Discussion pertaining to old MS forum thread.

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AshvinP
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Re: Discussion pertaining to old MS forum thread.

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Ben Iscatus wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:08 am
"New age BS and blind hubris" is not sneering tone?
No, it's not. The suggestion that we are in control of our destiny is just ridiculous and deserves to be called out. I suggest you read the latest post by John Michael Greer.
https://www.ecosophia.net/the-future-is-a-landscape/

I did the whole "collapse" blog thing for awhile - peak oil, peak climate warming, peak arable land use, peak financial debt, peak asset bubbles, peak this, peak that. They are the most low resolution fragments of truth about very complex systems, which explains why their predictions on timing of these things is always off. If I remember correctly, JMG is an Archdruid, which ties into ancient Germanic-Norse mythology. I may give that some coverage in a future essay. And if JMG understands the deep spiritual foundation of Druidry, then he must be an optimist in the exact same way I am. It all comes down to whether we take idealism and/or our spiritual worldview seriously - some people just like the feeling of "belonging" to an interesting sub-culture, and then import abstract physicalism and all its rigid thinking into that view so there is no practical difference in their thinking or their lives. You may want to call yourself out on that one.
“It is your presumption that freedom is something which you already possess that ensures that you will remain in chains."
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AshvinP
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Re: Discussion pertaining to old MS forum thread.

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AshvinP wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:46 pm
Ben Iscatus wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:08 am
"New age BS and blind hubris" is not sneering tone?
No, it's not. The suggestion that we are in control of our destiny is just ridiculous and deserves to be called out. I suggest you read the latest post by John Michael Greer.
https://www.ecosophia.net/the-future-is-a-landscape/

I did the whole "collapse" blog thing for awhile - peak oil, peak climate warming, peak arable land use, peak financial debt, peak asset bubbles, peak this, peak that. They are the most low resolution fragments of truth about very complex systems, which explains why their predictions on timing of these things is always off. If I remember correctly, JMG is an Archdruid, which ties into ancient Germanic-Norse mythology. I may give that some coverage in a future essay. And if JMG understands the deep spiritual foundation of Druidry, then he must be an optimist in the exact same way I am. It all comes down to whether we take idealism and/or our spiritual worldview seriously - some people just like the feeling of "belonging" to an interesting sub-culture, and then import abstract physicalism and all its rigid thinking into that view so there is no practical difference in their thinking or their lives. You may want to call yourself out on that one.

Although JMG is clearly still thinking in rigid modern physicalist terms when dealing with scientific theories, I will give him credit for trying to take a more holistic, long-range view of what's happening.

JMG wrote:What I’m suggesting is that we need to think of the future as a landscape: not a single place where only one thing happens and nothing ever changes again, but as a vast and unmapped territory with many different kinds of terrain, where many groups of people live in many different ways, some more successfully than others. Remember, too, that most of the people who live in that landscape will never have heard of us and won’t care about what we thought or said or did. I suspect that that’s the thing that galls our collective sense of entitlement most bitterly and generates the shrill self-pity so common these days—“but we’re special!”

No, not to the landscape of the future, we aren’t. The sooner we let go of our overinflated sense of importance and grasp that we’re just one civilization out of many, going through the familiar arc of rise and fall, the sooner we can get to work on the possibilities that are still within reach.

Now let me try to relate this back to the actual focus of this forum and thread. Some modern philosophers have also come to the bolded conclusion - see Oswald Spengler's The Decline of the West, for example. That is a much higher resolution analysis which looks at the metaphysical underpinnings and evolving dynamics of all ancient civilizations (of current age) up to the present day. So what are the "possibilities that are still within reach"? I hold those are precisely the possibilities of expanding our consciousness and leaving behind this rigid, mechanical thinking of the modern age, where everyone perceives themselves as helpless and isolated cogs in a machine, constrained by the dictates of physical contours and resources, thereby creating a self-fulfilling and Self-destroying prophecy, instead of actively participatory 'becomings'; microcosms of the macrocosm. If you want to put Goethe, Schiller, Hegel, Coleridge, Steiner, Spengler, Bergson, Barfield, Teilhard de Chardin, Sri Auribindo, etc., along with all foundational ancient philosophy and mythology, into "new age" that's fine, but their shared intuitions are certainly not "BS".

Wiki wrote:For Spengler becoming is the basic element and being is static and secondary, not the other way around. He advises that his philosophy in a nutshell is contained in these lines from Goethe: "the God-head is effective in the living and not in the dead, in the becoming and the changing, not in the become and the set-fast; and therefore, similarly the intuition is concerned only to strive towards the divine through the becoming and the living, and logic only to make use of the become and the set-fast".
“It is your presumption that freedom is something which you already possess that ensures that you will remain in chains."
Ben Iscatus
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Re: Discussion pertaining to old MS forum thread.

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I must give you credit for a good and thoughtful reply -thank you, Ashvin. The problem I have is with the idea that dissociated alter-humans can ever simply direct themselves to evolve spiritually . Our minds are like an iceberg - most of what drives us is beyond the control of our rational understanding (Jung). The impulse to evolve spiritually, or to give way to evil (e.g. as in The Third Reich), acts via parts of our mind we are simply not metaconscious of.
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Re: Discussion pertaining to old MS forum thread.

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Ben Iscatus wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:30 pm I must give you credit for a good and thoughtful reply -thank you, Ashvin. The problem I have is with the idea that dissociated alter-humans can ever simply direct themselves to evolve spiritually . Our minds are like an iceberg - most of what drives us is beyond the control of our rational understanding (Jung). The impulse to evolve spiritually, or to give way to evil (e.g. as in The Third Reich), acts via parts of our mind we are simply not metaconscious of.

Right, so first we need to figure out whether "rational understanding" is the absolute limit capacity of our minds. I say we only hold that it is because we are so accustomed to doing so in the modern age, but the rest of human history and our own experience with aesthetics and mythology, if we contemplate it carefully without prejudice, should indicate that we can go beyond mere rational intellect, and make significant portions of the unconscious conscious. Jung's "individuation" is that process and he wrote about "active imagination" as an exercise to help transcend mere intellect. All of this information, insights, exercises, etc. on higher cognition is available, we just need to take it seriously and put in some effort to engage it. That's what is most worrisome to me - so many people dismiss these possibilities because they are not even aware of them or, they are aware, but have never taken them seriously.
“It is your presumption that freedom is something which you already possess that ensures that you will remain in chains."
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AshvinP
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Re: Discussion pertaining to old MS forum thread.

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AshvinP wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:09 pm
Ben Iscatus wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:30 pm I must give you credit for a good and thoughtful reply -thank you, Ashvin. The problem I have is with the idea that dissociated alter-humans can ever simply direct themselves to evolve spiritually . Our minds are like an iceberg - most of what drives us is beyond the control of our rational understanding (Jung). The impulse to evolve spiritually, or to give way to evil (e.g. as in The Third Reich), acts via parts of our mind we are simply not metaconscious of.

Right, so first we need to figure out whether "rational understanding" is the absolute limit capacity of our minds. I say we only hold that it is because we are so accustomed to doing so in the modern age, but the rest of human history and our own experience with aesthetics and mythology, if we contemplate it carefully without prejudice, should indicate that we can go beyond mere rational intellect, and make significant portions of the unconscious conscious. Jung's "individuation" is that process and he wrote about "active imagination" as an exercise to help transcend mere intellect. All of this information, insights, exercises, etc. on higher cognition is available, we just need to take it seriously and put in some effort to engage it. That's what is most worrisome to me - so many people dismiss these possibilities because they are not even aware of them or, they are aware, but have never taken them seriously.


As Synchronicity would have it, I just came across this tweet below. I think the course mentioned just happened a few hours ago, but I am sure there are more scheduled later. I plan on checking one out soon. This "third aspect" referred to in Jung's approach described below, which allows for transcendent meaning, is what we call the "Spirit".







“It is your presumption that freedom is something which you already possess that ensures that you will remain in chains."
Ben Iscatus
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Re: Discussion pertaining to old MS forum thread.

Post by Ben Iscatus »

Jung's "individuation" is that process and he wrote about "active imagination" as an exercise to help transcend mere intellect. All of this information, insights, exercises, etc. on higher cognition is available, we just need to take it seriously and put in some effort to engage it. That's what is most worrisome to me - so many people dismiss these possibilities because they are not even aware of them or, they are aware, but have never taken them seriously.
So how does this work in practice then, Ashvin? Imaginary conversation:

Voter: Why should I vote for you?

New Clued-up Individuated Candidate: Because I am a graduate in Active Imagination; I have greater access to my soul's purpose and will always seek the wise and sustainable direction for our civilisation.

Usual Clueless Egomaniac Candidate: I'll throw infinite funny money into the economy and keep the immigrants out. And of course I'll cut your taxes.

Voter: Right! Obviously I'll be voting for for the Clued-up guy.
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Re: Discussion pertaining to old MS forum thread.

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Ben Iscatus wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 11:04 am
Jung's "individuation" is that process and he wrote about "active imagination" as an exercise to help transcend mere intellect. All of this information, insights, exercises, etc. on higher cognition is available, we just need to take it seriously and put in some effort to engage it. That's what is most worrisome to me - so many people dismiss these possibilities because they are not even aware of them or, they are aware, but have never taken them seriously.
So how does this work in practice then, Ashvin? Imaginary conversation:

Voter: Why should I vote for you?

New Clued-up Individuated Candidate: Because I am a graduate in Active Imagination; I have greater access to my soul's purpose and will always seek the wise and sustainable direction for our civilisation.

Usual Clueless Egomaniac Candidate: I'll throw infinite funny money into the economy and keep the immigrants out. And of course I'll cut your taxes.

Voter: Right! Obviously I'll be voting for for the Clued-up guy.

I didn't say I am a "graduate" in Active Imagination. I am exploring like everyone else. I am that candidate telling people if they vote for me I will make them work harder and earn everything they get - no handouts or one-size fits all "solutions"! I guess that's why my political career never took off 😕

Seriously, check out the course in those tweets. I plan on signing up for one soon. The slide gives a pretty good summary of the process. These things will take time and effort, and approach from multiple angles. There is no leap in one bound to redeeming all of Creation, but our steps can cover much more ground than we currently fail to Imagine.
“It is your presumption that freedom is something which you already possess that ensures that you will remain in chains."
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