What causes bad trips?

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AshvinP
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Re: What causes bad trips?

Post by AshvinP »

Ben Iscatus wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:09 pm Surely the absence of awareness is the easiest thing (sic) in the world to understand. It's falling asleep. But sleep is not death - there are still things (sic) going on and consciousness still exists. When we awaken from sleep, we are aware of duration, even if we forget all our dreams. Just so in the Cosmic Mind - as below, so above. I reckon everyone likes a nice kip, even MAL.

Exactly. When we awaken from dreaming sleep, we do not say, "I can't remember the details, so I must not have even experienced anything". Rather we will say (or should say), "I have not cultivated my mind enough to remember more experiences of my dream upon waking". We may also know that, with gradual training, we can lucid dream or dream in full consciousness with the ego-"I" intact, so as to be practically dreaming while awake. The same holds for dreamless sleep. These states are not other than those entered by the mystic or user of psychedlics and the same logic applies there.
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Soul_of_Shu
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Re: What causes bad trips?

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

Ben Iscatus wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:09 pm Surely the absence of awareness is the easiest thing (sic) in the world to understand. It's falling asleep. But sleep is not death - there are still things (sic) going on and consciousness still exists. When we awaken from sleep, we are aware of duration, even if we forget all our dreams. Just so in the Cosmic Mind - as below, so above. I reckon everyone likes a nice kip, even MAL.
For this psyche the experience of sleep is nonstop dreamtime, although most if it fades quite quickly upon refocusing in the consensus construct, and no doubt there has to have been deep dreamless sleep as well, between some dream and another. But in the absence of even the dream of time, how long does no-time last?
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
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Lou Gold
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Re: What causes bad trips?

Post by Lou Gold »

Soul_of_Shu wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:54 pm
Ben Iscatus wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:09 pm Surely the absence of awareness is the easiest thing (sic) in the world to understand. It's falling asleep. But sleep is not death - there are still things (sic) going on and consciousness still exists. When we awaken from sleep, we are aware of duration, even if we forget all our dreams. Just so in the Cosmic Mind - as below, so above. I reckon everyone likes a nice kip, even MAL.
For this psyche the experience of sleep is nonstop dreamtime, although most if it fades quite quickly upon refocusing in the consensus construct, and no doubt there has to have been deep dreamless sleep as well, between some dream and another. But in the absence of even the dream of time, how long does no-time last?
Gosh, please pardon my naive simplicity as a non-philosopher.

"But in the absence of even the dream of time, how long does no-time last?"

It exists timelessly or eternally. Why not just accept the words according to their quite literal meaning and resist moving on with the endless parade of logical word-based abstractions, paradoxes, etc? Does Analytic Idealism compel it? Is this a possible weakness in the model? I dunno. I'm not a metaphysician. All I can say is that I have experienced the "luminous darkness" and now, 20+ years later, it continues to unpack into my here-and-now existence in life-altering ways. All I can say is, "I'm grateful. Forever and forever. Amen."
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Soul_of_Shu
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Re: What causes bad trips?

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

Lou Gold wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:03 pm Gosh, please pardon my naive simplicity as a non-philosopher.

"But in the absence of even the dream of time, how long does no-time last?"

It exists timelessly or eternally. Why not just accept the words according to their quite literal meaning and resist moving on with the endless parade of logical word-based abstractions, paradoxes, etc? Does Analytic Idealism compel it? Is this a possible weakness in the model? I dunno. I'm not a metaphysician. All I can say is that I have experienced the "luminous darkness" and now, 20+ years later, it continues to unpack into my existence in life-altering ways. All I can say is, "I'm grateful. Forever and forever. Amen."
It was just an inquiry Lou, to which you provided one answer. I was just referring to deep dreamless sleep, in this experience, not being experienced as having some duration in time between one dream and another, since, being dreamless, it is absent even the dream of time, notwithstanding that in retrospect one can project some notion of duration of time onto it. Or some lingering sense of time may remain as a trace from the dreamtime forgotten well before returning to the waking construct. I'm always astonished when some say that they don't ever dream, and suspect that it is more likely the case that their dreams, for whatever unknown reason, don't survive the transition back into the waking state. Much of my dreaming does initially survive, but fades quite quickly unless perhaps I were to record the dreams immediately. But I don't usually attempt that, as much of it does not translate easily into word-bound expression, never mind I'd be recording the equivalent of a short novel every morning.
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
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Lou Gold
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Re: What causes bad trips?

Post by Lou Gold »

Lots of interesting tidbits here from one of the true elders of psychedelics and integrative medicine >>>

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Lou Gold
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Re: What causes bad trips?

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Soul_of_Shu wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:41 pm
Lou Gold wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:03 pm Gosh, please pardon my naive simplicity as a non-philosopher.

"But in the absence of even the dream of time, how long does no-time last?"

It exists timelessly or eternally. Why not just accept the words according to their quite literal meaning and resist moving on with the endless parade of logical word-based abstractions, paradoxes, etc? Does Analytic Idealism compel it? Is this a possible weakness in the model? I dunno. I'm not a metaphysician. All I can say is that I have experienced the "luminous darkness" and now, 20+ years later, it continues to unpack into my existence in life-altering ways. All I can say is, "I'm grateful. Forever and forever. Amen."
It was just an inquiry Lou, to which you provided one answer. I was just referring to deep dreamless sleep, in this experience, not being experienced as having some duration in time between one dream and another, since, being dreamless, it is absent even the dream of time, notwithstanding that in retrospect one can project some notion of duration of time onto it. Or some lingering sense of time may remain as a trace from the dreamtime forgotten well before returning to the waking construct. I'm always astonished when some say that they don't ever dream, and suspect that it is more likely the case that their dreams, for whatever unknown reason, don't survive the transition back into the waking state. Much of my dreaming does initially survive, but fades quite quickly unless perhaps I were to record the dreams immediately. But I don't usually attempt that, as much of it does not translate easily into word-bound expression, never mind I'd be recording the equivalent of a short novel every morning.
I can relate Dana. I'm always intrigued when Ramana Maharshi says that 'enlightenment' feels like being wide awake in deep dreamless sleep. I make no claims toward this state personally but speculatively I consider that it might be "BE HERE NOW" as when Ramana says, "I see God in a tree because I see the tree as a tree."

Personally, I dream rarely and most dreams vanish quickly. Among the few remembered dreams there are two kinds: 1) those with minor teachings (like seeing the solution for a problem), which seem to fall away as fast as I integrate or manifest the solution in my life and 2) an extremely rare Revelation that seems to continue to 'unpack' into my process forever and ever.
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Adur Alkain
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Re: What causes bad trips?

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Cleric K wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:55 pm
Adur,

my interests were truly sparked by cannabis but I have experiences with psilocybin too. I grew both cannabis and mushrooms back then.

Gradually I began to feel certain inner division. It's more than clear that any substance is a physical substance and as such affects primarily the physical body. Everything else is a spiritual reaction to this. So there were two beings in me - one was perfectly aware that my spiritual core is the actual Cosmic essence of reality and the bodily sheaths are only like filtering and mirroring systems that reduce the infinite potential into limited time-flow perspective which experiences itself in relation to all the other potential. The other being was eager to have 'experiences' and would agitate the bodily sheaths through a substance in order that something higher may refract through. The only reasonable thing to do was to continue on the slow but certain path where the bodily sheaths themselves are transformed through my own spiritual activity.

Since the time I began writing in this forum I had to address more and more topics dealing with psychedelics. Through the years my previous psychedelic experiences had become completely transparent from the perspective of higher cognition. Yet I was owing it to the scientific side of me to verify this, even though I already knew what the result would be. So I grew mushrooms again and did experiments (the most recent only few weeks ago). Everything was confirmed. So a bit of warning for those who embark on the path of higher cognition: If you enjoy going on rollercoaster rides, this no longer happens. These rides happen only because the sensory self is ejected into completely unknown territory and is being tossed around. Through spiritual development this same territory is gradually traversed through the unsuspected forces concealed behind our thinking activity. In meditation we can freely move along the gradient of the gates. Five grams dried don't really do anything except pushing us much more towards the astral body, so we are functional in the astral body and operate in the physical, although there's much more time-distance between them. It is as if we have to stretch across time-thickness from the Imaginative consciousness towards the physical body.

These are things that we naturally do in higher development but the process is entirely under our control. It's like breathing, we can breath in and out of the sensory organs. The important thing is that in an instant we can attach firmly to the senses and intellectual thinking and be fully 'normal' in our daily life. This is practically one of the more important differences with psychedelics. With the latter we are not free. We're being pushed towards the Imaginative realm and we can't reach for the sensory organs as tightly as we could otherwise. This is the reason for the time-distance mentioned. We can use our intellect, we can use our body but from a greater distance, so to speak. We can achieve that distance through transfiguring our spiritual activity too, but we also have the ability to squash the distance on demand.

Btw I fully agree with your characterization of cannabis. It really has a much more somatic feel, which causes what I call disproportionate thoughts. It's very common that some idea fills our consciousness accompanied with strong eureka emotion as if we have found the solution to all riddles in the universe - only to find out later how trivial or simply wrong that idea really was. I can confirm that these effects are still somewhat present even when we have gone through higher development. From that point of view cannabis has more intoxicating effect. In contrast, with psilocybin we are completely sober (except for the time-distance between our Imaginative standpoint and the physical organs, which makes it more challenging to operate physically as if nothing is happening).

I say the above things not to give the impression that higher development makes us immune to substances. Not at all. We're fully dependent on our physical and etheric body for our conscious experience on Earth and substances most certainly affect these processes. For example, it's not possible to undo the CNS depressive effects of alcohol. We can still be quite in control but nevertheless our consciousness dims down more and more and ultimately simply blacks out. For this reason alcohol is very detrimental for spiritual development. It practically ruins everything that we are slowly building. What we build with one hand we demolish with the other.

In this sense, what I say about psilocybin is not meant as if one can have 50 grams dry without passing out but only that the opening up towards the astral body is nothing that we don't already have direct experience of in much more harmonious, higher resolution and self-conscious way.

And of course the fact remains that this psychedelic opening towards the astral doesn't at all give us the concepts and finer discrimination that can only be attained through patient and rigorous study and training. Without this we look at a flattened Imagination of our supersensible nature and simply can't discern anything. The reason is that this discernment happens through cognition and doesn't arrive ready-made through visions. I repeat it again because it is so important - the greatest illusion we can succumb into is that psychedelics give us some objective higher perspective. Some imagine that they give the same experience as higher development but in an alternative way. This is simply false. Being pushed in the astral body through psychedelics is like a blind man going outside and only feeling the tingling warmth of the Sun. Psychedelics don't give us neither the structure of the eye, nor the cognition to know what we are seeing in the light. So it really makes no sense for someone to say "I got so and so grams dry and completely dissolved into the primordial potential, yet I didn't see neither the soul organs (chakras) nor different bodies, nor celestial beings."

Now I don't want to repeat everything I said in the long post. I think everything needed is already there. Just to affirm - yes, the dissolution at the third gate is not at all the end. In fact Ben has a very good point in his post above.

Think of it that way: we can cross the third gate in two different ways. One is when we cross it by keeping our gaze downwards. This results in the experience of the void. The ground beneath our feet dissolves, our soul mirror dissolves, there's nothing left to reflect our consciousness - it all becomes nothingness. We enter deep dreamless sleep from within the psychedelic state. It's like crossing the event horizon of a black hole.

The other way is by keeping our gaze upwards. I already explained that this is not simply geometric 'up' but a very specific soul disposition, where we open up for something much more greater and powerful than us, by virtue of which our ordinary consciousness exists. Here Ben's image is much more appropriate. In this way it's like we are crossing the event horizon of a White hole.

Now here our views with Ben will probably diverge again, because this Spiritual World of potential is not simply a unstructured soup of unrealized potential from which the ego draws its experiences, but actual fractal-like hierarchy of Cosmic Thoughts of spiritual beings, which act like morphogenetic fields (to use some fancy terms) for all that we observe as World Content - the kingdoms of Nature, the planetary spheres, our own being, our bodies, our ideas, opinions, desires and so on.

This is the main point of difference between mystic traditions and Gnostic esoterism. In mysticism the World ends together with personal consciousness - irrelevant if we imagine the zero-point as black or white singularity. When the "I" finds its higher nature within the Spiritual World, we can live in full consciousness among spiritual beings and behold how our Earthly self comes together. And this is not to simply confront both in a mindless versus battle. Everything becomes completely clear when we realize that mystic traditions were completely in their right place in the times before the Christ event. After that something completely new has inflown into the Earthly evolution and it is thanks to it that Gnosticism became at all possible as actual cognitive "I"-experience within the Macrocosm.

We should really take a moment and appreciate this difference. The first thing is relatively easy to understand and imagine because we all know our ego consciousness. All that is needed is to imagine how it coalesces from or dissolves back to the Cosmic background - again - irrelevant if from the black nothingness or white plenum potential. Higher consciousness leads us on the other side of the Earthly self, so to speak. There we witness how spiritual beings shape the Cosmic structure, within which intellectual consciousness is embedded. This is very important distinction. In mysticism the question for the structure of the World is either not addressed at all or is viewed as consensual creation among multitude of personal consciousnesses - much in the spirit of Adur's essays. In both cases it's assumed that everything of significance is in the 'space' between the singularity from which personal consciousness emerges and the perceptual phenomena.

Through the methods of higher development we can gain consciousness beyond the singularity of personal consciousness. In this sense, the spectrum between the pole of personal singularity and perceptible phenomena is a kind of octave embedded into higher order spectrum. This has always been known in Gnostic schools as Microcosm and Macrocosm. The singularity of personal consciousness is not the ultimate source of the World but a pole of an octave within a higher order spectrum where there's another Macrocosmic Solar singularity (which in its turn is within even higher order octave).
Cleric,

My apologies for the misunderstanding, the things you were saying about the psychedelic experience seemed so outlandish to me that I assumed you had never tried psychedelics. Sorry for that! I sincerely admire what you did, taking mushrooms again out of pure scientific honesty. And the fact that you didn't get the "rollercoaster ride" anymore clearly shows that you have attained a great degree of "higher development". Congratulations!

Now I can see more clearly than ever how different our paths are. It seems like we are moving in completely opposite directions. By the way, I recently started reading Steiner's Philosophy of Freedom, and the more I understand spiritual science the less attractive I find it. What Steiner calls "freedom" is almost the polar opposite of what I would call freedom. It has no appeal to me. (I can see how powerful this "spiritual science" can be, though.)

I guess it all amounts to personality types. Different types are drawn to different kinds of spiritual work. That's the way it should be.

I think the psychedelic experience has a lot of value, if approached in the right way, and by the right people (it certainly isn't for everybody). I've learned a lot from my psychedelic trips. And what I've learned has given me more freedom. But I don't feel the need to prove this to anybody. The freedom I'm talking about is not the freedom you are seeking, so I think we better leave it there.
Physicalists hold two fundamental beliefs:

1. The essence of Nature is Mathematics.
2. Consciousness is a product of the human brain.

But the two contraries are true:

1. The essence of Nature is Consciousness.
2. Mathematics is a product of the human brain.
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Re: What causes bad trips?

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Lou Gold wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:29 pmI'm always intrigued when Ramana Maharshi says that 'enlightenment' feels like being wide awake in deep dreamless sleep.
It is intriguing, but I don't find it surprising since the notion that there was some 'Ramana' that was other than That which, paradoxically enough, is awake in deep dreamless sleep had been dispelled. Why That dreams up such a notion, only to have it dispelled, is perhaps even more intriguing ;)
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
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Eugene I
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Re: What causes bad trips?

Post by Eugene I »

Soul_of_Shu wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:07 am It is intriguing, but I don't find it surprising since the notion that there was some 'Ramana' that was other than That which, paradoxically enough, is awake in deep dreamless sleep had been dispelled. Why That dreams up such a notion, only to have it dispelled, is perhaps even more intriguing ;)
Because the only way for That to know and experience life from Ramana's perspective is to allow such perspective to be.
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Lou Gold
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Re: What causes bad trips?

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Soul_of_Shu wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:07 am
Lou Gold wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:29 pmI'm always intrigued when Ramana Maharshi says that 'enlightenment' feels like being wide awake in deep dreamless sleep.
It is intriguing, but I don't find it surprising since the notion that there was some 'Ramana' that was other than That which, paradoxically enough, is awake in deep dreamless sleep had been dispelled. Why That dreams up such a notion, only to have it dispelled, is perhaps even more intriguing ;)
OK, I confess my stupidity. I honestly don't grok what you are saying. Can you simplify? Kid simple would be best.
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