Practicing Dance Moves in the Shadows

Any topics primarily focused on metaphysics can be discussed here, in a generally casual way, where conversations may take unexpected turns.

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findingblanks
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Practicing Dance Moves in the Shadows

Post by findingblanks »

We all may experience very kinds of 'spillover' conversationally or intellectually. This space can be a place that is only for those who would want to allow that kind of thing. I'm all for it.

Soul has a very specific stance/orientation/attitude/reaction towards me when I mention Steiner but don't quote Steiner. And I often do that. But he is cherry picking because I quoted Steiner probably over three dozen times in the conversation in which Steiner became the main topic. I don't get credit for the quotes :)

Seriously, though it is a fact that when I think about and talk about Steiner, there are things I remember very well (from over the last 25 years of my study) and there are things that I remember a specific nugget but don't remember which book (I've owned over 200 compilations of lectures and books from Steiner over the last 25 years), and there are elements that are very murky and vague.

I think this is natural. I know for a fact that it doesn't annoy everybody. But I also know for a fact that this does annoy some. And Soul probably would say he isn't annoyed. He might say he is just 'aware' that there are times I mention Steiner but don't know which book contains the content I'm referring to.

Soul said:

"I do have to wonder about why you resort to all these cryptic references. First we have those unprovided, unspecified points that Steiner told with French physicists. Then the mention of twin psychics who shall remain nameless, even though there's a good chance we know who they are, in which case why the suspense? Now there's a book that you feel is a must-read for m_m_m, which you want to share with him, while keeping it from the rest of us. Clearly this is a deliberate pattern, the intention of which seems highly dubious. Is there some reasonable point to it that I'm missing?"

I fully understand why there are some Steiner online groups in which there are very focused rules about the conversation. They pick a lecture cycle or topic and they say you can not comment on anything you think Steiner talked about unless you have the quotations at hand.

I respect that!

But unless I missed something, this discussion group is like people enjoying time on a porch and chatting. In fact, Soul has an entire category of conversations that do have strict rules of engagement.

Soul may or may not know that Steiner never stopped lecturing from about the year 1899 onwards. I bet Soul might not know that Anthroposophical Press often changes not only the name of the lecture cycles, but changes the lectures themselves; they will decide that a batch of other lectures can be sold and have a theme that people will find interesting.

And, yes, they sometimes yank certain lectures out of the public view. LIke lecture GA174b.

But here's the fun part.

Imagine you have spent twenty years reading the novels of a writer who wrote on average about five 500 page novels a year. You have loved these novels. They are filled with a massive ammount of intertwining ideas and stories and theories.

You are in a discussion with other people who have some connection to some of these novels.

You say, "Oh, I was in a book club 18 years ago where we compared the story-lines about molecule-failure with the story lines dealing with the lost keys of Onion. It was interesting because I remember you could start to see how the author was able to balance the descriptions in a way that really drew out the more dynamic aspects of each. It was cool. Anybody come across stuff related to that?"

It is hard for me to imagine a group of people who are simply enjoying a discussion would say be upset if you couldn't remember which of the 200 novels these themes were in. Or that your attempts to find out would elicit eye rolls because you haven't yet provided the page numbers.

But Shadow Dancing is very important. So when your friends roll their eyes. Or when you hear their voice get tight. Or when they command you to do something right after you bring up a topic or respond to something they wonderfully said..... don't just get annoyed. It's fine to get annoyed, sure. But you can also recognize that despite what they say on the surface (You should converse differently...Tell us which pages....Oh, sure, you can't remember...) they are also being very vulnerable and asking you to notice what is behind the words.

You might respond to their reactions in a way that is annoying. But maybe you can also somehow express that you understand their annoyance at you.

Sure, most of them won't care about this. They will insist that their surface communication is all they care about. And you can probably assure them that the same goes for you, it's just that your surface include a tiny bit of the depth of the dance itself.

And that you (I) can't dance very well.

To those who send me private messages, please consider now and then letting the wider group know why you appreciate this weird stuff. Now and then one of you pipes up and I think it is helpful even beyond my little old worried ego :)

I imagine we are about to hear crickets!
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AshvinP
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Re: Practicing Dance Moves in the Shadows

Post by AshvinP »

findingblanks wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:46 pm Soul said:

"I do have to wonder about why you resort to all these cryptic references. First we have those unprovided, unspecified points that Steiner told with French physicists. Then the mention of twin psychics who shall remain nameless, even though there's a good chance we know who they are, in which case why the suspense? Now there's a book that you feel is a must-read for m_m_m, which you want to share with him, while keeping it from the rest of us. Clearly this is a deliberate pattern, the intention of which seems highly dubious. Is there some reasonable point to it that I'm missing?"

I fully understand why there are some Steiner online groups in which there are very focused rules about the conversation. They pick a lecture cycle or topic and they say you can not comment on anything you think Steiner talked about unless you have the quotations at hand.

I respect that!

But unless I missed something, this discussion group is like people enjoying time on a porch and chatting. In fact, Soul has an entire category of conversations that do have strict rules of engagement.

Soul may or may not know that Steiner never stopped lecturing from about the year 1899 onwards. I bet Soul might not know that Anthroposophical Press often changes not only the name of the lecture cycles, but changes the lectures themselves; they will decide that a batch of other lectures can be sold and have a theme that people will find interesting.

And, yes, they sometimes yank certain lectures out of the public view. LIke lecture GA174b.

But here's the fun part.

Imagine you have spent twenty years reading the novels of a writer who wrote on average about five 500 page novels a year. You have loved these novels. They are filled with a massive ammount of intertwining ideas and stories and theories.

You are in a discussion with other people who have some connection to some of these novels.

You say, "Oh, I was in a book club 18 years ago where we compared the story-lines about molecule-failure with the story lines dealing with the lost keys of Onion. It was interesting because I remember you could start to see how the author was able to balance the descriptions in a way that really drew out the more dynamic aspects of each. It was cool. Anybody come across stuff related to that?"

It is hard for me to imagine a group of people who are simply enjoying a discussion would say be upset if you couldn't remember which of the 200 novels these themes were in. Or that your attempts to find out would elicit eye rolls because you haven't yet provided the page numbers.

But Shadow Dancing is very important. So when your friends roll their eyes. Or when you hear their voice get tight. Or when they command you to do something right after you bring up a topic or respond to something they wonderfully said..... don't just get annoyed. It's fine to get annoyed, sure. But you can also recognize that despite what they say on the surface (You should converse differently...Tell us which pages....Oh, sure, you can't remember...) they are also being very vulnerable and asking you to notice what is behind the words.

You might respond to their reactions in a way that is annoying. But maybe you can also somehow express that you understand their annoyance at you.

Sure, most of them won't care about this. They will insist that their surface communication is all they care about. And you can probably assure them that the same goes for you, it's just that your surface include a tiny bit of the depth of the dance itself.

And that you (I) can't dance very well.

To those who send me private messages, please consider now and then letting the wider group know why you appreciate this weird stuff. Now and then one of you pipes up and I think it is helpful even beyond my little old worried ego :)

I imagine we are about to hear crickets!

Oh...my....dear....God...

I don't know why, but I started reading your post thinking, "finally... FB may actually be quoting Steiner as support for some of those numerous claims he made in the last two days...". And then, wham!, I remembered how absolutely silly it was for me to expect that. Your post trying to address your own "shadow dancing" was yet more shadow dancing and a defense of "shadow dancing", without any such quotes! Only you, FB, only you.

I think you know exactly why, specifically, I am asking for you to produce quotes... because I know very well that your interpretations, if we can call them that, are flat out wrong and, if we have the clear text here for all to see, Cleric or myself can point out to others exactly how and why it is flat out wrong. Cleric and myself have no problem producing such quotes to support our representations of Steiner... most of the lectures are available online for free at the archive, and if you have a good memory of what you are thinking he said, as you claim to do, then you can query those search terms by title, keywords, or context. Every time I am trying to remember something Steiner wrote or said, that's what I do, and I always manage to find what I am looking for (assuming that I was correct he actually wrote or said it), especially since he makes the same points in multiple different places.

Yet for all your files, email communications, websites, reading groups, study materials, etc. stored up over the years, you cannot produce the simple quotes from Steiner which illustrate what you are claiming. Nothing about "French physicists" and "magnetic fields". Nothing about the supposed "dualisms" you find in his thought. Nothing about nothing. When will you stop this charade? All you have to do is (a) stop misrepresenting Steiner or throwing out baseless interpretations of him, OR (b) come up with something, anything, which supports your interpretations. You and I both know (b) is not an option, though, so I really hope you choose (a) and move on to whatever other philosophical topics you want to discuss. Let's see if this is finally enough to get something useful and of concrete substance from you on Steiner... or, crickets.
Last edited by AshvinP on Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
“It is your presumption that freedom is something which you already possess that ensures that you will remain in chains."
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Soul_of_Shu
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Re: Practicing Dance Moves in the Shadows

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

findingblanks wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:46 pmTo those who send me private messages, please consider now and then letting the wider group know why you appreciate this weird stuff. Now and then one of you pipes up and I think it is helpful even beyond my little old worried ego :)
I'm also beginning to wonder if your choice of forum name isn't a typo, and should actually be firingblanks :roll:
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
findingblanks
Posts: 502
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:36 am

Re: Practicing Dance Moves in the Shadows

Post by findingblanks »

Yeah, I fired blanks Soul. But that's not too bad.
findingblanks
Posts: 502
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:36 am

Re: Practicing Dance Moves in the Shadows

Post by findingblanks »

I said "practicing", friends!

Anyway, what I know about Soul is that he's super smart and great at managing this site. I know I sometimes annoy him. And I actually feel bad I don't remember which lectures specifically were the ones to the French dudes. I'll see if a google search can help me but I figure Soul already tried that...hold on................................I found nothing. I searched under, "Rudolf Steiner lectures and French" and a few variations of that.

I just wrote an email to the head librarian at the Rudolf Steiner library. I will let you know how they respond.

I'm not a great dancer but I can tell when people are annoyed a bit at me and a bit at themselves.
findingblanks
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Re: Practicing Dance Moves in the Shadows

Post by findingblanks »

Now, I hope somebody can help me with the following. I was going through my old electronic files looking for the lcture to the French scientists and I came across the following clipping of text from a Steiner lecture:

"The fact is that what France is doing today is like the last throes or the last frantic outburst of a declining nation, a nation that is fading out of earth evolution, only in history these last throes last a long time. A spiritual view of European history shows this aspect very clearly, of course. The French character is the first vanguard of decadent Rome, the declining Romanic nations of Europe…

Now this whole phenomenon of decadence in French national culture is not least visible in their language. The French language is one of those languages one can learn in Europe at present which, if I may put it like this, drives man’s soul to the very surface of his being. It would be the one in which, to put it paradoxically, it is easiest to tell lies honestly. It lends itself most easily to telling lies candidly and honestly, because it is no longer connected with man’s inner nature. It is spoken entirely on the human being’s surface.

This determines the soul attitude of both the French language and the French character. The soul bearing is such that the French language takes command of the soul. Whilst with a German person the inner configuration of the language puts the soul under the domination of the will element, the moment you speak French it has a numbing effect and takes over command. It is a language that violates the soul and therefore makes it hollow, and thus under the influence of the language, French culture hollows one out. Anyone who has a feeling for these things can always sense that in fact no soul is forthcoming in the French character..."


Now, look, I have no doubt that many people who respect Steiner believe that they have empirical evidence that validates his claims. But before I point out what might be somewhat problematic with such a methodology, I wonder if anybody knows which lecture this was specifically. My hunch is that it wasn't a lecture to the French people. It sounds like one of the lectures he gave to teachers. Those were my favorites for the informal candor many of them took on....
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AshvinP
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Re: Practicing Dance Moves in the Shadows

Post by AshvinP »

findingblanks wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:24 am I said "practicing", friends!

Anyway, what I know about Soul is that he's super smart and great at managing this site. I know I sometimes annoy him. And I actually feel bad I don't remember which lectures specifically were the ones to the French dudes. I'll see if a google search can help me but I figure Soul already tried that...hold on................................I found nothing. I searched under, "Rudolf Steiner lectures and French" and a few variations of that.

I just wrote an email to the head librarian at the Rudolf Steiner library. I will let you know how they respond.

I'm not a great dancer but I can tell when people are annoyed a bit at me and a bit at themselves.

This below is not the kind of thing which cannot be found if it actually exists. It is not the kind of thing requiring the summoning of head librarians.

FB wrote:It made me much more sensitive to when Steiner slides into various kinds of subtle dualism. Steiner wasn't a dualists but like all actual humans he was susceptible to falling back into the more subtle aspects of it now and then.

Since you are already so sensitive to these "subtle dualisms", it should be astoundingly easy for you to find an example in one of his many books and lectures and quote it here. I will wait patiently, don't worry.
“It is your presumption that freedom is something which you already possess that ensures that you will remain in chains."
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AshvinP
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Re: Practicing Dance Moves in the Shadows

Post by AshvinP »

findingblanks wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:43 am Now, look, I have no doubt that many people who respect Steiner believe that they have empirical evidence that validates his claims. But before I point out what might be somewhat problematic with such a methodology, I wonder if anybody knows which lecture this was specifically. My hunch is that it wasn't a lecture to the French people. It sounds like one of the lectures he gave to teachers. Those were my favorites for the informal candor many of them took on....

After searching for multiple different queries of terms in that excerpt, I found nothing in the archive. But I did come across this, which is pretty fascinating in and of itself.


https://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA287 ... 18p01.html
Steiner wrote:This has constantly to be stressed at the present time, because everybody wants to pass judgment on everything ignoring, of course, facts which can be understood only by dint of effort. But I advise anyone who wants to gain insight into the very distinctive form in which the Greek element flows into French culture, to study how the Oedipus theme has found its way into French poetry; how Sophocles' Oedipus lives again in the Oedipus of Corneille and also in that of Voltaire. What I have just said can be confirmed down to the very details. It can be clearly discerned in these particular examples, although many could be quoted.

It is, of course, a fact that most editions of Corneille's works no longer include the tragedy of Oedipus and that in those of Voltaire practically no value is attached to this work. But study will show that the new form into which the Oedipus theme has been cast by Corneille and Voltaire is a sign of the revival of the Greek age in French culture.

It will be found that because Greco-Latin culture stands at the dividing line between the age of ancient clairvoyance and the modern age, the element that in Sophocles is received, as it were, out of the spiritual world in the age of ancient Greek heroic culture, has become in Corneille and Voltaire entirely an affair of the human soul itself. Whether Sophocles' Oedipus is more to one's liking than the form given to the story later on must be altogether disregarded; attention must be concentrated upon the trans formation that took place, bearing in mind that this transformation consists in the Oedipus story being reborn entirely out of the personal soul-nature of man.

I said that all antipathy must be put aside. This done, it can be demonstrated quite objectively that what in Sophocles is linked with the figure of Oedipus: is woven into a human-universal destiny: such as can be indicated only by words as momentous me those with which Goethe describes such a destiny: that it exalts man in that it crushes him.

The breath of magic emanating from Sophocles' Oedipus is due to the fact that in this drama the spiritual worlds which guide the destiny of peoples can be sensed: worlds which play into human destiny in a way that men are unable to fathom; therefore what the gods allow to befall may appear to be the most cruel injustice. One can conceive how every Greek was aware of the inscrutability of the fate in which the actual will of the gods was contained. The Greek felt: Yes: this is how the gods deal with man; their will remains inscrutable; fate can befall everyone as it befell Oedipus, but it remains inscrutable.

The breath of magic emanating from Sophocles' tragedy of Oedipus has been drawn right into the sphere of the personal by Corneille and Voltaire: quite as a matter of course. The transition is made in Corneille; in Voltaire the situation has become quite distinct. In Voltaire's Oedipus there is a figure who would be quite unthinkable in ancient drama. This is Philoctetus, the family friend who makes the conjugal alliance into a triangle. Jocaste was already acquainted with Philoctetus before her first marriage; the situation continues until she is widowed and then she marries Oedipus, her own son. These are personal relationships of soul which would be unthinkable in an ancient drama.

But we can go farther; we can try to understand what streamed through the souls of the great French poets, and then we shall find how the Greek element was absorbed. This is clearly expressed, not only in French poetry itself, but also in the theory of poetry. Do we not know how Lessing studied the way in which, as part of its theory, French poetry had taken over from Aristotle, the great Greek philosopher, the principle of the unity of Time, Place and Action, which is a feature in the works of Corneille, Racine and Voltaire?

French classic poetry can be understood only by those who perceive how the spirit of ancient Greece shines into it. And if we want to find concrete evidence in French culture of the indications given by spiritual science, we can do so by asking: Where does the essence of this French culture appear in its most brilliant form? Where is it unparalleled? Where does it reach its highest peak?

To answer this question rightly calls for great objectivity, and objectivity does not come easily to modern man, especially in our days. Nevertheless, for those who look at thinge objectively, the highest peak of French culture is to be found in the works of Molière. However strongly any culture may believe that what Molière achieved could be equalled among a people of a different character — leaving aside what has been achieved by Corneille and Racine, or also by more modern French culture — it would be foolish to assert that the particular perfection to be found in Molière has ever again been reached. In a different sphere there has been equal perfection, admittedly — perhaps even greater perfection — but not in this particular sphere. It would be a fallacy to maintain that Molière's essential quality. — born as it was from the Intellectual Soul or Mind Soul could be achieved again or even an echo of it. Molière represents the highest peak of the culture that is born out of the Intellectual Soul.

Molière's comedy is comedy per se, comedy in its very essence. It cannot be understood inwardly, spiritually, unless one realises that the Intellectual Soul is dominant in it, in a way in which this uniqueness could never be repeated. For everything that arises in the evolution of humanity emerges at a characteristic point once and once only. Just as in one life the age of 18 or 25 is never reached twice, it is equally impossible for mankind to produce twice over that which reached the degree of finish it did in the personality of Molière.
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Re: Practicing Dance Moves in the Shadows

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

Does anyone know if Steiner actually slept?
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
findingblanks
Posts: 502
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:36 am

Re: Practicing Dance Moves in the Shadows

Post by findingblanks »

"Does anyone know if Steiner actually slept?"

You are going to hate/scold/doubt me for this, but I feel it is at least okay in this dancing of shadow's context:

There is an account from somebody who knew Steiner personally that Steiner had mentioned teaching this person a meditation that would allow this person to only need a couple of hours of sleep per night. But Steiner said the downside is that effectively accomplishing the meditation would most likely not be possible for the person.

I am 66% certain that the person was Fredrich Rittlemyer.
And I am 51% certain that it was from the book "Rudolf Steiner Enters My Life."
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