosophers than dead ones ... even the aspiring ones here 😘
This is perfectly valid, altough i don't see why living philosophers should be prefered, but let's be careful to not use it only selectively, reading philosophers ceremoniously when their views happen to please and comfort us, and focusing on their faillible nature when their views seem distateful. Everybody is faillible and judge the world through the prism of his own experience, even if you fine-tune and introspect to the outmost dephts of the mind.
User avatar
Soul_of_Shu
Posts: 1585
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:48 pm

Re: Does Anything Matter?

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

Papanca wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 4:14 pmI'm not saying that Schopenhauer hadn't written a single line whatsoever that can be portrayed as optimistic, he did often write positively about renouncing/distancing from the will either through art or mysticism, even in some of the quotes i've posted, this is clear when he makes an exception about art.

My point was that if saying directly, repeatedly that human life has no value and that it whould've been better hadlife never existed isn't sufficient to qualify someone as a pessimist, then nothing is, those type of views with the burden of time are the hallmark of philosophical pessimism.

Here is the definition of philosophical pessimism in Wikipedia

"Philosophical pessimism is the related idea that views the world in a strictly anti-optimistic fashion. This form of pessimism is not an emotional disposition as the term commonly connotes. Instead, it is a philosophy or worldview that directly challenges the notion of progress and what may be considered the faith-based claims of optimism. Philosophical pessimists are often existential nihilists believing that life has no intrinsic meaning or value. Their responses to this condition, however, are widely varied and often life-affirming. "
Suffice to say I'm optimistic that philosophical pessimism will eventually be relegated to an ideational evolutionary dead end ;)
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
Papanca
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2021 8:52 am

Re: Does Anything Matter?

Post by Papanca »

Soul_of_Shu wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 4:30 pm Suffice to say I'm optimistic that philosophical pessimism will eventually be relegated to an ideational evolutionary dead end ;)
Maybe, i just hope that it'll happen through an increase of well-being and mental clarity rather that some darwinian pressures that just root out without any increase of well-being.
User avatar
Soul_of_Shu
Posts: 1585
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:48 pm

Re: Does Anything Matter?

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

Perhaps Schopenhauer might have benefited from a trip to communicate with Schroombäcker ...

Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
SanteriSatama
Posts: 1030
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:07 pm

Re: Does Anything Matter?

Post by SanteriSatama »

Papanca wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 4:45 pm
Soul_of_Shu wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 4:30 pm Suffice to say I'm optimistic that philosophical pessimism will eventually be relegated to an ideational evolutionary dead end ;)
Maybe, i just hope that it'll happen through an increase of well-being and mental clarity rather that some darwinian pressures that just root out without any increase of well-being.
It could be suggested that pessimistic life wisdom produces happy surprices - expect the worst and be happily surprised when worst does not happen - but it doesn't work like that in practice, as attention fixed on negative draws negative events-experiences.

The golden mean is neutral expectation / gelassenheit with ground optimism/well- being that does not seek to consciously determine events. Healthy self-love and self-confidence that wishes well to others is emotionally relatively open, creates a positive back-feed loop between the part-whole structure of self, consisting of local perspective (part) and higher self/universe/call it what you like (whole).
Papanca
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2021 8:52 am

Re: Does Anything Matter?

Post by Papanca »

SanteriSatama wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 7:00 pm
Papanca wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 4:45 pm
Soul_of_Shu wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 4:30 pm Suffice to say I'm optimistic that philosophical pessimism will eventually be relegated to an ideational evolutionary dead end ;)
Maybe, i just hope that it'll happen through an increase of well-being and mental clarity rather that some darwinian pressures that just root out without any increase of well-being.
It could be suggested that pessimistic life wisdom produces happy surprices - expect the worst and be happily surprised when worst does not happen - but it doesn't work like that in practice, as attention fixed on negative draws negative events-experiences.

The golden mean is neutral expectation / gelassenheit with ground optimism/well- being that does not seek to consciously determine events. Healthy self-love and self-confidence that wishes well to others is emotionally relatively open, creates a positive back-feed loop between the part-whole structure of self, consisting of local perspective (part) and higher self/universe/call it what you like (whole).
This is presuming that one can chose what attitude to adopt, the attitude and philosophical view may itself be a result of temperament and life-experiences/their interaction. The egg and the chicken, who came first and all that jazz.

But philosophical pessimism isn't about expectation, i think you are confusing it with psychological pessimism.
User avatar
AshvinP
Posts: 2920
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:00 am
Location: USA

Re: Does Anything Matter?

Post by AshvinP »

Soul_of_Shu wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:33 pm
AshvinP wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 2:54 pmBut also consider this from my latest essay on music:
Ashvin wrote:Artwork must possess living interiority to combat modernity's nihilism - desires, motivations, emotions, thoughts, and, above all, meaning. With respect to the art of music, specifically, the philosophy of Arthur Schopenhauer must be briefly addressed. Schopenhauer was notoriously stingy in what he allowed past Kant's impenetrable curtain hiding the puppeteer pulling the strings of the perceptible world. All perceptions of the noumenal world, according to Schopenhauer, were mental images created within the human being in response to the underlying Will which surges within her. These mental images were a sort of Fata Morgana - a mirage that is dreamed up within each person to represent the imperceptible Will. Only two experiences could bypass these mental mirages and deal with the Will directly - (1) deep meditative experience and (2) the experience of music. Why did Schopenhauer say only music could bypass the Kantian divide rather than other arts such as poetry, sculpting, or painting?

These other art forms work from the mental images - the Fata Morganas - that we find in the realm of immediate sense experience or memory and combine into ideal images for the artwork. When we are confronted by the finished product of these arts, we can clearly identify how they have translated such images into forms which distort, distill, diminish or deepen their meanings. Music, however, does not rely on the human mental images in the same way. Rather, music, with her rhythm, notes, melodies (Melos) and harmonies - are direct expressions of the universal Will which bypass the mental images needed for all other artwork. In this way, Schopenhauer came to intuitively understand the numinous 'superiority' of the musical aesthetic. Yet, as is all too common for philosophers of the modern age, he did not reflect on that intuitive knowing so as to deepen its own meaning.

In such reflection, he would have come to realize that it is precisely when intuitive thought permeates the universal Will that we are brought to the shores of the noumenal aesthetic. That is when we come to know that the musical relations do not refer to anything outside of their own relations. Without this simple realization, the deep connection between the music we hear in waking consciousness and the profound sense of curiosity, wonder, courage, and homecoming which it stirs up within our souls is left at the lowest possible resolution - the connection can be said to exist, but we are left with no clue as to why or how. That all changes when the intuitive ideal element is allowed to take its rightful place in our conscious awareness and enrich the marriage of the questioning Soul with the answering Spirit.
What can I add, except to say that Schope, like most of us, can come across as a fallible bundle of contradictions, on any given day alternating between one mood and another, who surely was not exempt from shadow projection, and being in need of further introspection, elaboration, and fine-tuning of the expression. In any case, I'm now inclined to be rather more interested in living philosophers than dead ones ... even the aspiring ones here 😘

Was it Whitehead who said, "everyone is the unconscious proponent of some dead philosopher" [my addition: "especially the living ones"]? And I think it was William James who said something along the lines of, "once you figure out a philosopher's core idea, you can understand everything else they write". That's the only reason these things matter IMO (apart from the mental discipline of reading philosophy) - the core ideas are deeply implanted in our culture and most people are living them out in one way or another. If we can figure out the core ideas of a Schope, who has massively influenced Western philosophy, then a lot of other philosophical arguments are easier to understand. I couldn't care less about whether Schope was a grumpy person, a misogynist, etc... I just want to discern how his ideas are still alive today. And, as far as the 'meaning crisis' of the modern age goes, he definitely contributed his fair share to making it worse. At least Kant "got rid of knowledge to make room for faith"... Schope just got rid of knowledge to make room for nothing else of value.
“It is your presumption that freedom is something which you already possess that ensures that you will remain in chains."
Post Reply