Dr. Bernardo Kastrup, Idealism vs Materialism

[Hedge90]

This might be akin to a D&D tabletop (my son has been a dungeon master for years). What I saw was the fun and interest of participants enjoying taking on a different persona and interacting with others from that perspective. Exploring their role and embracing uncertainty seemed to be the appeal, as well as the allure of the imagination.

For whatever unknown reason I was never much into board games, pretty much loathing Monopoly, but had D&D been around in my wayward youth, it might have drawn me into its allure.

Well if your exposure to boad games is constituted by Monopoly, you are not to blame. Most very high profile games (Monopoly, Risk, etc., what you'll find in any non-specialised store too) are crap. It's a crime against humanity that most people still think of these when someone says board game.

[AshvinP]

Tom Campbell also talks of a Divine telos being about lowering entropy, which is somehow connected to Love ...

Thanks, Shu. I intended to relate Love to the picture but it seems it has become lost in the keystroke linearization process.

It's worth noting that the view on entropy that Campbell describes is of quite different kind that what was elaborated here. TC's Big TOE is really an 'interesting' phenomenon. It's a fine example of the intellect going wild and practically building a sci-fi universe. The good thing is that TC doesn't claim it to be otherwise. Yet there are people who are fascinated by such ideas and make a following.

TC quickly skims over the idea that the Whole fragments into pieces, which then go on to explore the possibilities. This is once again the already well known Flat MAL paradigm. Pretty much everything is a kind of pan-psychism from where the universe begins to be built up entirely in bottom-up fashion. It's never ending increasing in complexity. This is practically the dream of the materialist too - our whole civilization builds upon layers after layers of complexity. The problem of course is that this complexity is of mechanical nature. Everyone today shudders at the thought what will happen if the electric grid or global communications fail. The whole edifice of modern civilization is resting upon fragile foundations.

TC's view builds in the same spirit, of course with the notion that we should do that out of Love and not fear. But there are many kinds of Love. The cat eats the mouse out of Love too. So the whole philosophy that everything will be fine as long as we support each other and everyone is free to pursue their desires, completely crumbles when it faces reality. Social conflict issues precisely when everyone wants to pursue their unquestioned desires. As soon as these desires clash, a sacrifice has to be made but who will be the first to make the step? These are things of basic human psychology that people simply don't want to look into for the simplest reason that they don't want to question the nature of their own desires, opinions, views, etc. That's why the solution is always projected outwards - "only if science discovers cure for cancer ...", "only if everyone would live out of Love and not out of fear ...", "Only if everyone would abandon the ego and live in the uncreated nothingness ...". The last thing we want is to consider the possibility that it is our own being that must be transformed, and not seek social and spiritual systems that hopefully organize life in such a way that we can exercise our whims unhindered.

The complexity of the Natural world is already there. Is there reason to look further than the human brain, the most marvelous structure known? It doesn't make sense to hijack this already existing reality and keep convoluting it into more and more complex relations and call that 'lowering the entropy'. Any complex biological energetic process on Earth can be traced back to the Sun - it is Solar energy that supports the entropic gradient. When we trace this process we can follow how low entropy energy travels through space, enters the Earth atmosphere, interacts with chlorophyll, propels the whole biological world and so on. This is in purely physical sense. It is similar in spiritual sense, where instead of tracing the abstract concept of energy, we trace the processes in the Divine Mind, which become increasingly convoluted (higher entropy) and ultimately lead to our current state, where we're facing impossible complexity. Lowering our entropy is the actual fully conscious transformation of our being such that, just as we normally live with our own thoughts, so we live in higher order Cosmic Thoughts, which are that actual causal factors behind the dissipated higher entropy states. It is quite clear that TC doesn't speak of that. Everything that we speak of here is completely collapsed and lost between the 'Consciousness broke down to pieces, so that it can interact with itself'. There's absolutely nothing between Consciousness and the 'piece'. Everything that exists is the build up of 'information' into more and more complex relations. This is also why people feel comfortable with the 'instinctive MAL' paradigm - it's a very convenient upgrade of materialism, we again build up the World order from the bottom-up, except that we do that from pieces that have inherent capacity of consciousness.

If we understand entropy in the way physics finds it, then we reckon that there isn't 'absolutely nothing' between Consciousness and the piece but in fact everything is there. Then lowering entropy is not further increase of complexity (even though it is hoped that would bring greater harmony between the pieces) but the actual conscious penetration into the living processes that are already responsible for the complex picture we observe on the natural sensory surface.

When things are seen in this way, Love also enters most naturally into the picture. Not as the Pollyanna vision that 'only if everyone was good to each other, we would be able to fulfill our deepest whishes unhindered' but as the Love for something greater, which is our true essence, yet it far outgrows our narrow personal interests (which can only arise because of an incomplete view). In this Love we realize that we must sacrifice precisely our egoistic desires that perpetuate the soul frictions which ultimately dissipates consciousness as 'heat' and lead us into high entropy state where we can no longer make any sense of the World Content except for a closed handful of ideas that revolve around the biography of our bodily self.

Another excellent post, Cleric! The imagery you provide is so helpful here. It is really a tragic irony of the modern age that we are submerged in the sea, running out of oxygen, mechanically thinking to figure out ways of extracting oxygen from the water, when there is an oxygen tank right behind us. The only thing stopping us from turning around is our own intellectual ego. We don't want anything of substance to exist between us and the Divine Mind, because then we can blindly follow whatever desires give us fleeting pleasure while feeling intellectually satisfied that we have already explained whatever there is to know about the phenomenal world and our role in it. It's really unfortunate that "instinctive MAL" has become such a gateway to egoic desires. When we reflect on it, we can see how it explains absolutely nothing of our experience, just like materialist evolutionary theory of random mindless interactions of 'particles' explains nothing. The so-called explanation in both cases boils down to, "complex things exist now because more simple things existed before and combined together". We should always ask ourselves whether we are really looking for explanations when clinging to such assertions, or rather we are looking for excuses to avoid all meaningful explanations.

[Soul_of_Shu]

Well if your exposure to boad games is constituted by Monopoly, you are not to blame. Most very high profile games (Monopoly, Risk, etc., what you'll find in any non-specialised store too) are crap. It's a crime against humanity that most people still think of these when someone says board game.

Poor stratos is probably now lamenting posting this topic in 'General'. To be honest, I know nothing about more advanced game culture, or what appeal it may have. I did actually get into chess at one time, but now that too has succumbed to chess engines that routinely beat grand masters. Maybe why they've invented 4 player chess, which I must admit looks like fun ...

[Ben Iscatus]

Although I'm not now a particular fan of TC, I think he is worthy of respect because of his multitudinous explorations of the larger reality. I think perhaps, Cleric, you misrepresent him a bit.

It's a fine example of the intellect going wild and practically building a sci-fi universe. The good thing is that TC doesn't claim it to be otherwise.

Actually, he often suggests that the intellect needs to be bypassed and that intuition is important. He knows that love does not reside in the intellect.

The last thing we want is to consider the possibility that it is our own being that must be transformed, and not seek social and spiritual systems that hopefully organize life in such a way that we can exercise our whims unhindered.

TC is constantly saying that we must "lower our entropy" or "increase the quality of our consciousness" by thinking of other people rather than ourselves. He places no importance at all on our own natural egoic desires or whims. For him, the inner transformation you speak of comes automatically when we as individuals put others before ourselves - this will bring all the joy and fulfilment we might want, and he claims the Larger Consciousness System will support each of our efforts in this direction. I'm not saying he is correct about this (I agree with you that the way he says love works is much too simplistic, a kind of sanitised Gandhi and Mandela view of the world), but it does seem to be how he now sees it.

Everyone today shudders at the thought what will happen if the electric grid or global communications fail. The whole edifice of modern civilization is resting upon fragile foundations.

I agree with you that his TOE seems to be a convenient upgrade to materialism - but it's also a convenient upgrade to economic capitalism and consumerism in that it believes in never-ending increase and progress. It belittles the shadow side and the reality of history: that all civilizations are cyclic and what goes up must come down. Computer metaphors won't be much use when computers are buried in the rubble.

BTW, I'm not sure I'd want to make the human brain a useful model of complexity -as idealists, we believe it's only a partial image, don't we? It doesn't seem to store memories and remember that brain damage, although usually devastating, has sometimes been known to increase abilities. Also, even tiny creatures with no or few neurons exhibit a lot of our complex behavioural traits

[Cleric K]

Another excellent post, Cleric! The imagery you provide is so helpful here. It is really a tragic irony of the modern age that we are submerged in the sea, running out of oxygen, mechanically thinking to figure out ways of extracting oxygen from the water, when there is an oxygen tank right behind us. The only thing stopping us from turning around is our own intellectual ego. We don't want anything of substance to exist between us and the Divine Mind, because then we can blindly follow whatever desires give us fleeting pleasure while feeling intellectually satisfied that we have already explained whatever there is to know about the phenomenal world and our role in it. It's really unfortunate that "instinctive MAL" has become such a gateway to egoic desires. When we reflect on it, we can see how it explains absolutely nothing of our experience, just like materialist evolutionary theory of random mindless interactions of 'particles' explains nothing. The so-called explanation in both cases boils down to, "complex things exist now because more simple things existed before and combined together". We should always ask ourselves whether we are really looking for explanations when clinging to such assertions, or rather we are looking for excuses to avoid all meaningful explanations.

Thanks Ashvin!
Yes, you pretty much summed it up. If we could step outside our current persona, even for a moment, could we really find anything more exciting than the prospect of experiencing from the first-person perspective, the actual inner reality of the living Universe? To live with the Thoughts that weave and create the Worlds and beings? To understand the creative meaning that is intertwined into everything - from the smallest, to the largest? To understand how the human being functions, how the mind works, how feelings come about? It's a simple fact - this is precisely what any genuine interest into existence has always dreamed of. Anything other than this, puts us forever outside the inner essence of the Cosmos, in the land of shadows.

Yet in our current state of development things are quite inverted. Precisely this which alone could give the most complete and meaningful experience of reality is avoided. And there are objective reasons for that. There are certain forces which act like magnetic repulsion. We're continually being thrust towards the periphery and turning our gaze inwards even for a moment, is felt as something dreadful. All genuine Initiatic schools are well aware of these forces and facing them is part of the preparatory work. In our everyday consciousness we know nothing of these forces yet they precipitate as two basic human emotions - pride and fear. There's also an interesting blend of them that we know as shame. If anyone has the courage to trace the actual reasons why deeper experience of reality is avoided, we inevitably arrive at these feelings. Everything else that we come upon intellectually are only commentaries, justifications and excuses over these emotions.

[Cleric K]

Although I'm not now a particular fan of TC, I think he is worthy of respect because of his multitudinous explorations of the larger reality. I think perhaps, Cleric, you misrepresent him a bit.

It's a fine example of the intellect going wild and practically building a sci-fi universe. The good thing is that TC doesn't claim it to be otherwise.

Actually, he often suggests that the intellect needs to be bypassed and that intuition is important. He knows that love does not reside in the intellect.

The last thing we want is to consider the possibility that it is our own being that must be transformed, and not seek social and spiritual systems that hopefully organize life in such a way that we can exercise our whims unhindered.

TC is constantly saying that we must "lower our entropy" or "increase the quality of our consciousness" by thinking of other people rather than ourselves. He places no importance at all on our own natural egoic desires or whims. For him, the inner transformation you speak of comes automatically when we as individuals put others before ourselves - this will bring all the joy and fulfilment we might want, and he claims the Larger Consciousness System will support each of our efforts in this direction. I'm not saying he is correct about this (I agree with you that the way he says love works is much too simplistic, a kind of sanitised Gandhi and Mandela view of the world), but it does seem to be how he now sees it.

Everyone today shudders at the thought what will happen if the electric grid or global communications fail. The whole edifice of modern civilization is resting upon fragile foundations.

I agree with you that his TOE seems to be a convenient upgrade to materialism - but it's also a convenient upgrade to economic capitalism and consumerism in that it believes in never-ending increase and progress. It belittles the shadow side and the reality of history: that all civilizations are cyclic and what goes up must come down. Computer metaphors won't be much use when computers are buried in the rubble.

Ben, it is not my point to demean TC. His basic philosophy steps on rather standard conception that we can find in most mystical traditions - One Consciousness emerging from the Void and exploring manifested states. There's nothing novel here. What I meant with 'intellect gone wild' is his further elaborations to 'fill the gaps' through pure abstract combinatorics. I don't know if you've read his Big TOE book but he enters there into quite exquisite details about the Large Computer System. He describes far and wide how it works, how the processor ticks, how it propagates the simulation frame by frame, how memory banks are filled with archives of everything that has happened and so on and so on. If you ask him "how do you know all these things?" the honest answer would be - "I made them up! That's why it's called theory." It is about this that I say it's fantasy unleashed.

Other than that, of course, he steps on certain form of spirituality (as mentioned above) but in the final run, the 'wild part' of his theory doesn't really contribute anything which is not already known from the basic principles of any mystical tradition. It's like he was given the idea of the Force and he wrote a movie script for Star Wars

Well, if from all these spiritual computing mechanics, someone becomes inspired to give way to more Love instead of fear - so much the better. But I guess most simply end up with an overwhelming intellectual structure whose supposed reality can never be found as actual facts of experience.

[Soul_of_Shu]

Well, if from all these spiritual computing mechanics, someone becomes inspired to give way to more Love instead of fear - so much the better. But I guess most simply end up with an overwhelming intellectual structure whose supposed reality can never be found as actual facts of experience.

Such are the vagaries of forum interaction that we've spun-off into cyber-age inspired models of One><Many dynamics. In that regard, what are we to make of the notion going around in some spiritual circles now which suggests that with the evolutionary phase transition into a greater bandwidth of collective ideation, an upgrade to one's operating system is required, and that without such an adjustment then any given individual will find it increasingly and confusingly intolerable to operate within the new imperative order, such that it feels much more like disorder, and thus must either de-frag and metamorphose or go quite mad, if not check out all together, which indeed seems to be the case with many struggling psyches.

[Ben Iscatus]

what are we to make of the notion going around in some spiritual circles now which suggests that with the evolutionary phase transition into a greater bandwidth of collective ideation, an upgrade to one's operating system is required, and that without such an adjustment then any given individual will find it increasingly and confusingly intolerable to operate within the new imperative order, such that it feels much more like disorder, and thus must either de-frag and metamorphose or go quite mad, if not check out all together, which indeed seems to be the case with many struggling psyches.

I haven't been able to meet or hear of anyone who strikes me as having had this upgrade. In a world of 8 billion, and mass internet connectivity, it's almost surprising that we don't come across a few homo sapientior types. So I'm a skeptic. Harari says homo deus will have to be bio-engineered; but that won't be for spiritual qualities, will it?

Edit: Perhaps Greta Thunberg has had an upgrade?

[Eugene I]

I haven't been able to meet or hear of anyone who strikes me as having had this upgrade. In a world of 8 billion, and mass internet connectivity, it's almost surprising that we don't come across a few homo sapientior types. So I'm a skeptic. Harari says homo deus will have to be bio-engineered; but that won't be for spiritual qualities, will it?

Sharing your skepticism. If we look back at the millennia of the human history, we can see a certain progress in human behavior and mentality, much of it can be attributed to the technological and cultural progress and access to quality education. But the progress has been very slow, gradual and haven't yet touched the deep instinctive egoic human survival mechanisms. There have been many examples of spiritually progressed individuals, but they represent only a negligible minority of population. But also, over the history, there have been a lot of utopian theories (as part of some spiritual traditions, or as philosophical or sociopolitical theories such as communism) that might seem like very attractive and easy silver-bullet solutions to humanity's problems, but never worked in practice due to their over-simplistic understanding of reality and of the underlying problems. So, to hope that the humanity as a whole will upgrade into homo-trans-egoic within a century (by massively adopting idealism of Anthroposophy or what's not) would be rather naive.

But we should ask ourselves why do we have such unrealistic expectations for the progress of humanity? After all, the human progress is orders of magnitude faster compared to the natural selection based evolution progress. Why would we expect it to be even faster?

[Soul_of_Shu]

I haven't been able to meet or hear of anyone who strikes me as having had this upgrade. In a world of 8 billion, and mass internet connectivity, it's almost surprising that we don't come across a few homo sapientior types. So I'm a skeptic. Harari says homo deus will have to be bio-engineered; but that won't be for spiritual qualities, will it?

Oh ye of little faith! I've upgraded the OS from 4th density to 5th density and now have the capacity to live as a breatharian. Speaking of which, another question for Cleric: what's up with the notion of transitioning from 4th density to 5th? Does that correlate to any spheres of spiritual activity in Steiner-esque cosmology?