Problems with the body being the external image of experiential states

[Soul_of_Shu]

I have tried to get his attention via Twitter - he liked a few of my essays but I have no idea whether he read them. Maybe he did, because I remember he liked ISM Part I on the Gita, but did not like Part II which started very critical of Schopenhauer. I also joined a Q&A once to ask him about Steiner, which led to that massive record-breaking thread of comments, although admittedly most of those were completely useless. But yeah, it would be nice to see him on the forum - maybe you guys can convince him to do another round of Q&A submissions with the readers?

I've suggested to him that the Essentia site should have a comments section, which he seemed open to, but so far it's not considered a priority. I don't feel that just inviting him to offer quickie responses to questions put to him here, before he just as quickly goes away, will suffice to delve into these critiques in any nuanced way. It really needs to be put out there in some fairly high profile way, wherein it's getting some significant attention beyond the 200 or so mostly inactive members of this forum, whereby he feels compelled to engage in a prolonged back and forth in defence of his position, lest he's seen as shying away from the fray.

[Soul_of_Shu]

Those "constructions" belong to 2-D pixels of Flat MAL, and we need to go beyond that to 3-D Deep MAL, and eventually to 4-D Deeper MAL which accounts for Time-Consciousness spectrum. Even BK criticizes this approach of materialists very often - they developed quantitative abstractions for a very specific purpose and then started confusing their own abstractions for the Reality itself. That is exactly what is going on here with Flat MAL, corporeal construction, "dissociation", "alter", etc. They are only useful for the specific purpose of transitioning away from materialism. I am not sure if they are even useful for that anymore, given how confused people seem to be once they get here after that transition.

Clearly you're not referring to the same primal idea constructions I'm referring to, which occur in deepest Mind and have nothing to do with the rather contemporary idea of pixels.

[AshvinP]

Those "constructions" belong to 2-D pixels of Flat MAL, and we need to go beyond that to 3-D Deep MAL, and eventually to 4-D Deeper MAL which accounts for Time-Consciousness spectrum. Even BK criticizes this approach of materialists very often - they developed quantitative abstractions for a very specific purpose and then started confusing their own abstractions for the Reality itself. That is exactly what is going on here with Flat MAL, corporeal construction, "dissociation", "alter", etc. They are only useful for the specific purpose of transitioning away from materialism. I am not sure if they are even useful for that anymore, given how confused people seem to be once they get here after that transition.

Clearly you're not referring to the same primal idea constructions I'm referring to, which occur in deepest Mind and have nothing to do with the rather contemporary idea of pixels.

I'm referring to the contours of our physical body and its organs, processes, etc. I thought that was what you were referring to also.

[Soul_of_Shu]

I'm referring to the contours of our physical body and its organs, processes, etc. I thought that was what you were referring to also.

Sure ... so-called 'corporeal construct' would be short-hand for all that, which is all phenomenal representation of deep primal idea construction in uncaused, irreducible Mind. I must confess that all the flat M@L, 3D M@L, 4D M@L notions seem equally abstract to this mind.

[AshvinP]

I'm referring to the contours of our physical body and its organs, processes, etc. I thought that was what you were referring to also.

Sure ... so-called 'corporeal construct' would be short-hand for all that, which is all phenomenal representation of deep primal idea construction in uncaused, irreducible Mind. I must confess that all the flat M@L, 3D M@L, 4D M@L notions seem equally abstract to this mind.

The main point is that the intellectual phenomenal representation is not a complete image of whatever noumenal relations underlie it, not even close, so why should scientific conclusions which are only derived from studying this partial representation, by way of mechanistic abstractions ('measurement' tools), be given any weight when discussing noumenal essence?

[Soul_of_Shu]

The main point is that the intellectual phenomenal representation is not a complete image of whatever noumenal relations underlie it, not even close, so why should scientific conclusions which are only derived from studying this partial representation, by way of mechanistic abstractions ('measurement' tools), be given any weight when discussing noumenal essence?

BK, enter stage right ... BK!? BK!!? BEEEKAAAY!!! ... Damn him, probably off doing yet another interview somewhere, soon to be dressed in dark PC Jenny (ha, ha) jacket and dress shirt, like Harris, Peterson, and that lot, publicity hound that he is

[AshvinP]

The main point is that the intellectual phenomenal representation is not a complete image of whatever noumenal relations underlie it, not even close, so why should scientific conclusions which are only derived from studying this partial representation, by way of mechanistic abstractions ('measurement' tools), be given any weight when discussing noumenal essence?

BK, enter stage right ... BK!? BK!!? BEEEKAAAY!!! ... Damn him, probably off doing yet another interview somewhere, soon to be dressed in dark PC Jenny (ha, ha) jacket and dress shirt, like Harris, Peterson, and that lot, publicity hound that he is

[Shajan624]

I'm referring to the contours of our physical body and its organs, processes, etc. I thought that was what you were referring to also.

Sure ... so-called 'corporeal construct' would be short-hand for all that, which is all phenomenal representation of deep primal idea construction in uncaused, irreducible Mind. I must confess that all the flat M@L, 3D M@L, 4D M@L notions seem equally abstract to this mind.

The main point is that the intellectual phenomenal representation is not a complete image of whatever noumenal relations underlie it, not even close, so why should scientific conclusions which are only derived from studying this partial representation, by way of mechanistic abstractions ('measurement' tools), be given any weight when discussing noumenal essence?

Ashvin:

This is a very important question.

I would say noumenal essence can only be discussed using metaphors/poetry. Unfortunately most people, especially in science, don’t consider poetry as an effective way to describe serious matters. Hence the never ending attempts to capture the ungraspable in more refined mechanistic abstractions.

IMO, to reclaim its crown as the queen of all sciences philosophy should find a way to establish the ‘ungraspability’ of noumenal starting from mechanistic abstractions of science.

[pandaproducts]

Kastrup says that we only experience what it is like to be the nervous system. That seems to be true upon introspection. So removal of a leg won't change your inner life (apart from how it impacts the nervous system).

[AshvinP]

Sure ... so-called 'corporeal construct' would be short-hand for all that, which is all phenomenal representation of deep primal idea construction in uncaused, irreducible Mind. I must confess that all the flat M@L, 3D M@L, 4D M@L notions seem equally abstract to this mind.

The main point is that the intellectual phenomenal representation is not a complete image of whatever noumenal relations underlie it, not even close, so why should scientific conclusions which are only derived from studying this partial representation, by way of mechanistic abstractions ('measurement' tools), be given any weight when discussing noumenal essence?

Ashvin:

This is a very important question.

I would say noumenal essence can only be discussed using metaphors/poetry. Unfortunately most people, especially in science, don’t consider poetry as an effective way to describe serious matters. Hence the never ending attempts to capture the ungraspable in more refined mechanistic abstractions.

IMO, to reclaim its crown as the queen of all sciences philosophy should find a way to establish the ‘ungraspability’ of noumenal starting from mechanistic abstractions of science.

Shajan,

If we remain with abstract intellect, then yes I agree noumenal essence is best approached with poetry, myth, music, etc. In fact music is a really good art to contemplate as one listens, relating the notes, rhythms, melodies, and harmonies to the very qualitative structure of the Macrocosm, as its living activities harmonize as individual members of an orchestral symphony.

But we don't need to remain with intellect. It was Nietzche who said psychology should retake its crown as queen of the sciences, because it deals with matters of the soul (psyche). Jung of course developed this empirical study of the soul much further and developed abstract psychic models to point away from themselves towards a soul Reality. Symbols of that sort must point away from themselves towards the living dynamics of the soul and spirit for them to be useful for us now. We can then develop our imaginative thinking of the sort Cleric illustrates here often. Only then can we engage a proper science, rather than simply adopting physical science conclusions or giving up on science altogether.