why denying the existence of The Light and The Tunnel among academia?

Any topics primarily focused on metaphysics can be discussed here, in a generally casual way, where conversations may take unexpected turns.
Jim Cross
Posts: 758
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:36 pm

Re: why denying the existence of The Light and The Tunnel among academia?

Post by Jim Cross »

Eugene I wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:42 pm
Jim Cross wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 11:35 am Finally, if NDEs are taken somewhat at face value, it is hard to know what to conclude from them. Most people who have near death episode have no recollection of anything. Going by majority rule, we would have to conclude there is nothing to experience after life ends. If we want to look at the experiences of the minority, a half or more have horrible experiences to report.
Well, first, according to Sam Parina studies, about 20% of people resuscitated after clinical death people report NDE-like experiences, which is not statistically insignificant. Second, a low statistical frequency/probability of occurring is never an argument to dismiss any facts in any scientific study. The probability of producing a Higgs boson in Hadron Collider in a random particle collision is 1 in 10 billion, yet this has no relevance to the experimental proof of its existence as long as the events are reproducible with significant enough statistical value.

Because Higgs boson production in a particle collision is likely to be very rare (1 in 10 billion at the LHC),[m] and many other possible collision events can have similar decay signatures, the data of hundreds of trillions of collisions needs to be analysed and must "show the same picture" before a conclusion about the existence of the Higgs boson can be reached. To conclude that a new particle has been found, particle physicists require that the statistical analysis of two independent particle detectors each indicate that there is lesser than a one-in-a-million chance that the observed decay signatures are due to just background random Standard Model events – i.e., that the observed number of events is more than five standard deviations (sigma) different from that expected if there was no new particle. More collision data allows better confirmation of the physical properties of any new particle observed, and allows physicists to decide whether it is indeed a Higgs boson as described by the Standard Model or some other hypothetical new particle.

In July 2017, CERN confirmed that all measurements still agree with the predictions of the Standard Model, and called the discovered particle simply "the Higgs boson".[1] As of 2019, the Large Hadron Collider has continued to produce findings that confirm the 2013 understanding of the Higgs field and particle.
Let's not compare to physics where a passing statistical test is five standard deviations since there isn't any statistical test that can be used to verify any hypothesis regarding NDEs. Your 20% isn't a statistical test. It is just a raw number.

If near death experiences are anything more than brain generated images, you ought to be able to explain why almost all people who have a near death episode don't have them. Most, but not all, reported experiences involve cardiovascular failure which results in decreased blood and oxygen flow to brain. The simplest, most parsimonious explanation is that is what shuts down parts of the brain and the occasionally "remembered" experiences are reconstructed narratives of some experience occurring just before and/or just after flatline.
User avatar
Soul_of_Shu
Posts: 2023
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:48 pm
Contact:

Re: why denying the existence of The Light and The Tunnel among academia?

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

Jim Cross wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 11:35 am As a note, the original post said zero about NDEs. It may have been intended as a reference to NDEs but, in fact, only mentions tunnels and light. That experience can occur in many different circumstances and is clearly caused by a drop in blood flow to the brain. I've had the experience myself when a technician missed a blood vessel or punctured it (not sure which) while I was donating plasma.
And, as mentioned, I've known the bliss experience of the phenomenal realm dissolving into an all-pervading 'light', associated with mystics down through the ages, having nothing to do with a NDE event, cardiac arrest, lack of oxygen, or drugs, etc. I've also had the experience, quite a few times, of fainting into a nauseating blackout due to lack of blood flow to the brain. And I can only say that there is no comparison between those distinct experiences. So again, why is there definitive reason to conclude that in all cases it is "clearly caused by a drop in blood flow to the brain"? Indeed, since I know of no way that a spontaneous experience such as so many mystics have had could be scientifically examined, except long after the fact, such a conclusion can only be speculative.
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
User avatar
AshvinP
Posts: 5477
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:00 am
Location: USA

Re: why denying the existence of The Light and The Tunnel among academia?

Post by AshvinP »

Soul_of_Shu wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 2:14 pm
Jim Cross wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 11:35 am As a note, the original post said zero about NDEs. It may have been intended as a reference to NDEs but, in fact, only mentions tunnels and light. That experience can occur in many different circumstances and is clearly caused by a drop in blood flow to the brain. I've had the experience myself when a technician missed a blood vessel or punctured it (not sure which) while I was donating plasma.
And, as mentioned, I've known the bliss experience of the phenomenal realm dissolving into an all-pervading 'light', associated with mystics down through the ages, having nothing to do with a NDE event, cardiac arrest, lack of oxygen, or drugs, etc. I've also had the experience, quite a few times, of fainting into a nauseating blackout due to lack of blood flow to the brain. And I can only say that there is no comparison between those distinct experiences. So again, why is there definitive reason to conclude that in all cases it is "clearly caused by a drop in blood flow to the brain"? Indeed, since I know of no way that a spontaneous experience such as so many mystics have had could be scientifically examined, except long after the fact, such a conclusion can only be speculative.

These are also good points. If I remember correct, you (Jim) even acknowledged previously that mystical experience as recounted by ancient Buddhist spiritual tradition is an approach of noumenal Reality, in the framework of Rovelli's relational QM. Why are you assuming NDE experiences of a similar nature are completely unrelated to those mystical experiences?
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
User avatar
Soul_of_Shu
Posts: 2023
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:48 pm
Contact:

Re: why denying the existence of The Light and The Tunnel among academia?

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
User avatar
Eugene I
Posts: 1484
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:49 pm

Re: why denying the existence of The Light and The Tunnel among academia?

Post by Eugene I »

Jim Cross wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 2:03 pm Let's not compare to physics where a passing statistical test is five standard deviations since there isn't any statistical test that can be used to verify any hypothesis regarding NDEs. Your 20% isn't a statistical test. It is just a raw number.

If near death experiences are anything more than brain generated images, you ought to be able to explain why almost all people who have a near death episode don't have them. Most, but not all, reported experiences involve cardiovascular failure which results in decreased blood and oxygen flow to brain. The simplest, most parsimonious explanation is that is what shuts down parts of the brain and the occasionally "remembered" experiences are reconstructed narratives of some experience occurring just before and/or just after flatline.
Oh, we discussed that so many times already :) Those two evidences from Sam Parina study reported reproducible events during the period of the flatline. Of course 2 evidences are statistically insufficient to consider them as proven facts, so more data is needed. Also, such parsimonious explanation does not explain at all why NDE experiences are so consistent while psychedelic, dreaming or hallucinatory experiences are typically entirely inconsistent.
"Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kanzas anymore" Dorothy
Jim Cross
Posts: 758
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:36 pm

Re: why denying the existence of The Light and The Tunnel among academia?

Post by Jim Cross »

Soul_of_Shu wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 2:14 pm
Jim Cross wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 11:35 am As a note, the original post said zero about NDEs. It may have been intended as a reference to NDEs but, in fact, only mentions tunnels and light. That experience can occur in many different circumstances and is clearly caused by a drop in blood flow to the brain. I've had the experience myself when a technician missed a blood vessel or punctured it (not sure which) while I was donating plasma.
And, as mentioned, I've known the bliss experience of the phenomenal realm dissolving into an all-pervading 'light', associated with mystics down through the ages, having nothing to do with a NDE event, cardiac arrest, lack of oxygen, or drugs, etc. I've also had the experience, quite a few times, of fainting into a nauseating blackout due to lack of blood flow to the brain. And I can only say that there is no comparison between those distinct experiences. So again, why is there definitive reason to conclude that in all cases it is "clearly caused by a drop in blood flow to the brain"? Indeed, since I know of no way that a spontaneous experience such as so many mystics have had could be scientifically examined, except long after the fact, such a conclusion can only be speculative.
You've converted a post on tunnels and light, which are accounted for with lack of blood in the brain, into an all-encompassing mystical light topic.

My comments have been focused on tunnels and light, not every mystical experience we can catalog. The vast array of experiences can have many different causes from brain lesions, psychoactive drugs, epileptic-like neuron firings, effect of strong synchronous neuron firings which can be entrained through meditative techniques, to vivid imagination.

Interestingly, however, there is some suggestive evidence of a possible possible communication mechanism between neurons that involves photons. It might be that the light literally is the light of the brain itself.
Jim Cross
Posts: 758
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:36 pm

Re: why denying the existence of The Light and The Tunnel among academia?

Post by Jim Cross »

"reproducible events"

Huh? You mean you can reproduce NDEs on demand? Tell me how.

Can you quote something a study that claims "reproducible events"?

I guess you could do experiments like in the movie Flatliners but whether you would consistently generate NDEs is another matter entirely.
User avatar
Soul_of_Shu
Posts: 2023
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:48 pm
Contact:

Re: why denying the existence of The Light and The Tunnel among academia?

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

Jim Cross wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 3:24 pmYou've converted a post on tunnels and light, which are accounted for with lack of blood in the brain, into an all-encompassing mystical light topic.

My comments have been focused on tunnels and light, not every mystical experience we can catalog. The vast array of experiences can have many different causes from brain lesions, psychoactive drugs, epileptic-like neuron firings, effect of strong synchronous neuron firings which can be entrained through meditative techniques, to vivid imagination.

Interestingly, however, there is some suggestive evidence of a possible possible communication mechanism between neurons that involves photons. It might be that the light literally is the light of the brain itself.
Granted, I'm assuming that Maarten's reference to the 'The Light', emphasized by being capitalized, is alluding to some transcendent experience beyond just the usual sensory experience, and thus is implying some mystical connotation, comparable to the 'Light' spoken of in the paper I linked to above, which, for what it's worth, I seriously doubt that there can be some definitive explicatiion within scientific academia, as it currently stands.
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
User avatar
Eugene I
Posts: 1484
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:49 pm

Re: why denying the existence of The Light and The Tunnel among academia?

Post by Eugene I »

Jim Cross wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 3:28 pm "reproducible events"

Huh? You mean you can reproduce NDEs on demand? Tell me how.

Can you quote something a study that claims "reproducible events"?

I guess you could do experiments like in the movie Flatliners but whether you would consistently generate NDEs is another matter entirely.
Sorry, I should have said "verifiable events". From Sam Parina 2014 paper: "One had a verifiable period of conscious awareness during which time cerebral function was not expected." Later they discovered another similar case.
"Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kanzas anymore" Dorothy
Jim Cross
Posts: 758
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:36 pm

Re: why denying the existence of The Light and The Tunnel among academia?

Post by Jim Cross »

Eugene I wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 4:17 pm
Jim Cross wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 3:28 pm "reproducible events"

Huh? You mean you can reproduce NDEs on demand? Tell me how.

Can you quote something a study that claims "reproducible events"?

I guess you could do experiments like in the movie Flatliners but whether you would consistently generate NDEs is another matter entirely.
Sorry, I should have said "verifiable events". From Sam Parina 2014 paper: "One had a verifiable period of conscious awareness during which time cerebral function was not expected." Later they discovered another similar case.
The details on that one recall seem sort of sketchy to me. Even Parnia himself writes:
"Thus, while it was not possible to absolutely prove the reality or meaning of patients' experiences and claims of awareness, (due to the very low incidence (2 per cent) of explicit recall of visual awareness or so called OBE's), it was impossible to disclaim them either and more work is needed in this area. Clearly, the recalled experience surrounding death now merits further genuine investigation without prejudice."
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 092108.htm

The problem comes in what the patient described while his heart was stopped. Was it simply standard resuscitation activities that anyone might imagine would occur during cardiac arrest?

Here is some more detail on the verifiable case.
The other, a
57 year old man described the perception of observing events from
the top corner of the room and continued to experience a sensation of looking down from above. He accurately described people,
sounds, and activities from his resuscitation (Table 2 provides
quotes from this interview). His medical records corroborated his
accounts and specifically supported his descriptions and the use of
an automated external defibrillator (AED). Based on current AED
algorithms, this likely corresponded with up to 3 min of conscious
awareness during CA and CPR.2 As both CA events had occurred in
non-acute areas without shelves further analysis of the accuracy of
VA based on the ability to visualize the images above or below the
shelf was not possible.


And here is actual account of the patient. I highlighted in bold some of the relevant statements. First, note he was awake and aware in the in the room with the nurse before the resuscitation occurred. So he was conscious and saw the room. The shock the patient voice actually doesn't seem to me to be likely what would be said during a medical resuscitation. It seems more like something a person might imagine was said. However, it would not be inconsistent with what might be said but the patient himself acknowledges he doesn't know if it was said. Finally, the chunky man with
the bald head might seem to be the best evidence. Unfortunately, since the patient saw the same man the next day before he provided this account, it is impossible to know if the bald head was part of the original experience or a detail added later after the patient met the person.
(Before the cardiac arrest) “I was answering (the nurse), but I could also
feel a real hard pressure on my groin. I could feel the pressure, couldn’t
feel the pain or anything like that, just real hard pressure, like someone
was really pushing down on me.
And I was still talking to (the nurse) and
then all of a sudden, I wasn’t. I must have (blanked out). . ..but then I can
remember vividly an automated voice saying, “shock the patient, shock
the patient,”
and with that, up in (the) corner of the room there was a
(woman) beckoning me. . .I can remember thinking to myself, “I can’t get
up there”. . .she beckoned me. . . I felt that she knew me, I felt that I
could trust her, and I felt she was there for a reason and I didn’t know
what that was. . .and the next second, I was up there, looking down at
me, the nurse, and another man who had a bald head.
. .I couldn’t see his
face but I could see the back of his body. He was quite a chunky fella. . .
He had blue scrubs on, and he had a blue hat, but I could tell he didn’t
have any hair, because of where the hat was.
The next thing I remember is waking up on (the) bed. And (the nurse) said
to me: “Oh you nodded off. . .you are back with us now.” Whether she
said those words, whether that automated voice really happened, I don’t
know
. . .. I can remember feeling quite euphoric. . .
I know who (the man with the blue had was). . .I (didn’t) know his full
name, but. . .he was the man that. . .(I saw) the next day. . .I saw this
man [come to visit me] and I knew who I had seen the day before.”
https://www.neardeathexperience.us/wp-c ... _AWARE.pdf
Post Reply