Rudolf Steiner's Fifth Gospel by John David Ebert

[Lou Gold]

Lou wrote:

I must honestly say that, given the damage that has also been technologically wrought upon the earth, I'm not sure the benefits were worth the costs. However, given that the past is past and the future beckons better, I'm pleased that the techno-now made the gathering possible. BTW, the Kogi chose to leave their tribal isolation only because the 'Younger Brother' tribe was wreaking havoc and not to overcome tribal divisions, which they began to do long ago.

Ashvin wrote:

Right, and if you are not sure, then there is a real possibility that it was worth it and we cannot grasp exactly why or how, either due to some fundamental 'gap' between phenomenon and noumenon and/or some deeply ingrained unwillingness on our part in the modern era which still lingers around us. And the question still remains, given the past is the past, and it seems one of our fundamental tasks is to transform the future into the present, are we participating in a purposeful metaphysical order, as Cleric describes in his last post, or a random and uncaring universe? If it is the former, then the real possibility that the benefits were worth it becomes much more likely to be true.

Hehe, forever adversarial, by nature, I guess. I'll leave the big speculations to those knowledgeable about the TRUTH. As a new kid on the philosophy block I'm just gonna take my advice to hold hands, pay attention and, above all, work/play to respect the possibility of co-creating a future beneficial for all beings.

[Lou Gold]

Thank you, Lou

I understand your position now. I'm not going to unleash anything ) It's more than enough that we have the opportunity here to share our views.

BTW, I tend to agree with your last paragraph to David:

The big difference in our time is, that man has reached a level of self-awareness at which it no longer makes any sense to be guided externally. This would mean that we should stay at our current level of consciousness - having sensory perceptions and thinking about them with our self-conscious "I". The problem of death will forever remain unresolved. Humans must investigate the spiritual structure of themselves and the Cosmos and guide themselves into the next period, which will resolve the problem of death that is currently splitting our reality in two. Not by developing a lofty intellectual theory of the beyond but by bridging the stages of consciousness that death separates.

There are many shamanic rituals for "bridging the stages of consciousness that death separates." The use of ayahuasca and/or entheogenic plants is receiving great attention these days although indigenous rituals include many bridging ways to cross the boundary that so-called 'life/death' separates. This is why so many moderns are seeking out shamanic ways, fashioned for an ancient/future mix appropriate for our times. It's very much a work in process.

[Cleric K]

There are many shamanic rituals for "bridging the stages of consciousness that death separates." The use of ayahuasca and/or entheogenic plants is receiving great attention these days although indigenous rituals include many bridging ways to cross the boundary that so-called 'life/death' separates. This is why so many moderns are seeking out shamanic ways, fashioned for an ancient/future mix appropriate for our times. It's very much a work in process.

Disclaimer: not trying to change anyone's mind. Only presenting yet another perspective - food for thought.

Psychedelics certainly receive a lot of attention these days and it is only a natural symptom of the times. More and more people have the feeling that we have already "hit the ceiling", as far as the intellectual mode of consciousness goes. Exploration of alternative states of consciousness is inevitable. The method of fully conscious crossing of the threshold of death differs from practically all methods of inducing altered states. And this is not surprising. All methods of inducing AsC depend on suppressing the "I". Modern Initiation goes through the pinhole of the "I", or more precisely the pinhole of fully conscious spiritual activity.

We can understand this when we take into account the fact that, no matter how profound the altered state is, in the final run the thinking ego has the final word. The experiences themselves don't force some "truth" on us. They stand for what they are. It is our thinking being that decides how to interpret them and if this interpretation will motivate us to change our ways. Otherwise, how can we understand someone like Anil Seth, who is clearly quite experienced in psychedelics but still sees everything to be quite explainable through neuroscience?

What is called "ego death", "ego dissociation", etc. and considered the hallmark of great achievement by many psychonauts, is nothing but testimony that we have not developed our inner organism, such that we can cross the the threshold of death without losing self-consciousness.

This is a vast topic. Only indications can be given here. In the previous post was mentioned the question of sacrifice, death and resurrection. Psychedelics offer only death. Sacrifice implies fully conscious act - to leave the thinking ego behind voluntarily. We don't do that. The only voluntary act is to take the substance. From there one, the process forces us towards the threshold. We don't know resurrection either. If we are pushed too far, we simply disintegrate, the elemental beings that constitute our ordinary consciousness fly away. Upon returning we have a vague memory that something did happen but we simply cannot reconstruct it.

Eastern mysticism knows sacrifice and death. One walks voluntarily to the threshold. Death is experienced but then one stops there and contemplates the nothingness. There's no resurrection.

We are not saying here anything against shamanism or Eastern mysticism. These methods have been completely appropriate for their time. This was so because resurrection has not yet been available to humankind. Here again, these things can only make sense if we at least admit the possibility that humanity is evolving. Just as a child can not reproduce before a certain age, so there are certain stages of consciousness that were not yet reachable thousands of years ago. There are tons of important things to be said here, that will make this understandable but it will take a series of lectures. The point is that we should be observant of what makes its way into the development of humanity. Otherwise, we take ancient practices and apply them in today's context, while ignoring what has been added to man in the meantime. Whether we want it or not, man moves forward. The fierce avoidance of the "I" is just one such symptom, when taking ancient practices (for which the "I" was not at all a point of concern) and applying them in modern age. These practices cannot be applied in the same form because something new has appeared now, which was not present long ago - fully self-aware thinking consciousness, capable of saying "I" to itself. In order to restore the ancient forms of spirituality, this self-consciousness should be abolished. Ancient forms of spirituality see in the "I" the evil standing on the way.

Instead of abolishing it, the contemporary path of Initiation (which reflects the evolution of humanity at large, even if the general population is always lagging behind the Initiates) has integrated resurrection. Make no mistake - the intellectual self really dies and is left behind. It is too much dependent on the structures of the physical and etheric bodies. That's why it loses consciousness within the Astral (and every night while we sleep). But nevertheless, the Essential Being, is able to find its way within the Astral and even higher. This is what resurrects - the Essential Being, the Spirit, that animates the ordinary self, even if there this Being identifies with thinking. Within the Astral, the "I" resurrects as what has always been called in Eastern terms - Manas - or in modern terms - Spirit-Self. This is the first of three stages of the Higher Self - Manas, Buddhi, Atma. The ancient yogi could experience these three members as independent beings, shining within his atavistic clairvoyant consciousness. Today it is possible to experience something of these members from a first-person perspective, to experience something of their nature not externally but from their "I" point of view. To be sure these three members will be developed only in the far, far distant future. We have much work to do from the perspective of our ordinary self. But nevertheless, we can only know something about the direction this work should take, if we are able to die and resurrect the "I" within the perspective of the higher members. It could be said that in this way we can experience what form the future should take. These experiences turn into practical knowledge, that can turn into powerful moral impulses for furthering our evolution.

[Lou Gold]

are we participating in a purposeful metaphysical order ... or a random and uncaring universe?

In my view, it is the former and the purpose is to see the sacred in all paths of heart. My practical measure of whether a particular path is for me is if it increases my appreciation of the great diversity of paths, for if it does not, it will be a path toward separation.

[Lou Gold]

There are many shamanic rituals for "bridging the stages of consciousness that death separates." The use of ayahuasca and/or entheogenic plants is receiving great attention these days although indigenous rituals include many bridging ways to cross the boundary that so-called 'life/death' separates. This is why so many moderns are seeking out shamanic ways, fashioned for an ancient/future mix appropriate for our times. It's very much a work in process.

Disclaimer: not trying to change anyone's mind. Only presenting yet another perspective - food for thought.

Psychedelics certainly receive a lot of attention these days and it is only a natural symptom of the times. More and more people have the feeling that we have already "hit the ceiling", as far as the intellectual mode of consciousness goes. Exploration of alternative states of consciousness is inevitable. The method of fully conscious crossing of the threshold of death differs from practically all methods of inducing altered states. And this is not surprising. All methods of inducing AsC depend on suppressing the "I". Modern Initiation goes through the pinhole of the "I", or more precisely the pinhole of fully conscious spiritual activity.

We can understand this when we take into account the fact that, no matter how profound the altered state is, in the final run the thinking ego has the final word. The experiences themselves don't force some "truth" on us. They stand for what they are. It is our thinking being that decides how to interpret them and if this interpretation will motivate us to change our ways. Otherwise, how can we understand someone like Anil Seth, who is clearly quite experienced in psychedelics but still sees everything to be quite explainable through neuroscience?

What is called "ego death", "ego dissociation", etc. and considered the hallmark of great achievement by many psychonauts, is nothing but testimony that we have not developed our inner organism, such that we can cross the the threshold of death without losing self-consciousness.

This is a vast topic. Only indications can be given here. In the previous post was mentioned the question of sacrifice, death and resurrection. Psychedelics offer only death. Sacrifice implies fully conscious act - to leave the thinking ego behind voluntarily. We don't do that. The only voluntary act is to take the substance. From there one, the process forces us towards the threshold. We don't know resurrection either. If we are pushed too far, we simply disintegrate, the elemental beings that constitute our ordinary consciousness fly away. Upon returning we have a vague memory that something did happen but we simply cannot reconstruct it.

Eastern mysticism knows sacrifice and death. One walks voluntarily to the threshold. Death is experienced but then one stops there and contemplates the nothingness. There's no resurrection.

We are not saying here anything against shamanism or Eastern mysticism. These methods have been completely appropriate for their time. This was so because resurrection has not yet been available to humankind. Here again, these things can only make sense if we at least admit the possibility that humanity is evolving. Just as a child can not reproduce before a certain age, so there are certain stages of consciousness that were not yet reachable thousands of years ago. There are tons of important things to be said here, that will make this understandable but it will take a series of lectures. The point is that we should be observant of what makes its way into the development of humanity. Otherwise, we take ancient practices and apply them in today's context, while ignoring what has been added to man in the meantime. Whether we want it or not, man moves forward. The fierce avoidance of the "I" is just one such symptom, when taking ancient practices (for which the "I" was not at all a point of concern) and applying them in modern age. These practices cannot be applied in the same form because something new has appeared now, which was not present long ago - fully self-aware thinking consciousness, capable of saying "I" to itself. In order to restore the ancient forms of spirituality, this self-consciousness should be abolished. Ancient forms of spirituality see in the "I" the evil standing on the way.

Instead of abolishing it, the contemporary path of Initiation (which reflects the evolution of humanity at large, even if the general population is always lagging behind the Initiates) has integrated resurrection. Make no mistake - the intellectual self really dies and is left behind. It is too much dependent on the structures of the physical and etheric bodies. That's why it loses consciousness within the Astral (and every night while we sleep). But nevertheless, the Essential Being, is able to find its way within the Astral and even higher. This is what resurrects - the Essential Being, the Spirit, that animates the ordinary self, even if there this Being identifies with thinking. Within the Astral, the "I" resurrects as what has always been called in Eastern terms - Manas - or in modern terms - Spirit-Self. This is the first of three stages of the Higher Self - Manas, Buddhi, Atma. The ancient yogi could experience these three members as independent beings, shining within his atavistic clairvoyant consciousness. Today it is possible to experience something of these members from a first-person perspective, to experience something of their nature not externally but from their "I" point of view. To be sure these three members will be developed only in the far, far distant future. We have much work to do from the perspective of our ordinary self. But nevertheless, we can only know something about the direction this work should take, if we are able to die and resurrect the "I" within the perspective of the higher members. It could be said that in this way we can experience what form the future should take. These experiences turn into practical knowledge, that can turn into powerful moral impulses for furthering our evolution.

Once again, I'm not sure that I disagree unless you are saying that you disagree??? For clarification, I am definitely not a psychonaut. Although I drink Daime regularly, I rarely trip or even seek 'far out' journeys. For me, it's more like regular baths. The steps are clean, firm up, maintain the devotion, share the shine in service. I do not "see in the "I" the evil standing on the way." Certainly, we must be "able to die and resurrect the "I"", which I define simply as letting go of no longer useful habits. This expansion of integration is as much about coming down to earth as with rising into higher realms. It is an ongoing work because the world itself is in flux and will always present challenges. Hence, the need for ongoing death and resurrection. Call it a bath. Call it a baptism. Call it an initiation. Do it with psychedelics, with water from a pure spring, with no substance at all. What is used and what it is called do not matter. What matters is that it is done. This is the difference that makes the difference.

OK, if you follow my drift and agree in your own ways of direct experience, then we do in fact grok each other.

[Lou Gold]

PS: The letting go of the "me and mine" is not a letting go of the "I". It is a letting go of the grasping attachment to separation. The thus liberated "I" and the "One" unite and there no longer exists an "Other". Translated into the lingo of BK's Idealism, the Dissociated Identity Disorder dies and is resurrected as the Divinely Integrated Diversity. Who DID it? The One DID.

[AshvinP]

IMO part of the issue here is that Cleric is describing what can properly be called a "spiritual science". Many of us (myself included) are still lingering in that Cartesian paradigm of separating matters of the Spirit (Mind) from matters of Nature. We assume that everyone can and perhaps should hold their respective opinions about the former, while we would also decry those who dare do so for the latter. We view the evolution of Nature as self-evident scientific fact, even though we have never observed these organic processes happening (I do believe they happened in some fashion), while the evolution of Spirit seems more questionable to us, even though we have observed it happening in our own lives and can observe it again by accessing memories of childhood and adolescence. It's a very strange and unnatural thing when you think about it. We talk about reconciling Spirit and Nature, Mind and Matter all the time, healing the division so to speak, but how many of us actually do so when thinking through these issues? At most we do temporarily in moments of clarity, but then we are right back to smoking that Cartesian crack, like a true addict.

[Soul_of_Shu]

At most we do temporarily in moments of clarity, but then we are right back to smoking that Cartesian crack, like a true addict.

Oh how I know the feeling ... it seems the ultimate 'Catch 22'. Indeed, the causeless ontological imperative toward expressing/experiencing/exploring this 'self'-perpetuating dream of a relational subject><object dynamic as the ipseity of this suffering-prone dissociated 'I' seems somehow comparable with being a crack addict. Then one cries "mea culpa", yet given what the realization of one's essential nature reveals this 'me' to be, what other than M@L as us is bogarting that pipe? Guy walks into an AA meeting and says: "Hello, my name is God and I'm an addict"

[Lou Gold]

At most we do temporarily in moments of clarity, but then we are right back to smoking that Cartesian crack, like a true addict.

Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack, a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in

[Cleric K]

PS: The letting go of the "me and mine" is not a letting go of the "I". It is a letting go of the grasping attachment to separation. The thus liberated "I" and the "One" unite and there no longer exists an "Other". Translated into the lingo of BK's Idealism, the Dissociated Identity Disorder dies and is resurrected as the Divinely Integrated Diversity. Who DID it? The One DID.

I see, Lou. First, I would like to affirm once again, that I'm not writing these things in any personal relation to you. I'm pretty certain that in your life you've had much greater positive impact on people around you, than me. So I'm not at all trying to tell that you are wrong or something like that. There's no wrong Love. We're just using our dialog as context, so that certain things can be said, which I find relevant.

I've had my share of psychedelic experiences so I can speak for myself. I'm just sharing personal experiences in the context of the discussion.

Once serious work in meditation (not the no-mind/no-self kind) is started, it quickly becomes clear that there are many things that substances can never reveal to us. Most importantly, they can't teach us how to be active within the higher realm.

When we approach the letting go, things go as Lou said (the quote). We can describe the spiritual activity prior to that, to be felt as somewhat "jagged", having "sharp" edges, constantly bouncing and our thinking self lives within this activity. It rises above the general substance as thought forms. That's the separateness. With the letting go, these hectic thought forms subside and we find ourselves in a smooth, fluid-like flow. Something very characteristic of this state is that there's no more movement of attention. It's like our focus is spread over the totality of the world content. Everything is in focus at the same time. We no longer feel as if we are at one point and need to move our focus of perception between separate elements.

In this state there are no sharp boundaries and that's what justifies us to speak of Oneness. Nevertheless, this state represents a certain individual perspective. If we are objective, we would never claim, for example, that in this oneness we experience the consciousnesses of all human being as overlaid one over the other and experienced as One. We can have a strong feeling, experienced as understanding, that the substance we flow in, is the same for all beings but nevertheless we still experience only a perspective, a limited sphere of the substance.

Once we set on to work on higher cognition, we gradually discover that our "I" can be active within this substance, which in modern terms is called astral. It should be noted that the letting go of the thinking self happens in quite different way in meditation. This holds the key, which allows us to experience the transition between the lower activity and the higher. It'll take us too far to describe this in details.

When we experience the astral in this way we gradually become aware that, even though the substance if smooth, there are no sharp boundaries and everything is "in focus", there are still different domains of the substance. We find out that there are parts that we can influence while others are much more independent. That's how we become aware of the "I" within this realm. The principle is the same as in normal cognition where we experience thoughts which we recognize as something that we control, while various perceptions meet us as something independent. We learn to do something similar in the astral but there everything is in constant metamorphosis, we can not draw sharp boundaries and say "this is me, this is not me". Processes flow into each other. But nevertheless, we can still gain self-consciousness as an active spiritual being and the parts that seem to be outside our control, we recognize as being influenced by other beings. So it turns out that things are not merged in a homogenous soup of oneness but the astral fluid is being modulated, worked on, by spirits which can be recognized as being quite individual - just as we are experiencing an individual perspective within this realm. It is really the case that the jagged forms of the thinking ego have been overcome and we are flowing in the smooth substance but our "I" is now finding ways to recognize its reflection even within this constant motion.

It should be noted that everything we say about astral "substance" and so on, can only have a pictorial meaning. The experiences that we are describing are something specific in themselves, just like color and tone are specific experiences. All these descriptions are nothing but pictorial analogies so we shouldn't try getting too literal about them.

When the differentiation of our activity is made, we can already speak of the astral body. It is not something that we see externally in the way we see the physical with our eyes but we live within it, our spiritual activity flows with it and we recognize that we have influence in certain parts and practically no influence as we go towards "the periphery" so to speak. The parts that we can be most active in, gradually become more and more distinguishable. We recognize these as the astral or soul organs that are most popularly known as chakras or lotus flowers. Again - we don't see these organs in the way they are usually portrayed in pictures, as colorful flowers along the center line of the body. There's full justification that they are pictured like that but in the higher realm we experience them from the "inside" so to speak. As a matter of fact, the more the perceptions related to the physical body are driven away, the more the soul organs can be pictured as spheres within spheres. They have their specific contributions for the total "volume" of our conscious experience.

Just for an example, it is interesting to experience the workings of the organ that is pictured in the larynx. In our normal life we feel our consciousness in the head, there are our thoughts and perceptions. We do hear our thinking voice but the perceptions of that voice are in head. As we rise towards the experiences in the astral, our normal consciousness becomes "delaminated", so to speak. We are much more able to distinguish what comes from where. Very important observation is how our thinking activity flows from the larynx organ. It should be noted that there's no point to look for direct physical/neuronal projection of this process. Our nervous system is the mirror, so to speak, where thoughts can become sensory-like perceptible. The head soul organ (the two-petal lotus) is most closely related with the nervous system and primarily the brain. Within the astral we can observe how thoughts are being formed with the sphere of the larynx and emanate as something akin to sound waves but these are waves in astral substance. As these waves interfere with the head organ, they condense, so to speak, to thought perceptions. In certain sense it can be said, that we rise to higher cognition when we are able to withhold the condensation of thoughts within the head and learn to experience ourselves within the activity prior to that. Interesting analogy can be made with the help of quantum terminology, where we can say that we become conscious within the process prior to the collapse of the wave function within the brain. But this is only an expression, it shouldn't be taken too far because it can become misleading in many ways. Higher experiences stand for what they are, we don't need theory to explain them. We simply have to describe them.

I guess all that can be a little too much for most readers. I know that things like this come like out-of-the-blue and it is perfectly normal that they are met with great suspicion. In fact, it would be harmful if one simply "believes" something like that. These things are not be believed but thought about. When they are thought about from the most varied angles they begin to make sense. The reason is that our thinking is itself a spiritual process that exists within the processes and organs described. The astral body and world are not somewhere else in a remote domain. Every ordinary thought is being formed within the larynx organ, although, to be sure, spiritual activity is not "generated" within the larynx, it only gets shaped there and continues towards the head where it reaches the level of sense perceptibility. Our spiritual activity emerges from the mysterious depths. There's always something that is beyond our perception. Nevertheless, proper cognition within the astral body reveals many processes that occur at every instant of our life but we are simply not conscious of them. They lie in the subconsciousness from our ordinary perspective. It is just that the normally developed human being of today is naturally sensitive to the thoughts only when they interfere with the physico-etheric brain. A special work needs to be done if we are to develop our sensitivity for the prior processes. Yet it is not needed that one develops higher cognition himself, in order to be able to understand descriptions like the above. If we live vividly through such descriptions we are practically experiencing the same soul configurations as these which the one who perceived the processes, lived in, in order to describe them.

Let me try to explain this with a simple analogy. Imagine that astral body is represented by a dark room with all kinds of furniture and obstacles inside. The one who has developed perception for the interior can be metaphorically said, to be equipped with night vision goggles. He can say to someone else "Here, there's a table, here's a chair" and sure enough another man, even if he can't see, can touch the furniture and see that there's indeed logic in what he's being told. This is severely simplified example but it is nevertheless something similar in regards to higher cognition. When one livingly thinks through genuine descriptions of higher experiences, he basically repeats the same forms of spiritual activity that the seer does. In other words, our thinking becomes a kind of a touch organ, through which we can experience the "geometry" of our spiritual being.

I feel uneasy to write about these things, especially when knowing with how much prejudice they are normally met. But in the context of our discussion I felt it to be somewhat necessary to at least point the attention towards these things. Otherwise we get lost in generalities. There comes time when we have to speak concretely about things. What I have described is really one the most basic experiences that one confronts on this path of development. It is nothing miraculous. Yet things like these should at least be heard of. We need to counterbalance the hegemony of no-self/no-thought spirituality. It must be known that life does not end with the balancing of the head soul organ and quieting of the larynx organ (of course the heart organ is enormously important too but it would've taken us too far to speak of it too). The so called enlightenment of today is nothing but very specific configuration of the heart, larynx and head organs. Certain state of tranquility is established, where we experience the astral body similar to a calm sea. Since the jagged thinking activity within the dual mirror of the head ceases, with it ceases the ordinary self-perception. This state is considered to give us the ground truth of reality.

I hope that it was possible to at least hint, that things are not that simple. In fact, they are very complex. This is another popular prejudice in relation to the Spiritual - that it should be simple. And this is the task that lies ahead of humanity. Only through penetrating into our spiritual structure we can gain true self-knowledge. Only there we can understand, among other things, something about the mystery of evil. As long as we try to "fix" the world through purely external means, we'll always be sabotaged by certain beings. Actually these beings can be most effective when people think that they don't exist. That's when they become most powerful because people believe that they are doing their own will. The evolution of man is evolution of consciousness. And this is not something that we should expect to happen in the beyond (afterlife) but we must do it here and now. There's no distinct beyond. There's only one world. If we don't find the spiritual within the physical world, we'll be just as confused in the period between death and birth. And we can see how many difficulties we have at hand. While spirituality is being generalized as joyful merging with the all-that-is, we remain completely oblivious of our own spiritual structure and the path that we should tread. This joyful merging is only the experience of the astral body within its domain. And we haven't even mentioned the higher realms which require even higher degrees of consciousness in order to be perceived.