What causes bad trips?

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Cleric K
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Re: What causes bad trips?

Post by Cleric K »

Eugene I wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:22 pm
Cleric K wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:44 pm OK Adur. As I wrote in this post, as long as we desire to keep the self-enclosed intellect and the inexplicable nothingness irreconcilably separate, we can build whatever fantastic private group interests we want. I often ask - if you were really in the bosom of the eternal, the source of all, how come you saw nothing of the creation of the Cosmos? Why didn't you see the fallen gods of the Zodiac, immersed in fear of losing their consciousness? You should have - after all they exist between the Absolute Nothingness and your ordinary consciousness so you most certainly must have passed through them if you were in the Source itself.
No we should not, it's a wrong argument. Our individual conscious activity always has direct access to the transcendent formless No-thing-ness aspect of Consciousness, but that access does not open to us the access to the wholeness of the creation, they have nothing to do with each other. Each of us is a piece of Divine immanent conscious activity, as well a slice of the Divine transcendent nature of No-thing-ness. But a piece and a slice is never the whole, whether transcendent or immanent. Now you may argue: and why would not we integrate back to the wholeness and undifferentiated unity? We may, but there was a purpose why the Divine divided itself into the multitude of pieces of individual minds, it was not a mistake or a "fall", it was intentional, because the Divine chose Life, and the division was the only way for the Life to unfold. The Divine allows for freedom and would probably not mind for you to integrate and dissolve back into itself if you choose to do so, but you would be doing it against the Divine original intention.

But interestingly enough, I asked you a similar question many times: if you have an access to the higher-cognition levels and can see the structures responsible for the perceptions in our human form, how come you can not explain why these perceptions always precisely follow Schrodinger equation? Which Seraphim in the higher realms is responsible for making sure all quadrillions of our human perceptions always obey the Schrodinger equation, and how exactly he does that?
Yes, I'm perfectly aware of this position. It's the simplistic two-tier Flat MAL. The atomic egos bubble up in the MAL soup leading to a dual existence - self-enclosed bubble intellect vs. the MAL soup of inexplicable potential. And it would be perfectly fine if people simply admit that this view gives them comfort and peace of mind. I wouldn't be wasting mine and everyone else's time writing here. The simple fact of experience is that there's whole Cosmic gradient of cognizing Spirit between the above two poles of existence. To this people respond "No way, I drank a whole case of beer and passed out into absolute nothingness - there's absolutely nothing on the way between my ego and the void/plenum." There's no need to go to such excesses for one to know if the gradient exists or not. Like stated numerous times - it is at a thought's distance. Just like in geometry, it takes only an infinitesimal step in a direction perpendicular to the flat surface, in order to know that a depth axis exists. Every response here simply confirms that there's no interest whatsoever to investigate the hidden depth forces that shape what and how we think, what we like and dislike, to which tradition we're drawn and so on, not to mention forces that are responsible for the outer world. As I've said before, I'm also learning a lot here, although probably not in quite the same way as others. My own topic of investigation is to learn more about to what extent the overall situation on Earth is because of lack of love and knowledge and to what extent this lack is actually fully desired.

As a matter of fact, for few weeks now I'm working on a Schrodinger essay. Because of lack of time on one hand and too little motivation on the other, it's going somewhat slowly. The lack of motivation is not because I'm not excited by the topic but because I already know what the comments will be. As said, if one can't make the thinking activity an object of investigation, in the way the scientists investigate the natural world, everything will go through one ear and exit the other. No one internalizes the simple hand analogy, what's left for the much more complicated topics. The simple analogies are simply dismissed because they are so simple that even arguing against them will force one to think about them and this comes with the inherent danger that they might be accidently understood, which in itself would lead to uncomfortable situation. The intellectual ego is much more carefree when it believes that certain door is just a matter of opinion, personal preference. It exists only for those who believe it to exists - in other words, there are "completely different spiritual universes", as Adur suggests. On the other hand, if one accidently understands some of these analogies, then the door will become much more real and it will require much stronger devotion of the ego to support the current choice. For example, today people merrily have a stake, a burger, a sausage. There's something that is out of consciousness. What if for every steak we eat we need to personally slit the throat of the animal? I know that there are plenty of people who wouldn't hesitate but there are also (for humanity's sake, I hope they are the majority) who would much rather eat something else (and it's not like there's shortage of alternatives). So 'out of sight, out of mind' is a great counselor of conscience. In a similar sense, it we are constantly aware that there's a threshold which we simply avoid, it becomes much more inconvenient because it is now our responsibility to decide whether we approach it or not. We can't wash our hands and say "But I didn't know that such a threshold exists".

So that's why the simple truths are simply circumvented. They are so simple that if one accidently thinks about them they might get dangerously real. On the other hand, with something like a Schrodinger essay, which by necessity will have to cover very diverse realms, there will be so many hooks at which the intellect can attach its tentacles, that the conversation will inevitably go far in the periphery. Nevertheless, I promise that I'll finish the essay for the sake of the few awake souls here who have genuine interest in the depths of reality, and not simply in endless dribbling with intellectual candies in a flat cosmic consciousness.
Ben Iscatus
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Re: What causes bad trips?

Post by Ben Iscatus »

Our individual conscious activity always has direct access to the transcendent formless No-thing-ness aspect of Consciousness, but that access does not open to us the access to the wholeness of the creation, they have nothing to do with each other.
True wisdom, Eugene!
When the neighbour's dog barks, I try to focus on the nothingness between barks;
When the abscess throbs, I try to focus on the nothingness between throbs;
therein lies my comfort.
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Eugene I
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Re: What causes bad trips?

Post by Eugene I »

Cleric K wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:08 am Yes, I'm perfectly aware of this position. It's the simplistic two-tier Flat MAL. The atomic egos bubble up in the MAL soup leading to a dual existence - self-enclosed bubble intellect vs. the MAL soup of inexplicable potential. And it would be perfectly fine if people simply admit that this view gives them comfort and peace of mind. I wouldn't be wasting mine and everyone else's time writing here. The simple fact of experience is that there's whole Cosmic gradient of cognizing Spirit between the above two poles of existence. To this people respond "No way, I drank a whole case of beer and passed out into absolute nothingness - there's absolutely nothing on the way between my ego and the void/plenum." There's no need to go to such excesses for one to know if the gradient exists or not. Like stated numerous times - it is at a thought's distance. Just like in geometry, it takes only an infinitesimal step in a direction perpendicular to the flat surface, in order to know that a depth axis exists. Every response here simply confirms that there's no interest whatsoever to investigate the hidden depth forces that shape what and how we think, what we like and dislike, to which tradition we're drawn and so on, not to mention forces that are responsible for the outer world. As I've said before, I'm also learning a lot here, although probably not in quite the same way as others. My own topic of investigation is to learn more about to what extent the overall situation on Earth is because of lack of love and knowledge and to what extent this lack is actually fully desired.
I do not deny the hierarchy of beings and do not promote the flat model. On the other hand, you are suggesting a vertically linear development model, and I'm saying that it is more complicated than just linear. Paradoxically, as many NDE accounts suggest, our developmental paths are not linear and involve multiple incarnations from higher levels into lower level forms and lower cognition levels for purpose. It's like if you are sent from your home in Europe to Africa for a special mission, but when you get there, life there feels to you so harsh and adverse that you become home-sick, abandon your mission and start calling home for hours every day. It is understandable, life is a challenge in Africa and on Earth, nobody will blame you for that, but this is not what you subscribed to and was supposed to do there. We are all Light Beings of higher cognition incarnated into low-level live forms on purpose with our direct communication with the higher levels temporarily disconnected, but we are all little drops of the Divine and always retain the connection to the Divine highs and depths within our soul on the spiritual level (but not on the astral perceptual level, we are cut out from the astral on purpose). Our challenge is to do our work here on Earth struggling with the adversities of our human egos (yes, it was also created for a purpose) while keeping the spiritual connection and aligning our actions with the Divine. So, we should be mature men, take the challenge of the Earth life and not try to escape back home while we are on the mission here. There are many ways to courageously deal with our egos (spiritual practices, psychotherapy etc) rather then denying the Earth life with its egos and escaping from it into astral realms. I perfectly understand your position because I also used to be a religious escapist and Earth-life denialist for a long time, but eventually I grew out from it.
but of course I may be wrong
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Soul_of_Shu
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Re: What causes bad trips?

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

Eugene I wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:04 pmI do not deny the hierarchy of beings and do not promote the flat model. But paradoxically, as many NDE accounts suggest, our paths are not linear and involve multiple incarnations from higher levels into lower level forms and cognition levels for purpose. It's like if you are sent from your home in Europe to Africa for a special mission, but when you get there, life there feels to you so harsh and adverse that you become home-sick, abandon your mission and start calling home for hours every day. It is understandable, life is a challenge in Africa and on Earth, nobody will blame you for that, but this is not what you subscribed to and was supposed to do there. We are all Light Beings of higher cognition incarnated into low-level live forms on purpose with our direct communication with the higher levels temporarily disconnected, but we are all little drops of the Divine and always retain the connection to the Divine highs and depths within our soul on the spiritual level (but not on the astral perceptual level, we are cut out from the astral on purpose). Our challenge is to do our work here on Earth struggling with the adversities of our human egos (yes, it was also created for a purpose) while keeping the spiritual connection and aligning our actions with the Divine. So, we should be mature men, take the challenge of the Earth life and not try to escape back home while we are on the mission here. There are many ways to courageously deal with our egos (spiritual practices, psychotherapy etc) rather then denying the Earth life with its egos and escaping from it into astral realms. I perfectly understand your position because I also used to be a religious escapist and Earth-life denialist for a long time, but eventually I grew out from it.
It is an enigma how we can take away such very different conclusions from reading the same commentary that Ashvin and Cleric are offering. When I view it from a more Gebser-like, ever-present origin, perspective, I find no wishful thinking about escaping the corporeal realm, but rather it's about mindfully, ideationally, participating in its ever-evolving process, in order to facilitate its transfiguration, here and now, through fine-tuning, so to speak, our own conscious activity, bringing it into alignment with transcorporeal factors that impact upon the corporeal evolution. As such, We co-evolve at all levels. So what's to escape, if it's all a co-endeavour? The Bodhisattva surely knows this, and participates accordingly, here and now within the samsara world, while not of it, instead of hiding out in some exclusive state.
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
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Eugene I
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Re: What causes bad trips?

Post by Eugene I »

Soul_of_Shu wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:36 pm It is an enigma how we can take away such very different conclusions from reading the same commentary that Ashvin and Cleric are offering. When I view it from a more Gebser-like, ever-present origin, perspective, I find no wishful thinking about escaping the corporeal realm, but rather it's about mindfully, ideationally, participating in its ever-evolving process, in order to facilitate its transfiguration, here and now, through fine-tuning, so to speak, our own conscious activity, bringing it into alignment with transcorporeal factors that impact upon the corporeal evolution. As such, We co-evolve at all levels. So what's to escape, if it's all a co-endeavour? The Bodhisattva surely knows this, and participates accordingly, here and now within the samsara world, while not of it, instead of hiding out in some exclusive state.
Sure, that sounds about right to me. For some reason the way you present it, concisely and clearly, makes perfect sense to me, but the way Cleric and Ashvin present it just doesn't.
Last edited by Eugene I on Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
but of course I may be wrong
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Soul_of_Shu
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Re: What causes bad trips?

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

Eugene I wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:48 pm
Soul_of_Shu wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:36 pm It is an enigma how we can take away such very different conclusions from reading the same commentary that Ashvin and Cleric are offering. When I view it from a more Gebser-like, ever-present origin, perspective, I find no wishful thinking about escaping the corporeal realm, but rather it's about mindfully, ideationally, participating in its ever-evolving process, in order to facilitate its transfiguration, here and now, through fine-tuning, so to speak, our own conscious activity, bringing it into alignment with transcorporeal factors that impact upon the corporeal evolution. As such, We co-evolve at all levels. So what's to escape, if it's all a co-endeavour? The Bodhisattva surely knows this, and participates accordingly, here and now within the samsara world, while not of it, instead of hiding out in some exclusive state.
Sure, that sounds about right to me. For some reason the way you present it, concisely and clearly, makes sense to me, but the way Cleric and Ashvin present it just doesn't.
Like I said, that disconnect is an enigma to this mind. I can only surmise that it's due to viewing through different karmic lenses.
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
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Soul_of_Shu
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Re: What causes bad trips?

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

Ben Iscatus wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:44 pm Although I used to dislike the idea of Nothingness as the Ground, I now find myself increasingly drawn to it. So I appreciate what Adur and Eugene say above.
In that regard, I found this insight from Thich Nhat Hahn on how emptiness is not nothingness to be helpful, and why I prefer to go with emptifullness ...

Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
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Eugene I
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Re: What causes bad trips?

Post by Eugene I »

Soul_of_Shu wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:39 pm In that regard, I found this insight from Thich Nhat Hahn on how emptiness is not nothingness to be helpful, and why I prefer to go with emptifullness ...
I agree, nothingness is no-thing-ness, it's a fullness of presence without "things" (objects).
but of course I may be wrong
Ben Iscatus
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Re: What causes bad trips?

Post by Ben Iscatus »

But there is nothingness aspect and a fullness aspect, there is a cessation and a movement which you said "have nothing to do with each other". If the fullness aspect involves A************ or such as Wilber's Integral Theory, then I identify with the nothingness aspect :)
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Soul_of_Shu
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Re: What causes bad trips?

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

Ben Iscatus wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:31 pm But there is nothingness aspect and a fullness aspect, there is a cessation and a movement which you said "have nothing to do with each other". If the fullness aspect involves A************ or such as Wilber's Integral Theory, then I identify with the nothingness aspect :)
In this experience, I've found any exclusive identification with any seemingly segregated aspect to be problematic. It is such fixated identification/attachment as one or the other, formlessness or form, that perpetuates the apparency of their segregation. Paraphrasing a Bodhisattva: Before any such exclusive identification—e.g. Abraham— I am.
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
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