Intuitive Idealism vs. Analytic Idealism (Part II): An alternative formulation of idealism

[Soul_of_Shu]

I don't think that is what is happening. This is my reasoned conclusion and not simply something I am repeating from Steiner or Cleric, although their Thinking also pointed me in the right direction. The problem is that we don't sense our true Thinking anymore, it just happens in the background without us being aware. It is like our breathing but even harder for modern intellect to bring into full conscious awareness. You are never simply "feeling" Cleric's words without Thinking - if we really reflect on it (and this is where PoF is invaluable), that makes very little sense. Words are products of Thinking and Thinking is essentially shared activity. There are not multiple realms of isolated thoughts for each individual "alter". So you are subconsciously intuiting the deep truth and authenticity of Cleric's words, and since it is subconscious Thinking, you incorrectly attribute it all to your feeling "heart".

Ashvin,

This kind of response makes any dialogue impossible. If you deny or re-interpret my experience, simply because it is different to your own experience, or (even worse) because it doesn't fit into your idea of reality, then there is nothing you can gain from this conversation. We may as well stop here.

Adur,

There must be some confusion here and I should have been more clear in my response ...

The curious pattern continues with this push back from various participants about your 'perceived'—you claim 'mis-perceived'—attitude of putting down or denying the views of others here, as opposed to taking it as being an attempt, however ineffective, at constructive critique. Perhaps Cleric could offer some insight into what's up with that pattern?

[Eugene I]

I think there is confusion. The technical meaning of 'eternity' (that is, as it is used by theologians) is 'timeless' of 'unchanging'. For 'time everlasting', the technical term is 'sempiternity'.

If one defines 'time' as 'awareness of change', then it is not abstract (we experience it). Sempiternity is an abstraction, but eternity is not, since without a stance outside of time, one could not be aware of time (awareness of change).

OK, I agree, but the term "time" is too loaded with different meanings/definitions from physics, peoples' naive ideas of time etc involving more abstractions in addition to just "awareness" of change". So I personally prefer not to use such ambiguous terms as "time" and "eternity", but simply go with "changing" and "unchanging".

What we experience directly is changing and unchanging aspects of the thinking activity, that's all. I don't see them as "polarities" but just as they simply are in the direct experience: as simultaneously existing changeless and changing aspects of consciousness (experiencing-thinking-feeling-willing activity).

They are polarities because they contradict one another, yet are real and inseparable.

ok, true

[Cleric K]

Cleric,

It seems like a door has opened in my mind and I can now understand very clearly everything you are saying.

You are absolutely right. The path I'm following involves a sort of "postponing" of that realization of our fundamental unity with the Universal Creative. There are (at least) two ways to understand this: one is that this may be a path "for lazy people", a path that takes longer but is more easy to follow (than yours), because it requires less effort. The other way of looking at this "postponing" is that we need to first deal with our egoic structures and conditioning, before we venture into the spiritual realm.

I may be worrying about money, say, or obsessing about sex or food. If I understand correctly, the "Thinking path" would involve taking responsibility for those obsessive thoughts and actively work to steer them in a new direction, away from those superficial, "illusory" drives and towards deep spiritual truths. (Please let me know if I'm wrong about this.) The problem with this approach is that it doesn't really address the unconscious egoic structures. I may have total control over my conscious Thinking, but those unconscious structures will still be there. (Again, please tell me if I'm wrong on this!) This is sometimes called "spiritual bypass", and it has become a well-known problem with many spiritual teachers, especially from the East. You may reach a state of enlightenement, and still have unconscious egoic drives (the typical story of the guru having dysfunctional sex with his female students, etc.).

The DA path of inquiry, on the contrary, involves starting from wherever we are. If I'm thinking about money, or sex, I don't try to change those thoughts: I only try to understand what is going on, what those thoughts actually mean. If I do that, the veils of egoic structures will open up one by one. With enough practice, those structures will eventually dissolve. Only then will my individual soul be ready to really embody the unity with the spiritual ground of Universal Consciousness.

Like you say, only the first-person perspective is real. This is actually the DA perspective. Everything in the practice of inquiry is experienced from the first-person perspective. At first, the first-person perspective is (or rather, seems to be) that of the ego. But through the process of inquiry, the ego identity dissolves and eventually the first-person perspective becomes the perspective of the One Consciousness. When that happens, you realize that your first-person perspective was the Universal Creative all along. The egoic identity was only a mental structure limiting and obscuring that perspective.

In my experience, the insights coming from inquiry are never like looking at sunlight warming a bowl of water. In inquiry, you are the bowl of water. And then you realize you are also the Sun that warms it. Everything is experienced directly, in first person. The "I am" is always there.

This kind of inquiry is not merely intellectual: it also involves the heart and the body. It involves the whole soul. Every new insight is experienced as a total transformation of the soul. This involves a transformation of reality itself.

From this perspective, we always are one with the Universal Creative, whether we know it or not. So, from this perspective all paths are fundamentally equivalent. If you take control of your Thinking, it's the Universal Creative doing it. If you inquire into your current experience, whatever it is (obsession with money, say), it's the Universal Creative doing it too.

In the DA, the idea is that if you are worrying about money or sex or whatever right now, there is a fundamental underlying intelligence behind that worry: the intelligence of the One Consciousness, the Universal Creative. No matter what the entry point is (but it has to be your real experience in the present moment), you will ultimately discover the One Consciousness behind it.

I fear all this may sound confusing. The problem is that, like I said, I'm only a student and my understanding of the DA practice of inquiry is limited. So my attempts at describing it may seem (and perhaps are) contradictory.

Anyway. My question is, is there a risk of "spiritual bypass" in the "Thinking path" you practice? How do you deal with the unsconscious conditioning, the egoic structures? I'm genuinely interested in that.

Thank you Adur, for these constructive questions!

Let's begin from the more approachable side. Consider a smoking habit. As long as one simply flows together with that habit, it is as an intrinsic part of their being. If at some point, for health or other reasons, the person decides to quit, we witness interesting phenomena. Suddenly both the physical and the psychic aspects of the habit raise against the person as independent living processes that oppose and effectively try to subdue his free spirit. The key observation here is that the character of the smoking habit becomes conscious for the person only when they confront it. Otherwise they are merrily flowing together on the stream of becoming and reaping whatever the consequences of this might be.

Let's now move towards the realm of thought. If one attempts any exercise for concentration of thinking he'll almost immediately be confronted with almost insurmountable difficulty. We realize that we are not at all the rugged, in-control machos that we imagine ourselves to be most of the time. If we simply delve on our frustration that we can't keep our thinking still for even a few seconds, we miss the most important aspect of it. Similarly to smoking, the thing that frustrates us is the same thing that we're normally flowing along with all the time! It's only when we try to extricate ourselves from this automatic flow, that we become conscious of the currents on which our soul life is normally flowing. Instead of becoming frustrated we can appreciate that we now at least know some things about soul life, about which we were previously oblivious. We can observe what are the common patterns of thoughts, desires, bodily fidgeting (fingers, foot) which keep us from centering. For example, we may notice that our concentration is constantly being broken as we slip into mental argue with a person. We may be quite astounded to realize that we are doing this quite regularly but the fact has never become conscious.

In this sense, once we begin intense spiritual work we need to gradually master all these things. Here's the important thing: this mastering is not purely mental discipline! Fidgeting requires actual mastering of our will. Mental arguing with people is rarely only about the intellectual subject matter itself. There are real and deeper forces in the soul domain of feeling. We may have been hurt by that person, we may subconsciously want to dominate them and so on. It is true that we become conscious of these things through our focused spiritual activity (as they try to oppose it) but the rectification of these issues require the forces of the whole man - willing, feeling, thinking.

There can be no question of bypass here. There's a Japanese proverb - "there are no shortcuts in science". This holds to its fullest extent on a spiritual path. The reason that approaching things directly with our spiritual activity is seen as bypass is because it's usually imagined that in this way one disconnects from the body and soul, and simply rises in the clouds. It must be said right away that this is a real problem but not quite in the way commonly imagined. Our civilization has led us to a point where different human endeavors are quite one-sided. For example, it's almost a stereotypical image that a science professor is excelling in the mental world of his expertise but is otherwise of dorky, socially-awkward character, with feeble physique. This can happen also with people that preoccupy themselves with reading esoteric literature (including anthroposophy) and practically stuff their head with myriad of concepts and ideas but without inner cohesion and practical application. This is a real tendency for those who approach spiritual science in purely intellectual way. Steiner himself has constantly warned about this. So is this a real bypass? Not really. Having a database of dry spiritual concepts which do not connect with reality, by itself makes the person more developed as much as that database would make a hard drive spiritual. We need to be very clear about this.

Anyone who is honestly seeking the inner realities very quickly realizes that one can't make even the tiniest step forward without constant work on the whole human being. This is very obvious if we look at the actual exercises. How can one bypass his inability to concentrate? There're no tricks about this, no clever hacks. It would be like being unable to lift 50kg but somehow bypassing it and lifting directly 100. We can only move forward if we slowly and patiently work on the transformation of the forces that prevent us of taking control of our spiritual activity. The work is twofold. One one hand we focus all our energies on the exercises, on the other, we gain self-knowledge and pinpoint tasks that must be worked upon our character in all of the remaining time. Life itself becomes practical school for us.

The golden rule [for spiritual science] is as follows: For every one step that you take in the pursuit of higher knowledge, take three steps in the perfection of your character.

Knowledge of Higher Worlds and its Attainment

So I hope that we've cleared that Thinking path shouldn't be confused with intellectual-theoretical path. Instead, it is the direct facing with everything that chains the free spirit. It is Thinking path in the sense that we're not blindly following dogmatic rules and rituals but everything must pass through our clear cognition. Yet this is only the beginning. Everything passes through clear cognition but if it doesn't turn into Loving impulse in the Heart and devoted deeds of the Will, we are not yet human in the true sense of the word.

Here a question might be raised: "But Eastern practices lead to the pretty much the same results, even thought they don't focus on spiritual activity but on quiet contemplation and dissociation from the soul content. In this way I'm able to recognize these same deterring factors and become liberated from their influences. Now I can easily quiet the mind and desires, and spend long time in perfect stillness". Up to a point this is true. I myself have gone through yogic practices in the past - both physical and spiritual. (As a personal side note, I don't draw only on anthroposphy. Certainly spiritual science is my main path for the development of cognition but for the practical application of the Sun impulse in life, I have other sources too.) As far as it is all about mastering chaotic thoughts and desires, there are lots of different paths that can lead to that result. But it is precisely if we have attained this level of perfection that the mentioned 'postponing' already becomes an important issue.

Let me put this way. The principle that we must exercise our spiritual activity in order to become conscious of the spiritual environment holds true on all levels. I guess this is pretty understandable from the examples of smoking and concentration, even for people with no experience in spiritual practices. The interesting stuff happens once the quietness and serenity of soul is achieved. It is at this point where one becomes, for example, spiritual teacher like, say, Rupert Spira. One has attained to the grounds of Consciousness and he now can give Light to other souls, so that they can also achieve mastery and then peace and immensity.

At this stage it already makes real difference if one will continue to work with focused spiritual activity because in this case we are really on our way to the higher worlds.

It is not true that once we attain to peace, serenity, Love, joy, we have already done our job. Just as with smoking and concentration, if we continue with concentration of the spirit - the Universal Creative - we soon find out that even in these states of quiet and blissful contemplation, seemingly completely free of egoic elements, we're still flowing along certain, admittedly, higher order currents. But they are still currents. And as any other, we need to differentiate from them in order to become conscious of them. In the sea of serenity we no longer have any means to become conscious of these currents because we have cleared out all sources of noise and distractions. We're completely at one with the blissful flow of Consciousness. And this is precisely the issue. Unless we find a form of even higher order spiritual activity, we can never become conscious that this blissful flow is only one of the many more layers of the Worlds within which we are embedded.

When we continue our active concentration, even when in the midst of stillness and serenity, our discoveries continue. Just as our ordinary concentration becomes, in a sense, an organ for perception for all these things that work against our spiritual intent, so through the sustained concentration of our creative spiritual being we begin to feel that even our tendency to free flow in complete bliss on the sea of serenity, is something that drags us along and as such we're not conscious of it. Gradually, this tendency becomes more and more clearly perceptible for us and rises against us as an actual being. This being has been known in all genuine esoteric schools and is commonly called The Guardian at the Threshold. This is no other but our actual self, within which we have been embedded even when in complete serenity and without perceptible traces of egoic structures.

This is probably the greatest insult for a mystic - to dare and state that at the stage that they value the highest, complete mystical union with the flow of Cosmic Consciousness, they don't really overcome the self - it's simply that all traceable perceptions of it have been completely smoothed out and now the reality of the ego has simply spread out and merged quietly and imperceptibly with the Cosmic background, so to speak. If what we speak here is understood, it will be clear that we have absolutely no means to distinguish this completely laminar and blissful ego from the general environment. The only way to distinguish it is if we come to know ourselves as a spiritual being active at an even higher level of consciousness, against which the chameleon ego becomes once again visible as the Guardian at the Threshold.

Honest thinking can already forebode that this is indeed the case. I often ask people (without really getting an answer) - "If you were really One with All within the serene state where the ego dissolves, how come you know nothing about the perspective of the One? How the world was created? The perspectives of other beings?" Somehow this mystical state is still experienced from a very specific perspective within the One. This leaves the mystic with the only conclusion that there are some hard rules that define this perspective while incarnated but they will hopefully dissolve after death. Well, precisely these hard rules are what the true nature of the Earthly self is and what becomes perceptible to us as the Guardian at the Threshold when we deserve to raise in Spirit above this Earthly cocoon. This transition is no other but the crossing the Threshold of Death, yet without leaving the physical body behind.

All the previous work has only been the preparation for the spiritual scientists. It is after we cross the Threshold that the real work begins. The principle remains the same. We are active Spirit and in relation to that activity we perceive (now according to the higher forms of cognition) the processes and beings in the higher realms. Here I would like to mention that we shouldn't imagine that every step higher is achieved through spiritual activity opposing and becoming conscious of harmful unconscious currents. This is largely the case while we work on our Earthly character, but the higher we go, it would be much more appropriate to compare the differentiation of our spiritual being as a kind of maturing. The young person at some point leaves his parents and becomes conscious of many things (food, shelter) that were provided for him unconsciously, but now enter his field of consciousness because they are his responsibility from now on. Something similar happens when we are engaged in higher development. In other words, higher knowledge comes at a price - we take responsibility and this has karmic effects. The repercussions for our destiny are of one kind if we get drunk now or then. But once we've come to know our Earthly self from a higher perspective and we have seen clearly the kinds of beings and forces that are active in us when we give in to the desire to get drunk, and we still allow ourselves to be united with them, then the repercussions are of a different kind.

Beyond the Threshold we can really follow the curvature of Time between the Alpha and Omega (if you have followed the side discussions here). Just as in our personal investigation we become conscious of layers after layers of our Earthly self, weaved out of instincts, opinions, prejudices, desires, habits, so this process continues but now we become conscious of the workings of karma. What was previously layers of personal psyche, now are layers of our entanglement with other souls - family, friends, enemies - the layers of the social organism, of the nation, of all humanity. Again, if you have followed our talks here, you know that as we raise in this way, these relations also encompass more and more Time. In this way we reach the rhythmic waves of the incarnations, which are embedded within the rhythms of the evolutionary cultural epochs (which are, by the way, related with the precession of the equinox or the so called Platonic year ~26 000 years).There are so many things that can be spoken about here but I wanted just to make a point. Just an indication about the way the Thinking path metamorphoses into higher forms of cognition which put us in relation with corresponding higher worlds.

As before, I'm not writing all this to shaken your trust in your chosen method of work. I'm quite sure you can extract many many more precious jewels from your practices. I hope that the above exposition has shown that it is not about various paths leading to the same results, only differing in the methods they use. If the above is fully internalized we do understand clearly, even with nothing but unprejudiced thinking, that where some teachings stop, others are only beginning.

[AshvinP]

Ashvin,

This kind of response makes any dialogue impossible. If you deny or re-interpret my experience, simply because it is different to your own experience, or (even worse) because it doesn't fit into your idea of reality, then there is nothing you can gain from this conversation. We may as well stop here.

Adur,

There must be some confusion here and I should have been more clear in my response ...

The curious pattern continues with this push back from various participants about your 'perceived'—you claim 'mis-perceived'—attitude of putting down or denying the views of others here, as opposed to taking it as being an attempt, however ineffective, at constructive critique. Perhaps Cleric could offer some insight into what's up with that pattern?

I would say his last post actually did that. One factor here is the tendency to think horizontally, where there are a bunch of paths winding up the same mountain to its peak. I unconsciously do that sometimes as well and it reflects in my comments. Then it sounds like I am saying to someone, "abandon your current philosophical-spiritual path and come over to ours". That's not it at all. Rather, it is as Cleric said - "where some paths are ending, other ones are beginning". And Anthroposophy is not the only path which helps us ascend to even higher peaks, although I imagine it is the most comprehensive and helpful for the 'cognitive element'. A few other factors were already mentioned before - a combination of my conveying spiritual truths with rigid abstract concepts and readers trying to understand what I am writing with rigid abstract concepts. They are inevitably going to grind against each other in a very irritating way. This quote from Schopenhauer is pretty apt here:

“There is no getting away from it, it is the sad fate of truth that it must always become paradoxical in the world. Truth is not able to sit on the throne of error, therefore it sits on the throne of time, and appeals to the guardian angel of time. So great, however, is the spread of that angel's mighty wings that the individual dies within a single beat.”

- Arthur Schopenhauer

We really need to start imagining these spiritual dynamics in a more noble way. I like to think of the early medieval quests, with knights and vassals, princes and princesses, tales of dragons, etc. I was watching the movie Pan's Labyrinth the other day, which was set in the Spanish countryside during WWII, and that also highlights this same fantastical element. When we reach too hard for the spiritual truths with the intellect, either writing about it or reading about it, a lot of that element is lost in the translation. Then it becomes more about intellectual ego defending its territory. In the modern age, we will simply assume those fantastic tales, just like ancient mythology, only reflect a personal vivid imagination and it would be crazy for us to think they reflect anything more spiritually substantial, which is really a great way to assess what kind of progress one is making from mere intellect to more imaginative thinking.

[Soul_of_Shu]

The curious pattern continues with this push back from various participants about your 'perceived'—you claim 'mis-perceived'—attitude of putting down or denying the views of others here, as opposed to taking it as being an attempt, however ineffective, at constructive critique. Perhaps Cleric could offer some insight into what's up with that pattern?

I would say his last post actually did that ...

I may well be way off base with my theory that your lawyerly proclivity and demeanour, the assertive cross-examination tendency in defence of your clients, in this case Cleric, previously Mr. Peterson, to get others to concede that they are at the very least misinformed, if not deliberately toying with the truth, to which they take indignant offence when confronted in that way, has something to do with it. Maybe I watch too many court room dramas I'm just know that dating back to the old MS forum when RHC got ticked off with you, though I can't now recall why, there's been a long series of such battles. However, I can only trust that the intention of all is to act in good faith, and that we can find a way to approach these interactions with that in mind.

[AshvinP]

I would say his last post actually did that ...

I may well be way off base with my theory that your lawyerly proclivity and demeanour, the assertive cross-examination tendency in defence of your clients, in this case Cleric, previously Mr. Peterson, to get others to concede that they are at the very least misinformed, if not deliberately toying with the truth, to which they take indignant offence when confronted in that way, has something to do with it. Maybe I watch too many court room dramas I'm just know that dating back to the old MS forum when RHC got ticked off with you, though I can't now recall why, there's been a long series of such battles. However, I can only trust that the intention of all is to act in good faith, and that we can find a way to approach these interactions with that in mind.

Dana, why can't you just let my not-so-subtle attempts to relate everything back to spiritual science stand as they are

Seriously though, you are of course right. But my approach now is, whenever I look for an "Earthly" explanation for these things, even matters of psychology or social interaction, I try to remind myself the explanation goes deeper. It cannot be found in the physical realm because it is not born of that realm (generally everything outside of questions about basic interactions in the mineral kingdom are not). And if nothing else, that motivates us to keep asking questions about everything we experience, and maybe figure out why our Earthly explanations our correct. Maybe I will someday figure out what in my past lives and in the spiritual forces at work through them made me so stubbornly unwilling to let a point rest until it's settled or the other person gives up : )

[Lou Gold]

Seriously though, you are of course right. But my approach now is, whenever I look for an "Earthly" explanation for these things, even matters of psychology or social interaction, I try to remind myself the explanation goes deeper. It cannot be found in the physical realm because it is not born of that realm (generally everything outside of questions about basic interactions in the mineral kingdom are not). And if nothing else, that motivates us to keep asking questions about everything we experience, and maybe figure out why our Earthly explanations our correct. Maybe I will someday figure out what in my past lives and in the spiritual forces at work through them made me so stubbornly unwilling to let a point rest until it's settled or the other person gives up : )

Ashvin, When I experience something like your bolded statement in myself it's a sign of something unresolved in myself.

[Soul_of_Shu]

Dana, why can't you just let my not-so-subtle attempts to relate everything back to spiritual science stand as they are

Seriously though, you are of course right. But my approach now is, whenever I look for an "Earthly" explanation for these things, even matters of psychology or social interaction, I try to remind myself the explanation goes deeper. It cannot be found in the physical realm because it is not born of that realm (generally everything outside of questions about basic interactions in the mineral kingdom are not). And if nothing else, that motivates us to keep asking questions about everything we experience, and maybe figure out why our Earthly explanations our correct. Maybe I will someday figure out what in my past lives and in the spiritual forces at work through them made me so stubbornly unwilling to let a point rest until it's settled or the other person gives up : )

I appreciate the intention here to shift the focus into the realms of which you so passionately and eloquently speak to in your artful essays, which for me is far more persuasive than the court room antics that often feel counterproductive to that end. But perhaps I'm just an overly sensitive new-agey, artsy-fartsy type

[AshvinP]

Seriously though, you are of course right. But my approach now is, whenever I look for an "Earthly" explanation for these things, even matters of psychology or social interaction, I try to remind myself the explanation goes deeper. It cannot be found in the physical realm because it is not born of that realm (generally everything outside of questions about basic interactions in the mineral kingdom are not). And if nothing else, that motivates us to keep asking questions about everything we experience, and maybe figure out why our Earthly explanations our correct. Maybe I will someday figure out what in my past lives and in the spiritual forces at work through them made me so stubbornly unwilling to let a point rest until it's settled or the other person gives up : )

Ashvin, When I experience something like your bolded statement in myself it's a sign of something unresolved in myself.

Lou, I agree, the "past lives and spiritual forces at work through them" are unresolved. And we only re-solve anything by way of thinking-knowing.

[AshvinP]

Dana, why can't you just let my not-so-subtle attempts to relate everything back to spiritual science stand as they are

Seriously though, you are of course right. But my approach now is, whenever I look for an "Earthly" explanation for these things, even matters of psychology or social interaction, I try to remind myself the explanation goes deeper. It cannot be found in the physical realm because it is not born of that realm (generally everything outside of questions about basic interactions in the mineral kingdom are not). And if nothing else, that motivates us to keep asking questions about everything we experience, and maybe figure out why our Earthly explanations our correct. Maybe I will someday figure out what in my past lives and in the spiritual forces at work through them made me so stubbornly unwilling to let a point rest until it's settled or the other person gives up : )

I appreciate the intention here to shift the focus into the realms of which you so passionately and eloquently speak to in your artful essays, which for me is far more persuasive than the court room antics that often feel counterproductive to that end. But perhaps I'm just an overly sensitive new-agey, artsy-fartsy type

The court room antics only become necessary when someone keeps questioning the proposed arguments without ever actually addressing them. That's when we get into A Few Good Men territory - "you want the Truth?? you can't handle the Truth!". Maybe there's some of that going on in this side discussion of ours as well . I don't have to deal with that in my essays since they are a one-way street, so to speak. Or they are so long and thorough that many do not even want to finish reading them, let alone question the arguments made in them.