What does physicalist science tell us about reality?

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AshvinP
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Re: What does physicalist science tell us about reality?

Post by AshvinP »

Jim Cross wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:07 am What does physicalist science tell us about reality?

Nothing.
In philosophy of science and in epistemology, instrumentalism is a methodological view that ideas are useful instruments, and that the worth of an idea is based on how effective it is in explaining and predicting phenomena.[1]

According to instrumentalists, a successful scientific theory reveals nothing known either true or false about nature's unobservable objects, properties or processes.[2] Scientific theory is merely a tool whereby humans predict observations in a particular domain of nature by formulating laws, which state or summarize regularities, while theories themselves do not reveal supposedly hidden aspects of nature that somehow explain these laws.[3] Instrumentalism is a perspective originally introduced by Pierre Duhem in 1906.[3]

Rejecting scientific realism's ambitions to uncover metaphysical truth about nature,[3] instrumentalism is usually categorized as an antirealism, although its mere lack of commitment to scientific theory's realism can be termed nonrealism. Instrumentalism merely bypasses debate concerning whether, for example, a particle spoken about in particle physics is a discrete entity enjoying individual existence, or is an excitation mode of a region of a field, or is something else altogether.[4][5][6] Instrumentalism holds that theoretical terms need only be useful to predict the phenomena, the observed outcomes.[4]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrumentalism

Instrumentalism is itself a physicalist-dualist approch to science. It assumes a world "out there", a bunch of people with isolated mental realms passively observing that world and trying to recreate that world by way of ideas. None of that needs to be assumed or should be assumed when doing authentic science. I have already explained this to you. Hoffman doesn't assume that when he does science. Please do not bother replying that Hoffman is wrong and anyone who is wrong is not doing science. That is a profound failure to grasp what science is. And all your supposed "critiques" of his conclusions also assume physicalism is true. You are really the quintessential fish in water who assumes there is nothing else because that's all it knows.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
Jim Cross
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Re: What does physicalist science tell us about reality?

Post by Jim Cross »

AshvinP wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:59 am
Jim Cross wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:07 am What does physicalist science tell us about reality?

Nothing.
In philosophy of science and in epistemology, instrumentalism is a methodological view that ideas are useful instruments, and that the worth of an idea is based on how effective it is in explaining and predicting phenomena.[1]

According to instrumentalists, a successful scientific theory reveals nothing known either true or false about nature's unobservable objects, properties or processes.[2] Scientific theory is merely a tool whereby humans predict observations in a particular domain of nature by formulating laws, which state or summarize regularities, while theories themselves do not reveal supposedly hidden aspects of nature that somehow explain these laws.[3] Instrumentalism is a perspective originally introduced by Pierre Duhem in 1906.[3]

Rejecting scientific realism's ambitions to uncover metaphysical truth about nature,[3] instrumentalism is usually categorized as an antirealism, although its mere lack of commitment to scientific theory's realism can be termed nonrealism. Instrumentalism merely bypasses debate concerning whether, for example, a particle spoken about in particle physics is a discrete entity enjoying individual existence, or is an excitation mode of a region of a field, or is something else altogether.[4][5][6] Instrumentalism holds that theoretical terms need only be useful to predict the phenomena, the observed outcomes.[4]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrumentalism

Instrumentalism is itself a physicalist-dualist approch to science. It assumes a world "out there", a bunch of people with isolated mental realms passively observing that world and trying to recreate that world by way of ideas. None of that needs to be assumed or should be assumed when doing authentic science. I have already explained this to you. Hoffman doesn't assume that when he does science. Please do not bother replying that Hoffman is wrong and anyone who is wrong is not doing science. That is a profound failure to grasp what science is. And all your supposed "critiques" of his conclusions also assume physicalism is true. You are really the quintessential fish in water who assumes there is nothing else because that's all it knows.
Actually both BK and Hoffman assume there is a world "out there" too.

Have you actually read anything by either of them?
donsalmon
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Re: What does physicalist science tell us about reality?

Post by donsalmon »

This is excellent: "Scientific measurements only reveal to us consistent patterns of sense-perceptional phenomena in time-space framework. The theoretical area of natural sciences finds mathematical equations that model and approximate the observed patterns with mathematical expressions. These models are very useful for practical purposes because they can predict the behavior of natural systems. However, I do not believe that these math models have anything to do with the "noumenal" source of those phenomena. They only give us approximate math models of how the phenomena behave, but do not explain what they "noumenally" are and what their noumenal source is." (Eugene: Can you write me at donsalmon7@gmail.com - this is one of the best, most succinct summaries of the essence of physicalism I've seen - a lot easier to read than many of Bernardo's essays too!)

Jim, you are criticizing what other people are saying, but so far you haven't said what physicalism is. I spent a few weeks at the "Naturalism" Facebook group run by Tom Clark. Neither he nor anybody else - as I predicted - could even come close to defining what "physical" means. Jim, you spoke of 'everyday" experience, and I assume you would just say, "Well, a ball is physical." I assume you would agree that the way the word "physical" is used in the previous sentence is not the way physicalists use the word when they say ultimately everything is "physical." What does that mean? If there is something "physical" that is the substratum of all else, what is it? And you can't say "Quidbits" as one FB group member (a full professor of philosophy no less) said. This goes back to Eugene's observation regarding scientific measurements.

And a few folks mentioned naive realism. physicalists are the very opposite of naive realists. Take physicalist neuroscientists - no colors, no sounds, no tactile feel; nothing but, well, we're back to Tegmark's math. Bernardo gave us a beautiful image for people who think math - or the big craze: "information" - is reality. This is like saying the essence of Lewis Carroll's Cheshire Cat is the smile that remains after the cat is removed.

Finally, Ben asked the most interesting question. Jan (my wife) and I have several blog posts and videos about attention. You're referring to a specific kind of attention, what Les Fehmi calls detached, narrow-focus attention. It's been the predominant societal form of attention in the West for at least 6 centuries. Dr. Iain McGilchrist suggests the shift from a wider, more immersed form of attention underlies the shift from the Middle Ages to the Modern age (also from Catholicism, with its roots still in mythos, to the more rationalist Protestant religion).

I see folks here are familiar with Barfield. Barfield describes the shift in terms of the medieval person feeling the sky as a garment one wears; whereas the modern person feels as if the sky is some far off, separate "thing" and as if he/she is, as Kierkegaard said, as if an alien placed here with no sense of rootedness or home.

Ben, if you want to get more practical, Culadasa, a Buddhist teacher and former neuroscience professor, has written of two forms of attention in his book "The Mind Illuminated." He speaks of "peripheral awareness" - that is 360 degree awareness, effortlessly taking in all of phenomenal experience in one "swoop." Then there is "selective attention."

Loch Kelley, a teacher of non dual awareness, did a fascinating exercise with a group of 80 people. He divided them into 2 groups, 40 each. They both were instructed to do a basic Zen breath counting exercise:

Inhale, count 1
Exhale
Inhale, count 2
Exhale

and so on up to 10

When you get to 10, go back to 1.

If you lose count, go back to 1.

That's it.

With one major difference: The first group was told to put all their effort into focusing exclusively on the breath (this is Culadasa's "selective attention". The second group was told to open their awareness to the full range of experience, and simply have one tiny portion of attention gently noticing the breath count.

RESULTS

Group 1 - not 1 single person was able to maintain the counting without losing track.

Group 2 - every single person - all 40 - reported that not only did they not lose track at all, but it felt effortless.

This is Barfield's distinction between the attention common to medieval folks and that commonly employed today. The sense of constant time pressure, the underlying feelings of irritation and frustration, the constant triggering of the fight or flight response, are all seen in neurological studies as the result of the almost constant living in the mode of selective attention.
donsalmon
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Re: What does physicalist science tell us about reality?

Post by donsalmon »

Forgot to provide a link: Here is one of our videos, "Attention Game"

The instructions should be sufficient in the video, but you might want to glance at the description below the video for more insight.

There's very interesting research, by the way (reported at some length by Les Fehmi in his book "Open Focus," that attempting to attend to silence or just to the space around you has a deeply relaxing effect, since attention is unable to grab at any objects.

The belief in physicalism/materialism/naturalism is really not based primarily on an intellectual process, but rather, is an effect of this kind of attention. That's why it's SO hard to have a reasonable conversation with someone who believes in physicalism - you're not talking within the same experiential mode.

Here's something about this I posted on my facebook page recently:

AUGUST 28, 2021

There's a very nice, very simple teaching given by Tibetan Dzogchen (pronounced "Zoag-chen")teacher Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche. It dovetails perfectly with what we teach about open heartful awareness, and you may find it provides you very easy access to that state.

He refers to experiencing the qualities of stillness, silence and spaciousness. He connects them to our ordinary experience in the following way:

Stillness is accessed through the body.

Silence is accessed through - paradoxically - hearing

Spaciousness is accessed through the "space" of mind (those of you who have gotten to week 11 will be familiar with our exercise "the space of awareness").

It's a wonderful teaching for two reasons.

First, it provides an unusually easy way of tuning into these qualities in the midst of everyday experience, no matter how challenging it is or how distracted you seem.

Second - and perhaps more important for some - it provides a profound way of dealing with some of our most troubling emotions, cravings and impulses.

STILLNESS

Allowing the body to settle into a quiet, still pose, just tune in - with the softest, gentlest effort imaginable - to the quality of stillness. Notice there is no clear boundary. The stillness does not end at the "edge" of the body. If you allow yourself to settle deeply into this, you'll find the stillness seems to extend out indefinitely.

SILENCE

As you settle into this quality of stillness, you may notice something like a quality of deep quiet, of silence, that can be felt underlying all sounds.

SPACIOUSNESS

Our attention usually clings to whatever object it is focused on. In the 3rd week of the course you learn about shifting to different modes of attention. Just noticing that there is ALREADY an awareness present that takes in all of your experience, and then tuning into the wide spaciousness of that awareness, can be enough to release much of the tension you may be feeling, without suppressing it or trying to control, or alter it in any way.

To avoid making this post overly long, I'll just add - as you learn to tune into stillness, silence and spaciousness, you can begin to explore what it's like to be in that still, silent spacious "place" of open heartful awareness AT THE SAME TIME you're experiencing sadness, fear, anger, cravings, etc.
I don't want to provide a spoiler here. I'll just tell you, as you learn early on in the course, this integration of stillness with challenging experience can bring about lasting physiological changes throughout all systems of the body.

The neural pathways themselves are significantly altered just by this "be-ing" with painful experience while tuning into stillness, silence and spaciousness.

Every time you remember to tune in like this, you're deepening the transformation of your brain and nervous system.

That's why we call it "remembering to be."

Just be -

still,

silent,

spacious,

open-hearted -

be-ing.
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AshvinP
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Re: What does physicalist science tell us about reality?

Post by AshvinP »

Jim Cross wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:09 pm Actually both BK and Hoffman assume there is a world "out there" too.

Have you actually read anything by either of them?

BK is not doing science. As for Hoffman, I don't see that assumption baked into his conscious realism model - actually I think it is BK who said once that Hoffman can pursue the same model just starting with One 'conscious agent'. Either way, you are missing the point - the assumption, regardless of who employs it, is false and skews all scientific approaches results from there. The instrumentalist concludes science can never have anything to do with noumenal relations because it arbitrarily cuts itself off from the beginning by way of that dualist assumption. I also pointed your attention to Goethe last time, who of course you ignored. He is perfect example of someone who pursued science of color, botany, and a few other things without that assumption.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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Re: What does physicalist science tell us about reality?

Post by Jim Cross »

Jim, you are criticizing what other people are saying, but so far you haven't said what physicalism is.
Don,

Physicalism, like idealism, comes in multiple varieties. There isn't one sort . I believe most scientists, if they thought deeply about it, would end up being instrumentalists. Instrumentalism takes no position on the nature of reality. It just looks for useful and pragmatic theories that are predictive.

So the answer to your question from that standpoint is that physical science tells us nothing about reality. The question isn't of value to an instrumentalist viewpoint..

My criticism here is that many people are presenting a unnuanced view of physicalism that doesn't recognize its varieties and, in particular, doesn't recognize the instrumentalist version of it.
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Re: What does physicalist science tell us about reality?

Post by Jim Cross »

AshvinP wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:28 pm
Jim Cross wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:09 pm Actually both BK and Hoffman assume there is a world "out there" too.

Have you actually read anything by either of them?

BK is not doing science. As for Hoffman, I don't see that assumption baked into his conscious realism model - actually I think it is BK who said once that Hoffman can pursue the same model just starting with One 'conscious agent'. Either way, you are missing the point - the assumption, regardless of who employs it, is false and skews all scientific approaches results from there. The instrumentalist concludes science can never have anything to do with noumenal relations because it arbitrarily cuts itself off from the beginning by way of that dualist assumption. I also pointed your attention to Goethe last time, who of course you ignored. He is perfect example of someone who pursued science of color, botany, and a few other things without that assumption.
What is W is Hoffman's PDA loop diagram below?

Image

Even if you substitute Hoffman's network of conscious agents for W it is still "out there". Goethe thought light was "out there" too.
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AshvinP
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Re: What does physicalist science tell us about reality?

Post by AshvinP »

Jim Cross wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:45 pm
AshvinP wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:28 pm
Jim Cross wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:09 pm Actually both BK and Hoffman assume there is a world "out there" too.

Have you actually read anything by either of them?

BK is not doing science. As for Hoffman, I don't see that assumption baked into his conscious realism model - actually I think it is BK who said once that Hoffman can pursue the same model just starting with One 'conscious agent'. Either way, you are missing the point - the assumption, regardless of who employs it, is false and skews all scientific approaches results from there. The instrumentalist concludes science can never have anything to do with noumenal relations because it arbitrarily cuts itself off from the beginning by way of that dualist assumption. I also pointed your attention to Goethe last time, who of course you ignored. He is perfect example of someone who pursued science of color, botany, and a few other things without that assumption.
What is W is Hoffman's PDA loop diagram below?

Image

Even if you substitute Hoffman's network of conscious agents for W it is still "out there". Goethe thought light was "out there" too.

That's not true. The "W" can be entirely within our internal experience. We can easily perceive internal processes (not so easily for modern people, but still very possible) and make them the object of our thinking. We can do that most easily with our own thought-forms. There is no need to assume "W" is something other than our own activity to start systematically investigating the perceptions. And once we start doing that, we may come to realize what we previously assumed was "external", for no reason other than our naïve perception, is not essentially external at all. Goethe did not assume light was "out there" and I have no idea where you get that from. This brief quote makes that rather clear:

"I am the decisive element - it is my personal approach that creates the climate; it is my daily mood that makes the weather."
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
Jim Cross
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Re: What does physicalist science tell us about reality?

Post by Jim Cross »

AshvinP wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:55 pm
Jim Cross wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:45 pm
AshvinP wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:28 pm


BK is not doing science. As for Hoffman, I don't see that assumption baked into his conscious realism model - actually I think it is BK who said once that Hoffman can pursue the same model just starting with One 'conscious agent'. Either way, you are missing the point - the assumption, regardless of who employs it, is false and skews all scientific approaches results from there. The instrumentalist concludes science can never have anything to do with noumenal relations because it arbitrarily cuts itself off from the beginning by way of that dualist assumption. I also pointed your attention to Goethe last time, who of course you ignored. He is perfect example of someone who pursued science of color, botany, and a few other things without that assumption.
What is W is Hoffman's PDA loop diagram below?

Image

Even if you substitute Hoffman's network of conscious agents for W it is still "out there". Goethe thought light was "out there" too.

That's not true. The "W" can be entirely within our internal experience. We can easily perceive internal processes (not so easily for modern people, but still very possible) and make them the object of our thinking. We can do that most easily with our own thought-forms. There is no need to assume "W" is something other than our own activity to start systematically investigating the perceptions. And once we start doing that, we may come to realize what we previously assumed was "external", for no reason other than our naïve perception, is not essentially external at all. Goethe did not assume light was "out there" and I have no idea where you get that from. This brief quote makes that rather clear:

"I am the decisive element - it is my personal approach that creates the climate; it is my daily mood that makes the weather."
Is something wrong with your vision? The diagram has X in it for Experience and a W in it for World and they are separate.
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AshvinP
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Re: What does physicalist science tell us about reality?

Post by AshvinP »

Jim Cross wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 2:06 pm
AshvinP wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:55 pm
Jim Cross wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:45 pm

What is W is Hoffman's PDA loop diagram below?

Image

Even if you substitute Hoffman's network of conscious agents for W it is still "out there". Goethe thought light was "out there" too.

That's not true. The "W" can be entirely within our internal experience. We can easily perceive internal processes (not so easily for modern people, but still very possible) and make them the object of our thinking. We can do that most easily with our own thought-forms. There is no need to assume "W" is something other than our own activity to start systematically investigating the perceptions. And once we start doing that, we may come to realize what we previously assumed was "external", for no reason other than our naïve perception, is not essentially external at all. Goethe did not assume light was "out there" and I have no idea where you get that from. This brief quote makes that rather clear:

"I am the decisive element - it is my personal approach that creates the climate; it is my daily mood that makes the weather."
Is something wrong with your vision? The diagram has X in it for Experience and a W in it for World and they are separate.

Jim - think of the thought-form "triangle" and observe it. Maybe add a couple more thought-forms of "circle" and "square", etc. to what you are observing. You are now experiencing (X) a world (W) of thought-forms entirely within you. You can even use your perception (P) of one thought-form to decide (D) to create another one (A) and observe the new one added to your inner world (W) you are experiencing (X). Seriously, you don't even need to respond... this is so simple that it cannot even be obfuscated by tangled physicalist abstractions, so just save yourself the trouble.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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