Patterns and Meaning in Music

[Soul_of_Shu]

I've been thinking of starting a topic on the connection between music and metaphysics/ontology, whether as being immanent and integral, or more contingent, but I've been struggling to actually articulate the basis for a discussion. Then with the usual synchronicity, inspired by some recent comments about music by Jeffrey and Ashvin in the 'Criticism' thread, this interview popped up in the youtube feed, which may well serve as an initiator of that discussion better than any articulation that I can offer ... or not as the case may be, but surely worth a try ...

[Soul_of_Shu]

Also as a reference point for a discussion, I should include here links to Ashvin's essays on Soulful Aesthetics: Music of the Spheres , Part 1 and Part 2

[AshvinP]

Also as a reference point for a discussion, I should include here links to Ashvin's essays on Soulful Aesthetics: Music of the Spheres , Part 1 and Part 2

Thanks, Dana. I will say that I will probably end up updating those essays soon, as I feel now they were made too complex and jumped around too much. But the core arguments made still hold. Music is perhaps the most important aesthetic to contemplate when attempting to approach and get 'underneath' the reflection of our own creative cognitive activity. Schop was correct when he intuited that it provides most direct access to the noumenal realm, as far as aesthetics go. A core reason for this is because it is, by its very essence, a direct reflection of temporal structure, while other aesthetics are veiled from those phenomena by at least one additional layer of representational symbols. I also tried to briefly highlight that in essay on The Liminal Spaces of Perception, and Cleric details the general importance of temporal phenomena in his essay on the Time-Consciousness Spectrum.

I look forward to additional discussion of the musical aesthetic!

What was it that nature would say? Was there no meaning in the live repose of the valley behind the mill, and which Homer or Shakespeare could not reform for me in words? The leafless trees become spires of flame in the sunset, with the blue east for their background, and the stars of the dead calices of flowers, and every withered stem and stubble rimed with frost, contribute something to the mute music.
...
The new virtue which constitutes a thing beautiful is a certain cosmical quality, or, a power to suggest relation to the whole world, and so lift the object out of a pitiful individuality. Every natural feature—sea, sky, rainbow, flowers, musical tone—has in it somewhat which is not private, but universal, speaks of that central benefit which is the soul of Nature, and thereby is beautiful.

- Ralph Waldo Emerson, Nature (1836)

[Martin_]

A good piece of music is like a fractal, it keeps you interested, and you keep going back for more, and the more you listen to it the more you find.

It is a dance between the expected and the unexpected.

Eventually, you might know it (the piece of music) all, but it still remains a place of wonder, unique Meaning, and state if Mind, worthy if revisiting.

[Martin_]

Having listened trough the video, I'm reminded of how important cultural context is when interpreting / experiencing music.

[Soul_of_Shu]

I'm curious, does anyone know of an example in nature of what we would recognize as music that is not being expressed through what we would recognize as a conscious agent?

[Lou Gold]

I'm curious, does anyone know of an example in nature of what we would recognize as music that is not being expressed through what we would recognize as a conscious agent?

Thank you Dana for a perfectly synchronous question.

For myself, presently living in Hawaii, it would be the sound of the waves of the sea. In Portuguese, this sound of the waves is expressed as chuê chuá and is considered as carrying a profound healing power. Here is a healing song from a Brazilian Santo Daime healing ritual, which presents a 'call' or chamado calling forth the healing powers of the sea ...



Yes, this raises the question of what is meant by a "conscious agent"? Of course, under the dominant anthropocentric modern basis, "conscious agent" seems to imply human-like. But in the true non-pejorative animistic indigenous view, the sea, the mountains, the earth are beings or subjects with whom to relate. This de-objectification is a re-sacralization, a "subjectivism" and "quality-ness" that comprises to my mind and experience a most worthy endeavor.

[Martin_]

I was going to suggest flowing/moving water as well. In order for something to be percieved as Music, (and not just sounds) there needs to be some kind of rhythmic predicatability, coupled with small surprises here and there. Flowing water, or oceanic waves, whch is a deterministic chaotic system (at east when there is turbulence involved), fits the bill well.

Also, as Lou pointed out, if we interpret "conscious sgent" strictly, in my case according to BK; wer're not left with much to choose from: falling rocks, blowing wind, and moving water in any of its forms is pretty much it. Oh, one more: The crackling of the fire. That's the 4 elements, btw.

[AshvinP]

I'm curious, does anyone know of an example in nature of what we would recognize as music that is not being expressed through what we would recognize as a conscious agent?

We practically don't re-cognize anything as a conscious agent, so yes I can think of many examples : ) Pythagoras spoke of the music in the movement of the celestial spheres. This is literally true in my view.

But I suspect you are trying to highlight that ideational agency underlies all such Macrocosmic music, as it does microcosmic human music, and that is exactly right. Lou and Martin don't realize they have created dualism of Nature and man above. The human ideational spirit is not other than Nature and, as the Emerson quote on the other thread suggested, is a microcosmic expression of Nature's evolution into self-awareness. Humanity is the stage in Nature's evolution in which it awakens to itself and comes to know, appreciate, and make consciously manifest its heavenly choir.

[Soul_of_Shu]

For myself, presently living in Hawaii, it would be the sound of the waves of the sea.

I was going to suggest flowing/moving water as well. In order for something to be percieved as Music, (and not just sounds) there needs to be some kind of rhythmic predicatability, coupled with small surprises here and there. Flowing water, or oceanic waves, whch is a deterministic chaotic system (at east when there is turbulence involved), fits the bill well.

Also, as Lou pointed out, if we interpret "conscious agent" strictly, in my case according to BK; we're not left with much to choose from: falling rocks, blowing wind, and moving water in any of its forms is pretty much it. Oh, one more: The crackling of the fire. That's the 4 elements, btw.

I can relate to that, although, while Poseidon has the rhythmic percussion patterns down, the melodic and harmonic patterns remain a work in progress