ParadoxZone wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 9:38 pm
Shu,
Sure, I get the "what's up with that" reference, as I got the previous reference when I stretched your patience. Enough said.
What was wrong with my previous post? Did you think, as Ashvin seems to, that it was "about" politics? I thought it was the opposite. My bad. If you thought it was off topic, sure, but I didn't start that. I read this topic because of Lou's OP, on which I had some thoughts. The thread was derailed long before my arrival on the scene of the crime.
My post was about practical v spiritual, and whether they can be divorced. FWIW, my view is to progress the spiritual, one must first stay alive and do so in a way that gives sustenance to spiritual development (or progression, to use Ashvin's terminology). I don't think that's a particularly revolutionary take (or even a contentious one, but on this particular forum, it can be hard for me to tell).
Joking or not - it was Ashvin's response that immediately turned to the practical. I (or you) could well ask, what's up with that?
We (the human race) are often accused of hypocrisy for, seemingly, living in the modern age, taking its benefits for granted, and forgetting about spirituality. (Again, just now, on this thread.) A point I was making, clumsily (maybe?), is that most haven't forgotten at all about spirituality (or whatever term other people might use, in the way they deem appropriate.
There is an irony here - we are criticised for living in this technological age and not being grateful for it, yet we are to eschew and denigrate politics and politicians. Politics and politicians also are responsible for the modern age. I'm grateful for all of it.
I remember Ashvin's foray into politics on these pages. It lasted into early January 2021, if I remember correctly. I didn't contribute then, appreciating the pointlessness at that stage - even though some of the claims made were downright factually incorrect, and demonstrably so.
Bernardo has written an essay on his view of what needs to be done to combat climate change. I thought it was a topic worth consideration here and how a solution might suit those of various political persuasions. I considered that worth mentioning - something "practical", to keep some sustenance going for further evolution in this earthly plane. As my late mum used to say, "the Lord helps those who help themselves".
If you would wish me not to comment, please say so. I feel invested in keeping these pages going. If you would like to be more specific, please do. Or not.
Best wishes.
PZ,
Since you said these things do not effect you personally, I am going to be very direct here and hope that is still true.
Caveat: everything I say below has also applied and, in some cases, does still apply to my own abstract intellect and modern prejudices. I am only able to get clarity on these issues when constantly resisting that left-brain desire to take possession of my entire Mind, and it takes a lot of consistent effort, especially when we are not accustomed to it at first.
That being said, I also think the modern age has developed an extremely unhealthy infantilism, where everyone needs to be given a sweet treat for every vegetable they eat. So I am not going to keep making these caveats in my comments. We need to move from spiritual infancy and adolescence into adulthood. Everyone needs to take responsibility for making their own sustained effort in this direction.
Your post above is a great example of the modern prejudices which are unconsciously held (all the below points are overlapping and interpenetrating).
1)
Fragmenting and isolating tendency: you claim the "spiritual" is highest priority for you and deeply woven into the practical, but that does not reflect in any of your assertions here. You are still in that "yet, still... I want to talk about politics and global warming, BLM, etc." mindset. You look at the world and say "here is issue X, here is issue Y, issue Z, and then there is spirituality over there". Eventually you conclude, "if we don't address global warming with great political action, there won't be anyone left to grow spiritually, because we will all be dead". But that makes no sense from a truly spiritual perspective, and I am sure you can imagine why (if not, I can explain).
This fragmenting tendency is also why you don't see the connection between Lou's original post and what I have been discussing with Justin, and what you and I are discussing now. It all centers around elevating the abstract intellect far above the right-brain holistic consciousness, which then ignores the truly spiritual within each individual - our own essential "I" and Thinking activity. That is how people can assert, "
the body keeps score, and the mind just obscures the Truth" (person from Lou's post), or "
the collective practices are what change the collective representations of the world, and Imagination only gives you personal ecstatic pleasure for a little while" (Justin), or "
most people have not at all forgotten about spirituality" (you). Those are all worrying sentiments, but yours probably takes the cake.
I don't even know where to begin addressing that assertion. Maybe with a question - you see no connection between the 20th century totalitarian regimes, the nihilism i.e. "meaning crisis", the environmental disasters, the sociopolitical schisms, etc. and the "death of God" and obvious decline in spirituality since the 19th century?
2)
De-spiritualization: If you think the people in the 21st century have not forgotten about spirituality, then clearly your standards for "spirituality" are extremely low. Somehow you felt your previous post was the "opposite of politics" when it was almost 100% about political issues. I suspect these two things are related. Basically your "spirituality" has turned into politics, which is common to a lot of people these days. The modern age convinces us to interpret all spiritual truths in terms of the sense-world, which then leads to things like "liberation theology" or other such de-spiritualized nonsense.
3)
Lack of serious effort: PZ said: "
I've read Cleric's post, quoted above by you, and I find myself nodding at much of it. The rest, I need to work on by re-reading some more of his stuff. I am giving it a chance."
Honestly, I hope you still do after reading this comment, but if I thought there was any significant chance of that, I would not have posted this comment. Either you did not read it, you did not understand it, and/or you forgot the content you were "nodding" to immediately after reading it. That much is evident from your subsequent posts here. I see this happen often - people ask questions, ask for examples and such, we provide them over and over again, people say "I read all of it and agree" or "yeah that makes a lot of sense" or something similar, and then immediately take up a position diametrically opposed to the content provided. Almost every single post Cleric writes also contains concrete practical advice/exercises to begin on a path towards higher cognition but I doubt any of them are even given a chance.
4)
Egoism of abstract intellect: this one may be the most important and pronounced right now. Everyone wants to have an opinion about everything, and they feel irritated and 'marginalized' when another person demonstrates a more considered and/or more wise view of the topic. Again Cleric's posts are revealing here - no reasonable person can question he is operating with a level of insight into these spiritual matters that no one else here has. If they can question that, then they should speak up, because I have not seen a single person offer a substantive critique of his arguments or his method of reasoning through them. Yet they just don't like it, because it threatens the very thing they want to cling onto the most in this world - their own abstract intellect. They want to ask the deepest possible questions and then use the weakest possible organ of perception-thought that they have to go around in circles on those questions, never making any progress, but always having a sense of intellectual importance.
I am sure some if not most people will read that and think it is even more true of me - that I am "projecting" it, because I am writing essays with a bunch of intellectual concepts and telling people they "should" do this or "must" do that. I believe it was you who even said you stopped reading them because of those words. That's fine, because I am confident in the overall purpose of those essays, which is point myself and others
away from modern habits of mind - from tyranny of the abstract intellect - and take the most basic steps towards a more
holistic understanding of the spiritual activity (Thinking) we are always engaged in. I am under no illusion that people will give them deep consideration here. It's actually my own way of staying disciplined more than anything else, forcing myself to continue asking questions and putting effort into discovering some portion of the answers, perhaps stimulating my Imagination in the process. I know that there are millions of people more knowledgeable and more wise about these matters than myself. And I really hope that, as I encounter more of these wise masters, if I am fortunate enough to do so, my ego will not demand to remain in the driver's seat so as to shut out their Wisdom.
I am sure I can find some legal work to do there."
