Cleric's Responses to Mystical Metaphysics (or How to Make a Logical Argument)

[Cleric K]

That's true, and the insights into the "machinery behind" the mundane human thoughts and perception and studying/observing the mechanics of the ego structures have always been part of many spiritual traditions of the past (including Buddhist: there is a reason they called their meditation technique "Vipassana" which means "insight meditation"). But what I'm saying is: once you penetrate into the deeper levels of the "machinery", everything you can ever perceive, experience or directly know still always appear on the "screen" (in the "space") of your awareness, so you simply expand the space into the layers that have been previously unconscious. But you still can not "penetrate" beyond the screen/space of your awareness (because it is not possible to experience anything that you would not be aware of, anything "beyond" the space of your direct awareness).

So we are back to corner 1: many meditative and spiritual practices of many traditions have been doing exactly the same: they expand the limits of our awareness into higher/lower realms of our consciousness machinery. Yet, you claim that your level of cognition is by far higher than that of others, that you are far ahead of all other traditions and are able to penetrate into much higher/deeper levels of cognition and attain the knowledge of higher-level truths not available to practitioners of other paths. Most content of your posts is targeted do demean the practices and spiritual experiences of other traditions (Eastern in particular) or NDE experiencers, and demonstrate that the level of "high-cognition" that you attained following the path of Anthroposophy is far superior to those. And this superiority claim this the real problem of your spiritual science.

If you want to see superiority go read, for example, Anna Hayes. She has been chosen by the Galactic Federation of Free Worlds to be their (only) speaker on our planet. Now they transmit through her the Freedom Teachings(tm). If you want to verify any of these for yourself you don't have much to do except send your plea to the Galactic Federation so you can be considered for personal audience.

Compare this with a body of work where large part is nothing but descriptions how each one of us can attain to the facts of the deeper strata of reality. It happens not by seeing visions or hearing voices but by being fully consciously active within these deeper worlds. You say "so you simply expand the space into the layers that have been previously unconscious". The fact that you say "simply", simply shows that you conceive of nothing but Freudian psychoanalysis, where previously unconscious things precipitate as thoughts in the intellect. If this expansion was conceived for what it is, then there wouldn't be any doubt about the reality of the etheric and astral body, the soul organs (chakras) and many other things. Because when we "simply" expand into the depths of our being, the unconscious layers are not "simply" thoughts of the intellect seen on the sensory screen but soul and spirit reality on the 'subharmonics' of which our intellect lives.

The finer structures of man were not invented by the West, they were known by the ancient Hindus millennia ago. The difference is that today we can not only know of them as externally revealed imaginative pictures but we can trace how our spiritual activity is being shaped by them and how we in turn are only now beginning to consciously attune them.

I've given many examples for the type of meditation that makes this possible. If they were at least partly understood it wouldn't occur to one to say that the same these things were practiced by all traditions in all ages.

And once again - all this is not to claim superiority. I would accept to be accused of the latter if I was claiming that I possess such and such abilities and no one else can have them. But practically every my post here is giving in one way or another details on how to approach if not the higher states, then at least the understanding of man's higher nature. I don't really understand (actually I do but that's how the saying goes) how can you protest that Western esoterism claims to have attained to deeper realm of cognition, when you don't allow yourself to approach even the most elementary threshold of that realm - livingly experienced thinking - in the way described in PoF. If you do that it'll also be glaringly clear that the method of intensifying and focusing of the thinking activity of the "I" is nothing like the passive and detached contemplation of floating thoughts that come and go by themselves, practiced by pre-Christian time traditions.

[AshvinP]

So anyway, we are going in circles here as usual. But I'm curious: out of 250 member of the forum and after huge volumes of topics, materials and posts produced by Cleric and Ashvin over the last 6 months, how many members would actually subscribe to the Cleric-Ashvin version of spiritual science?
Those who would subscribe please vote "yes" below and briefly explain your reasons.

Guess I should have activated the 'poll' function

For the record, my answer would be yes and no, as with just about every model delineating metaphysical/cosmological models I've investigated, BK's, Gebser's, Wilber's, Plotinus', Whitehead's, Aurobindo's, Vedanta, Kashmir Shaivism, Tibetan Buddhism, Aztec cosmology, the Seth books, and more, there are some aspects of Steiner's ideas, which are the basis of Ashvin/Clerics ideas, that I resonate with, and some that I don't. Indeed, of the vast volumes of things he has written and lectured about, covering a multifarious range of topics, it would be impossible that he wasn't wrong about some of it. And even that which I resonate with, I still consider provisional, pending further developments, but he's no exception in that regard.

This is true, Dana. And just so we are all clear, neither of us have ever suggested Steiner is 100% right about everything he has written and lectured.


viewtopic.php?p=8109#p8109

Let's be clear that no one here is doing Steiner-overlord cult. There are mistakes that Steiner did. He was human.

The first thing to realize is that higher cognition is nothing like the fantasized mystical enlightenment. These concepts have become so twisted in popular culture that we'll suffer from these prejudices for a long time. The common prejudice is that once someone becomes 'enlightened' suddenly all secrets of the Universe lie open before him. This idea is one of the greatest hinderances for true higher development. It makes one think that it's all about some special spiritual 'hack', to tap into the Universal database. Nothing can be further from the truth. If an illiterate man enters the Library of Alexandria, what would he behold? Paper and ink in wonderful shapes. That's all. It's the greatest prejudice that this man could sit all day with eyes closed and legs crossed in the middle of the library and one day, the system will be hacked, and suddenly he'll understand every book. This is nothing but spiritual naivety, which unfortunately has very serious paralyzing effect on proper spiritual development. To understand the books in the library, not only we must first learn to read, but then we have to wrestle our way through the books and develop the concepts communicated there. This is the last thing that modern 'spiritualists' want to hear - that there's a long and difficult path, where we have to literally struggle for the forging of every concept and idea.

PS - Starting this thread was a great idea. Just in the process of re-reading Cleric's posts as I reference them here, I feel like I have doubled my understanding of spiritual science, or at least I am perceiving points I already knew with much greater clarity and depth. This is to say that sometimes the most helpful thing is to keep reading and re-reading what we have already read. Especially when it comes to spiritual matters such as these, there is never-ending depth to the symbols (words, images, etc.) used. Our Thinking will naturally find that depth if we continue reading with open heart and mind.

[Eugene I]

Guess I should have activated the 'poll' function

For the record, my answer would be yes and no, as with just about every model delineating metaphysical/cosmological models I've investigated, BK's, Gebser's, Wilber's, Plotinus', Whitehead's, Aurobindo's, Vedanta, Kashmir Shaivism, Tibetan Buddhism, Aztec cosmology, the Seth books, and more, there are some aspects of Steiner's ideas, which are the basis of Ashvin/Clerics ideas, that I resonate with, and some that I don't. Indeed, of the vast volumes of things he has written and lectured about, covering a multifarious range of topics, it would be impossible that he wasn't wrong about some of it. And even that which I resonate with, I still consider provisional, pending further developments, but he's no exception in that regard.

Oh, me too, that's why I said that there are many valuable insights in Steiner's philosophy that we should pay attention to. But I was asking about fully subscribing to Cleric's formulation of it which includes all superiority claims with respect to other traditions that allegedly get it wrong and all claims of higher cognition knowledges (Zodiacs, Angelic hierarchies etc).

[AshvinP]

Guess I should have activated the 'poll' function

For the record, my answer would be yes and no, as with just about every model delineating metaphysical/cosmological models I've investigated, BK's, Gebser's, Wilber's, Plotinus', Whitehead's, Aurobindo's, Vedanta, Kashmir Shaivism, Tibetan Buddhism, Aztec cosmology, the Seth books, and more, there are some aspects of Steiner's ideas, which are the basis of Ashvin/Clerics ideas, that I resonate with, and some that I don't. Indeed, of the vast volumes of things he has written and lectured about, covering a multifarious range of topics, it would be impossible that he wasn't wrong about some of it. And even that which I resonate with, I still consider provisional, pending further developments, but he's no exception in that regard.

Oh, me too, that's why I said that there are many valuable insights in Steiner's philosophy that we should pay attention to. But I was asking about fully subscribing to Cleric's formulation of it which includes all superiority claims with respect to other traditions that allegedly get it wrong and all claims of higher cognition knowledges (Zodiacs, Angelic hierarchies etc).

What don't you get about the concept that others withhold judgment until they have investigated what they are judging? Even I have no idea whether all the claims about the Zodiac, angel hierarchies, etc. are correct. I don't even know what all the claims are yet, and I have been reading Steiner daily for quite a few months now. Reasonable people assess these things gradually and carefully, knowing no assessment is even possible without some effort and good will. Not everyone rushes to prejudicial judgment on everything they dislike as you do. The fact that you think this is even a reasonable "poll question" to ask is very telling. And I am also curious to hear your answer to PZ's question - why haven't you started reading PoF (which contains zero spiritual scientific claims) before passing judgment on all things related to spiritual evolutionary view of Steiner, Barfield, etc.?

[Eugene I]

And once again - all this is not to claim superiority. I would accept to be accused of the latter if I was claiming that I possess such and such abilities and no one else can have them. But practically every my post here is giving in one way or another details on how to approach if not the higher states, then at least the understanding of man's higher nature. I don't really understand (actually I do but that's how the saying goes) how can you protest that Western esoterism claims to have attained to deeper realm of cognition, when you don't allow yourself to approach even the most elementary threshold of that realm - livingly experienced thinking - in the way described in PoF. If you do that it'll also be glaringly clear that the method of intensifying and focusing of the thinking activity of the "I" is nothing like the passive and detached contemplation of floating thoughts that come and go by themselves, practiced by pre-Christian time traditions.

I already said that you misinterpret the Eastern traditions. They have a large variety of techniques, and "the passive and detached contemplation of floating thoughts that come and go by themselves" is only one of them that has its specific purposes and merits. Other techniques (such as Vipassana) do exactly what you said - focusing and insightfully analyzing the thinking activity, tracing the interconnectedness and origins of thoughts etc. Your understanding and experience with Eastern practices seems to be very shallow.

[AshvinP]

And once again - all this is not to claim superiority. I would accept to be accused of the latter if I was claiming that I possess such and such abilities and no one else can have them. But practically every my post here is giving in one way or another details on how to approach if not the higher states, then at least the understanding of man's higher nature. I don't really understand (actually I do but that's how the saying goes) how can you protest that Western esoterism claims to have attained to deeper realm of cognition, when you don't allow yourself to approach even the most elementary threshold of that realm - livingly experienced thinking - in the way described in PoF. If you do that it'll also be glaringly clear that the method of intensifying and focusing of the thinking activity of the "I" is nothing like the passive and detached contemplation of floating thoughts that come and go by themselves, practiced by pre-Christian time traditions.

I already said that you misinterpret the Eastern traditions. They have a large variety of techniques, and "the passive and detached contemplation of floating thoughts that come and go by themselves" is only one of them that has its specific purposes and merits. Other techniques (such as Vipassana) do exactly what you said - focusing and insightfully analyzing the thinking activity, tracing the interconnectedness and origins of thoughts etc. Your understanding and experience with Eastern practices seems to be very shallow.

If this is actually true (it isn't), then you will have no problem finding an ancient Eastern text (or even a modern one) which describes the layers of higher cognition and we can compare it to what comes from Western esoteric. Very simple. You should already have that at your disposal since you have asserted the above so many times and so confidently. There should also be an Eastern text in the modern age which describes phenomenology of Thinking like PoF, if all of that is known to Eastern mystical tradition. If you respond to this with anything short of those texts, then you are either lying or very misinformed (I am still suggesting the latter... but after a certain amount of intentional avoidances of corrective information the latter becomes the former).

[Eugene I]

Eugene,
Yes.
Not fully subscribed, yet seriously investigating.
Reasons
1. Makes sense of "personal" experiences, some intuitions and many concensus facts about the world. Those personal experiences are historic, some are ongoing and persistent.
2. From reviewing the argumentation, it's become clearer and clearer that cleverer minds than mine are unable or unwilling to put up a logical argument against the Cleric/Ashvin view of the world. I've been looking for that recently. This current appeal to democracy as well as previous posting of pictures of various eyes has caused me to infer this. Of course I could be persuaded otherwise. However, you'd have to actually read PoF and start with trying to dismantle the phenomenology described therein. I've managed it, others are doing it, yet you haven't. Why not?
PS - There's nothing lacking in Cleric's English writing.

OK, interesting.
So, when you exercise the higher cognition practice, do you actually cognate and directly perceive the Zodiacs, Chakras and communicate with beings of Angelic hierarchy described in the PoF? And if you do or would have such perceptions, would you believe that they represents actual objective realities rather than manifestations of your mind?

But you are right, why not? I'm actually going to take some time to read PoF without prejudice and apart from Ashvin-Cleric own interpretations of it.

[AshvinP]

Eugene,
Yes.
Not fully subscribed, yet seriously investigating.
Reasons
1. Makes sense of "personal" experiences, some intuitions and many concensus facts about the world. Those personal experiences are historic, some are ongoing and persistent.
2. From reviewing the argumentation, it's become clearer and clearer that cleverer minds than mine are unable or unwilling to put up a logical argument against the Cleric/Ashvin view of the world. I've been looking for that recently. This current appeal to democracy as well as previous posting of pictures of various eyes has caused me to infer this. Of course I could be persuaded otherwise. However, you'd have to actually read PoF and start with trying to dismantle the phenomenology described therein. I've managed it, others are doing it, yet you haven't. Why not?
PS - There's nothing lacking in Cleric's English writing.

OK, interesting.
So, when you exercise the higher cognition practice, do you actually cognate and directly perceive the Zodiacs, Chakras and communicate with beings of Angelic hierarchy described in the PoF? And if you do or would have such perceptions, would you believe that they represents actual objective realities rather than manifestations of your mind?

But you are right, why not? I'm actually going to take some time to read PoF without prejudice and apart from Ashvin-Cleric own interpretations of it.

Eugene, seriously, I am afraid you have lost all concrete connection with the meaning of "prejudice". Think about what you are asking PZ here. Think, reflect, reconsider, rethink, remember, and think some more. Suggesting that someone should determine what meaning they will give to experiences, i.e. dismiss all objective meaning (because "manifestations of your mind" is synonymous with "fantasy" for you), before they have even had the experiences is practically the dictionary definition of "prejudice". This one actually does amaze me, not just as the saying goes, but truly amazes and shocks me.

And, as I am recovering from that shock, I look back at your post and see the underlined words! you mean to tell me that after 6+ months of incessant bashing of Steiner and PoF and all things related to it, you have been going around this forum under the impression it speaks of "zodiacs, chakras, beings of the angelic hierarchy", despite the dozens of essays and posts from Cleric and myself explaining exactly what is contained in PoF (including the super long "Philosophy Unbound" thread), which you have been responding to this entire time? Seriously??

I'm afraid opening up PoF now to read it is complete waste of time for you. You need to get your head straight before doing or reading anything else. Get back to the real basics of logic and reason, which simply won't function for you under oppression of unexamined antipathies approaching sheer hatred of all things slightly related to Western spirituality.

[Eugene I]

Get back to the real basics of logic and reason.

Let's get back to logic and reason then. Here are some excerpts from Steiner's astrological works as an illustration of his spiritual science applied to practice. If you call this mumbo-jumbo "logic and reason" or "science", then our understanding of what logic, reason and science are is so fundamentally different that I doubt we can ever find any common ground. I do not see any logic and reason here, nor do I see any traces of science or philosophy, but only the products of Steiner's out-of-wack imagination.

A planet alternates between pralaya, a cosmic night, and manvantara, a cosmic day, just as we alternately pass through day and night. The planet passes through the signs of the zodiac during pralaya and manvantara; for that reason the twelve signs of the zodiac are counted twice, just as we also count two times twelve to equal twenty-four hours. The hours symbolize the signs of the zodiac.

The following will seem grotesque, even preposterous to those whose concepts are rooted in modern astronomy. Nevertheless it is a truth of cosmic evolution that when a planet like the earth has risen to sun-existence, when it has gradually achieved union with the Sun and even Sun-existence is transcended, there arises, as a still higher stage of evolution, something that in a certain way you can perceive in the heavens: there arises what we today call a `Zodiac' - it is the stage higher than that of the fixed star. Thus when beings are no longer restricted to the form of existence belonging to a fixed star but have expanded their evolution so powerfully that it extends beyond fixed stars and the fixed stars lie like bodies in it - then a higher stage is reached, the stage of Zodiac-existence. The forces which work from a Zodiac upon a planetary system themselves evolved, in former ages, in a planetary system and have advanced to the stage of a Zodiac

As far as human understanding goes, these forces began to descend during the Saturn-existence of our Earth and when Earth-existence proper had reached its middle point, the stage had arrived when they gradually began again to ascend. We have now passed beyond the middle point of our evolution, which fell in the middle of the Atlantean epoch.

When, therefore, you think of the whole Zodiac, you must picture that some of its forces are descending and some are ascending. We think of the forces which are now involved in the ascending line of evolution, collectively, as Aries, Taurus, Gemini, Cancer, Leo, Virgo, Libra - because they actually belong to these constellations. The descending forces comprised, approximately speaking, in the five constellations of Scorpio, Sagittarius, Capricorn, Aquarius, Pisces. Thus forces rain down from the Zodiac and ascend again: seven constellations of ascending, five descending forces. The ascending forces also correspond, in man, to the higher members of his being, to his higher, nobler attributes. The forces which are in the descending phase of evolution have first to pass through man and within him to attain to the stage at which they too can become ascending forces.

We now come to the earth, which represents the fourth stage of evolution. The three earlier stages are repeated: A Saturn is formed; a Sun is formed and leaves a Jupiter behind, which is a repetition of the Sun; a Moon is formed and a Mars is left behind. Then the earth emerges, as I have described it, severed from the sun and with the part that is separated off as lunar slag. You recall that the first beginnings of the ego took place in ancient Lemurian times when the present moon separated itself off from the earth.

Again, however, that could only happen because an impulse was given from the periphery that resulted in one rotation being completed. Sufficient maturity had now been reached to receive the first beginnings of the ego. This took place in ancient Lemurian time, and one pointed to the constellation of the Bull

I have only spoken about four names of the zodiac. They represent the four principal expressions of the Cherubim, but in reality each of these cherubic beings has to the right and left of it a kind of follower or companion. Thus we have twelve-fold forces in the Sun's periphery belonging to the realm of the Cherubim

And now we realize that the comparison with a clock is by no means far fetched. We relate the heavenly bodies of our solar system to the twelve constellations of the Zodiac, and we can find our bearings in the World of Spirit only by viewing it in such a way as to be able to assert that Spiritual Beings and events are realities; we compare the facts with the courses of the planets but the Spiritual Beings with the twelve constellations of the Zodiac. If we contemplate the planets in space and the zodiacal constellations, if we conceive the movements and relative positions of the planets in front of the various constellations to be manifestations of the activities of the Spiritual Beings and the twelve constellations of the Zodiac as the Spiritual Beings themselves, then it is possible to express by such an analogy what is happening in the World of Spirit.

We cannot conceive of any other plane in celestial space as being of like value with the Zodiac, any more than we could conceive the plane which divides us in two and creates our symmetry, as being placed at random just anywhere . . . In the same way we must imagine that in the organisation of the Universe it is a matter of consequence whether a thing is above or below the Zodiac . . . Now just as we can think of this plane . . . so we can also think of another at right angles to it. Let us think of a plane extending from the constellation Leo to that of Aquarius on the other side. Then we can go further and imagine a third plane at right angles again from this one, running from Taurus to Scorpio. We have now three planes at right angles to one another in Cosmic space.

If we think of the plane we have denoted as that of Will - the plane that namely separates us behind and before - we have the plane of the Zodiac itself.

“If we think of the plane running from Taurus to Scorpio, we have the plane of Thinking; that is, our thought plane would be coordinated to this plane. And the third plane would be that of Feeling.

Let us say, from the direction of the sign Cancer proceeds a certain kind of influence. This would be opposed by an influence from Capricorn, but the latter is taken away, is intercepted . . . the influence of Cancer is thereby in a sense left in me, put into my hands, as it were

Here is another Steiner's pearl on a different subject

“If the blue-eyed and blond-haired people were to die out, people would become
increasingly stupid unless they developed a kind of cleverness which is
independent of blondness. It is the blond hair which actually leads to
cleverness”

After reading this I changed my mind and not going to read PoF, I have better things to do in my life.

[AshvinP]

Get back to the real basics of logic and reason.

Let's get back to logic and reason then.

It's real simple, Eugene. As long as you keep obfuscating and lying about PoF, Steiner, Anthroposophy, spiritual science, Christianity, or anything else we are putting a lot of time and effort into writing about and bring attention to, out of your sheer bigotry and hatred, I will keep showing others in excruciating detail what you are doing. I am sure you do have better things to do with your life, so just go ahead and do them already. I know 100% there is intentional misrepresentation happening thanks to your recent slip-ups while commenting. I could try ignoring your comments completely, but I know how that plays out as well - the threads get increasingly sidetracked into irrelevant nonsense as you pretend to be reading Cleric's comments (or PoF) while you grab a canned response out of a hat. It's actually a neat trick, because it's not easy for most to see what you are doing. That is why I am pointing it out so explicitly now. Just so it's even more clear to others, let's see some of your direct comments on PoF without having the slightest clue what it actually is, which means you were not reading most of our posts or even a summary of the book on Google (each "..." is a new comment):

There is no need to ignore anything in that richness. I'm not suggesting to neglect even a tiny bits from the Steiner's/yours PoF, it is all great and a way to go. I am ONLY saying that the overall encompassing knowledge of Reality can be only further enriched (without ignoring or neglecting anything) by also adding to that PoF the non-dual experiential and intuitive insight into the Oneness of Consciousness in its formless aspects (which comes from the Eastern traditions).
...
So the Unity has two facets/aspects: the Unity in the ideal content (as you say), and the Unity in conscious Experiencing. The PoF approach emphasizes the former but ignores the latter, the Eastern traditions do the opposite.
...
I think John Vervaeke articulates the Hegel's philosophy (which is really the fundamentals of the Steiner's POF)
...
I don't propose anything, I was asking what POF proposes for an explanation of why the patterns exactly follow the Schrodinger equation.
...
This idea claims that PoF is by definition superior and exclusive to any alternative worldviews, so the exclusivity and superiority claim is a built-in feature of this philosophy.

Dana - I know what you are thinking now, and I will obviously play by your rules here. But I don't know what you expect me to do when Eugene pulls these stunts on every topic related to spiritual science, or actually any topic related to "Thinking", over and over again.