AshvinP wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:19 pmI see where the disconnect is here. Let's go back to QM example - it is a fact that quantum entanglement of 'particles' occurs. But would we expect anyone to simply accept that fact without reasoning it through for themselves? The same applies to 'facts' of spiritual science. If you ask Cleric or myself direct questions about what spiritual science claims to know, we will give you direct answers. But we are clearly leaving out most of the reasoning which leads to those answers (actually Cleric tends to include most of it, as I am sure you notice), and that is what each individual should seek out for themselves. We can provide links, summaries, helpful hints, etc. whenever possible, but we can't recreate the entire reasoning process in each post which deals with these questions. All of this is said in the context of your original question of how to distinguish between justified knowledge and mere 'beliefs' when confronted by various spiritual claims. To summarize, we need to recognize what we are doing when confronted by any claim in the various domains of life, so that we can learn to trust that our own spiritual activity is a reliable source. For me personally, I did not have any sense of "aha, now I have had the indelible experience which makes me ready to seriously ask these questions and investigate them". Perhaps that happens to some, but I suspect it is rare and most people would share my experience of, "well, I can either sit here and put off any investigation indefinitely because I am not sure exactly where to start or how to proceed, OR I can start somewhere (like within observation of my own thinking activity) and let the Spirit subtly guide me, through my own reasoning process, and see how the rest unfolds from there".
I don't know about how 'rare' these indelible events are, given the countless shared examples one can spend endless hours hearing and reading about. Who knows, maybe that too is accelerating now toward some critical mass. To be sure, it is fascinating to see how starting from two seemingly very different motivating factors, and I suppose cultural backgrounds, the same 'knowing' can be embraced. Such apparent beings do find a way to convey, however fleeting, or long, or meandering, or multifarious these incarnational expressions may be.
I mean rare in the context of whenever we decide, "hey, I want to know more about this particular field of inquiry, this hypothesis, this theory, etc." I don't think most people sit around saying, "I can't know more about anything until I have the indelible experience which indicates to me I am ready to proceed." We just start observing, reading, watching, etc. and reason through it as we build ideal constellations which make sense of the phenomena we are considering. In the case of spiritual science, the phenomena is really us - all our sensory perceptions, desires, feelings, and thoughts, as they manifest in our immanent experience. So it's actually much easier to make the ideal connections than it is with purely abstract fields of inquiry which may relate to something we have never consciously experienced before.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
Oh well, just another Steiner's mistake. Cleric admitted here that he made many of them. Whether it's about vaccines or anything else is not important, the real questions is: why did he make those mistakes and why did not he recognize them as mistakes? I asked this question here. We can just leave the Steiner's mistakes behind (who does not make mistakes?), but if we do not learn from them and continue to apply his philosophy and practice without understanding the root causes of his mistakes, we will make similar mistakes again and again. What differentiates science from pseudo-science is a method to correct mistakes and to verify its claims against reality. Same should apply to the spiritual science.
Eugene I. wrote: ↑Fri Dec 24, 2021 12:48 am
Oh well, just another Steiner's mistake. Cleric admitted here that he made many of them. Whether it's about vaccines or anything else is not important, the real questions is: why did he make those mistakes and why did not he recognize them as mistakes? I asked this question here. We can just leave the Steiner's mistakes behind (who does not make mistakes?), but if we do not learn from them and continue to apply his philosophy and practice without understanding the root causes of his mistakes, we will make similar mistakes again and again. What differentiates science from pseudo-science is a method to correct mistakes and to verify its claims against reality. Same should apply to the spiritual science.
What you call "science" does not even recognize the reality of soul, let alone have any theory on how it could be "killed". What is being called "science" by you is abstract intellectual theories which only deals with physical quantitive properties and ignores Time-experience altogether. It is the idolatry of abstract space. It's all nouns and no verbs. It can conceptualize "apple" but not the meaningful experience of 'falling'. It is pure syntax without semantics. It is naive realism of outer surfaces only studying the icons on desktop interface. It is listening to musical notes without recognizing melody or harmony. I really and truly hope that one day this all clicks for you, not as purely abstract theory, but as living and evolving Idea.
Also I encourage everyone to actually follow Eugene's link, read the full post by Cleric, and evaluate for themselves what he was actually saying.
That was my one comment to Eugene self-imposed limit
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
Here's another thought - If Steiner had substituted "vaccine" for "digital computer virus", and everything else spoken remained the same, we would herald him as a prophet and say "of course that is true!" Our soul-life is at risk of being 'killed' by modern materialism and mechanism and we are all aware of it, even if we don't call that rapidly withering aspect of ourselves "soul", which is also reflected in practically all of our popular entertainment for the last few decades. We really need to penetrate to the holistic and concrete meaning of these evolving processes, otherwise it all remains as fragmented abstract concepts, consisting in only the outer form of the words used, and we use our own abstraction as an excuse to ignore these most important considerations of our time.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
OK, as this falls into the 'been there/done that' category, I'm merging the most recent thread on this topic with the other thread from Sept. As for any further commentary, I suggest anyone interested in adding to it, read through the first thread beforehand, then if there's some new angle on this that hasn't already been covered, then go for it. However, if this is just going to get hung up in the same pattern of endless repetitive arguments we've heard before, with nothing new really coming of it, I'm seriously considering locking the topic.
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
AshvinP wrote: ↑Fri Dec 24, 2021 1:29 am
Here's another thought - If Steiner had substituted "vaccine" for "digital computer virus", and everything else spoken remained the same ...
Of course this is not an accurate analogy, because the 'vaccine' in this case would correspond to the anti-virus 'fix' or 'patch'.
On another note, call me woo-ish, but is anyone else beginning to wonder if this virus is now being transmitted like a thought-form meme, without requiring any corporeal interaction? My spouse and I haven't left the house in about 2 weeks, not wanting to jeopardize our plan to board a plane, and now she has cold symptoms typical of Omicron? Could it be, news junkie that she is, addicted to the daily stats updates about cases 'alarmingly skyrocketing/raging'—to paraphrase the attention-grabbing clickbait headlines—this is psychosomatic power of suggestion, or what?
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
AshvinP wrote: ↑Fri Dec 24, 2021 1:29 am
Here's another thought - If Steiner had substituted "vaccine" for "digital computer virus", and everything else spoken remained the same ...
Of course this is not an accurate analogy, because the 'vaccine' in this case would correspond to the anti-virus 'fix' or 'patch'.
On another note, call me woo-ish, but is anyone else beginning to wonder if this virus is now being transmitted like a thought-form meme, without requiring any corporeal interaction? My spouse and I haven't left the house in about 2 weeks, not wanting to jeopardize our plan to board a plane, and now she has cold symptoms typical of Omicron? Could it be, news junkie that she is, addicted to the daily stats updates about cases 'alarmingly skyrocketing/raging'—to paraphrase the attention-grabbing clickbait headlines—this is psychosomatic power of suggestion, or what?
I don't know too much about vaccines, but I thought they use the virus to block the virus in some way. The analogy is really to anything that may be designed, consciously or subconsciously, to materialize-mechanize our soul-life at a deep biological or physiological level, especially administered early in a person's cognitive development.
Maybe it should be called Omni-cron, because it does seem to be everywhere. I am trying to catch a plane later today, but United has already cancelled 2k+ flights. I am sure there are a fair amount of cases where people catch a winter cold but it's reported as an infection.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
AshvinP wrote: ↑Fri Dec 24, 2021 4:23 pm
I don't know too much about vaccines, but I thought they use the virus to block the virus in some way. The analogy is really to anything that may be designed, consciously or subconsciously, to materialize-mechanize our soul-life at a deep biological or physiological level, especially administered early in a person's cognitive development.
Maybe it should be called Omni-cron, because it does seem to be everywhere. I am trying to catch a plane later today, but United has already cancelled 2k+ flights. I am sure there are a fair amount of cases where people catch a winter cold but it's reported as an infection.
Yes, I can better see your point, with that clarification.
Hope you can realize your travel plans in the face of all this highly provisional, often apparently whimsically-in-flux, mind-jerk, ass-covering reactions from the so-called experts, also at times contradicting each other's conclusions. In that regard, while not necessarily offering much in the way of new ideas, or answers, and possibly inviting some politico trigger-effect, this recent interview with Charles Eisenstein, tangentially related to this topic once it gets into the nuanced deconstruction of the enemy-projecting, conspiracy-mongering, blame-game mentality that now pervades much of the Covid-age conversation, may be worth a listen ... Navigating Our Evolutionary/Metamorphosing Times:
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
