Jim Cross wrote: ↑Sun Aug 08, 2021 6:48 pm
Finally, the chunky man with the bald head might seem to be the best evidence. Unfortunately, since the patient saw the same man the next day before he provided this account, it is impossible to know if the bald head was part of the original experience or a detail added later after the patient met the person.
Thanks for providing the details. That is a valid doubt, so scientifically it is not 100% solid evidence, but personally I do not see a reason for the guy to lie and add that detail after meeting the guy.
On the other hand, the physicalist hypothesis is ought to explain why in an overwhelming number of NDE accounts people consistently report leaving their bodies and observing events "from above". This is something that (almost) never happen in the psychedelic, hallucination or dream experiences, yet regularly happen in OBE experiences (including my own).
"Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kanzas anymore" Dorothy
Jim Cross wrote: ↑Sun Aug 08, 2021 6:48 pm
Finally, the chunky man with the bald head might seem to be the best evidence. Unfortunately, since the patient saw the same man the next day before he provided this account, it is impossible to know if the bald head was part of the original experience or a detail added later after the patient met the person.
Thanks for providing the details. That is a valid doubt, so scientifically it is not 100% solid evidence, but personally I do not see a reason for the guy to lie and add that detail after meeting the guy.
On the other hand, the physicalist hypothesis is ought to explain why in an overwhelming number of NDE accounts people consistently report leaving their bodies and observing events "from above". This is something that (almost) never happen in the psychedelic, hallucination or dream experiences, yet regularly happen in OBE experiences (including my own).
I don't think it is a matter of lying. It is how human memory works. When people are interviewed immediately after a significant event and re-interviewed later, they will often add new details to the narrative. That's the whole problem with this research especially when it involves interviews after a significant amount of time has passed. The same sorts of problems arise in UFO research. There was a study done of a mass shooting and some people who weren't even at the scene of the shooting six months later could provide a detailed description of the shooter they believed they saw that day.
I've thought about this AWARE study by Parnia some more and actually think that many conclusions Parnia seems to draw are not really supported by the actual study of the data.
This was a four year study with over two thousand cardiac arrest and with ORs specifically designed with information hidden that could only be seen from a position outside of the body.
Not a single instance of a patient having knowledge of that information was found.
Only two people even claimed to have any experience that might correlate with cardiac arrest. Only one could be interviewed and the claim as best I can tell almost totally relies on a chunky bald man in blue scrubs that patient met the day after the event.
All in all, I think the study is strong evidence demonstrating that any sort of veridical experience is impossible during a period when the brain is shut down.
In his book "After" Bruce Greyson goes into detail about cases with veridical aspects including a man who saw his own body with chest open and his doctor making strange unexpected motions that were later verified. Bruce had his own experience with veridical elements early in his career. Some cases include coins found on top of cabinets. There was a case in another book where a woman woke up after an operation and said she saw an amputation performed in the next room with the amputated leg being put in a yellow bag. Verified.
Not sure what more people want. You can accept the experiences of people that had them or convoluted theories that explain nothing.
Bottom line is there is no physical explanation for consciousness and no explanation of why I should exist as a seemingly specific individualized consciousness associated with a specific body after billions and billions of other bodies have been around not seemingly associated with my existence.
" Many of the best accounts are old with most of the people surrounding the account dead so any follow-up is impossible.
Finally, if NDEs are taken somewhat at face value, it is hard to know what to conclude from them. Most people who have near death episode have no recollection of anything. Going by majority rule, we would have to conclude there is nothing to experience after life ends."
The above are particularly bizarre statements that can only be considered total nonsense.
Most of the witnesses are dead?! What's that based on? Bruce is very much alive as well as Kimberly Clarke Sharpe and many others. Plus more and more veridical experiences are happening every day even if we don't hear about them.
Majority rules?! REALLY? This is supposed to be taken seriously? If there is even one veridical experience of non-local perception the whole edifice of materialism goes down the toilet.
On the other hand, the physicalist hypothesis is ought to explain why in an overwhelming number of NDE accounts people consistently report leaving their bodies and observing events "from above". This is something that (almost) never happen in the psychedelic, hallucination or dream experiences, yet regularly happen in OBE experiences (including my own).
Ketamine especially is linked to out of body experiences.
Shamans regularly fly to the sky or dive into the underworld in out of body trips.
Flying and floating are common dream experiences.
So OBEs occur across a range of psychedelics and other common experiences. What is common to them is a reduction or garbling of sensory input from the body (ketamine is an anesthetic) leading to a sensation of disconnection.
Actually, I now consider the term 'out-of-body' experience to be a misnomer, because the psyche is never actually in a body to begin with
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
tjssailor wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:00 pm
In his book "After" Bruce Greyson goes into detail about cases with veridical aspects including a man who saw his own body with chest open and his doctor making strange unexpected motions that were later verified. Bruce had his own experience with veridical elements early in his career. Some cases include coins found on top of cabinets. There was a case in another book where a woman woke up after an operation and said she saw an amputation performed in the next room with the amputated leg being put in a yellow bag. Verified.
Not sure what more people want. You can accept the experiences of people that had them or convoluted theories that explain nothing.
Bottom line is there is no physical explanation for consciousness and no explanation of why I should exist as a seemingly specific individualized consciousness associated with a specific body after billions and billions of other bodies have been around not seemingly associated with my existence.
" Many of the best accounts are old with most of the people surrounding the account dead so any follow-up is impossible.
Finally, if NDEs are taken somewhat at face value, it is hard to know what to conclude from them. Most people who have near death episode have no recollection of anything. Going by majority rule, we would have to conclude there is nothing to experience after life ends."
The above are particularly bizarre statements that can only be considered total nonsense.
Most of the witnesses are dead?! What's that based on? Bruce is very much alive as well as Kimberly Clarke Sharpe and many others. Plus more and more veridical experiences are happening every day even if we don't hear about them.
Majority rules?! REALLY? This is supposed to be taken seriously? If there is even one veridical experience of non-local perception the whole edifice of materialism goes down the toilet.
There was a controlled study by Parnia that has been the subject of discussion. It found NOTHING.
You have anecdotal accounts.
What this shows is the wish to believe can overpower all logic and reasoning.
Jim Cross wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 11:54 am
Eugene,
I've thought about this AWARE study by Parnia some more and actually think that many conclusions Parnia seems to draw are not really supported by the actual study of the data.
This was a four year study with over two thousand cardiac arrest and with ORs specifically designed with information hidden that could only be seen from a position outside of the body.
Not a single instance of a patient having knowledge of that information was found.
Only two people even claimed to have any experience that might correlate with cardiac arrest. Only one could be interviewed and the claim as best I can tell almost totally relies on a chunky bald man in blue scrubs that patient met the day after the event.
All in all, I think the study is strong evidence demonstrating that any sort of veridical experience is impossible during a period when the brain is shut down.
Yes, I know about that study. I think when you are having a cardiac arrest and experiencing leaving your body and having some extraordinary experiences, the last thing you are interested is looking at some signs placed on top of some shelves in the room
"Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kanzas anymore" Dorothy
Eugene I wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:21 pmYes, I know about that study. I think when you are having a cardiac arrest and experiencing leaving your body and having some extraordinary experiences, the last thing you are interested is looking at some signs placed on top of some shelves in the room
Apparently some are much more interested in a leg amputation going on in another OR, kinda like the rubber-necking gawking for the gory details that goes on when passing a bad vehicle collision on the highway
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
" Many of the best accounts are old with most of the people surrounding the account dead so any follow-up is impossible.
Finally, if NDEs are taken somewhat at face value, it is hard to know what to conclude from them. Most people who have near death episode have no recollection of anything. Going by majority rule, we would have to conclude there is nothing to experience after life ends."
The above are particularly bizarre statements that can only be considered total nonsense.
Most of the witnesses are dead?! What's that based on? Bruce is very much alive as well as Kimberly Clarke Sharpe and many others. Plus more and more veridical experiences are happening every day even if we don't hear about them.
Majority rules?! REALLY? This is supposed to be taken seriously? If there is even one veridical experience of non-local perception the whole edifice of materialism goes down the toilet.
There was a controlled study by Parnia that has been the subject of discussion. It found NOTHING.
You have anecdotal accounts.
What this shows is the wish to believe can overpower all logic and reasoning.
You totally ignore my points
What this shows is wish to believe can overpower all logic and reasoning.
