Rudolf Steiner's Fifth Gospel by John David Ebert

Any topics primarily focused on metaphysics can be discussed here, in a generally casual way, where conversations may take unexpected turns.
User avatar
AshvinP
Posts: 5478
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:00 am
Location: USA

Re: Rudolf Steiner's Fifth Gospel by John David Ebert

Post by AshvinP »

Cleric K wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:15 pm We have to come to clear conception of reality. And this is possible only through direct, spiritual perception. Then we immediately see how this spiritual knowledge in itself becomes a powerful impulse for our moral life. When we have experienced one such idea and have made it flesh of our flesh, an idea such as the preservation of the ethnosphere, shines within us as a direct consequence of our higher understanding. We don't want to preserve the ethnosphere because of some half-understood, vague feeling of pity for the defenseless tribes, but because our Highest Ideal, our Love passes through that sphere. We would never be what we are without this sphere. And now that we have elevated ourselves to perceive it, we immediately become responsible for it. We love all people with all our strength because we feel Cosmic Bliss by giving our life in service to all. Just as the big Me gives His life so that we can have it.

This is the chilling (for some) fact of Spiritual evolution. One does not simply move to higher and higher forms while leaving everything behind. As soon as one leaves given form he becomes responsible for it, just as adults are responsible for their children. Not only that we don't escape the Solar system through our egoistic striving for liberation from samsara but every step in that direction should make us more and more involved in the Great Work that is being done. So far Beings higher than us have been carrying this Work. As we grow and mature, we don't go to satisfy our "higher" egoistical desires but begin to participate consciously and in freedom, out of Love, in the Work on the Cosmic Edifice.
A few concrete examples of what you describe above are laid out towards the end of the Peterson-Ridley interview. One being the "escape from Malthus" and the idea that giving financial aid to countries in Africa or to India is a "waste" because the world is 'over-populated' and therefore no amount of aid will ever make the problem better, in fact it will only incentivize people to continue reproducing. Meanwhile, the facts show that world poverty, hunger and a whole host of other previously 'unsolvable' problems have been alleviated over the last few decades through technology and the "green revolution". This type of radical Malthusian pessimism and anti-human sentiment does not motivate people to freely work towards improving the ethnosphere and usually ends up motivating the exact opposite.

Thanks for the clear and thoughtful post, Cleric, as always.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
User avatar
David_Sundaram
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:22 pm

Re: Rudolf Steiner's Fifth Gospel by John David Ebert

Post by David_Sundaram »

AshvinP wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:44 pmI was being serious... my post was underlined even though I didn't add any code. I'm assuming it has something to do with quoting your post but I couldn't figure out how to get rid of it.
If that ever happens to you again, all you have to do is to put a 'stop underline' code - i.e. [/u]
User avatar
David_Sundaram
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:22 pm

Re: Rudolf Steiner's Fifth Gospel by John David Ebert

Post by David_Sundaram »

Cleric K wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:28 pmI respect your philosophy because who can deny we are much in need of Love in this world?
But it does not hurt to have an open mind for routes that lead even deeper.
Everything you said (to me) backatcha, Fellow-Aspirant.

The data which supports my theory of what 'incarnational' Life is about and the wheres it is going comes from the research and collation of experienced facts by the likes of scientific observer like Michael Newton, Ph,D. and Brian Weiss, M.D. I have interpreted and extrapolated the sayings (which share the reality-view) of Jesus and the author of the Bhagavad Gita in the 'light' of said research and collation, which also 'supports' the reality-view shared by Seth (channeled by Jane Roberts) and 'hypnotherapists' like Dolores Cannon as well as many of those trained under the auspices of The Newon Institute.

Such 'data' is available for inspection and consideration.

You may consider such 'data' too tootie-frooty to meaningfully integrate into your reality-view of what incarnational Life is about and where it is going. By all means present yours in said regard more fully.

Let the most creatively functional ideas/memes 'win out' by way of bearing the best (quality!) 'fruit' and, consequently, most beneficently (in terms of quality of experience and expression) 'seeding' humanity's future.

From my point of view, what you have presented and argued for so far is what I argue against in my treatise as being too nice-nice-pollyanna-unrealistic. Reprising said 'argument' for anyone else interested:

"Cosmically ‘awakened’ souls continue to live and make choices as personally response-able, choice‑implementing selves who are well worth every ‘bit’ of their ‘salt’, albeit they do so so ‘sacrally’, without putting themselves on any kind of ‘pedestal’, knowing that they are vital components of Life’s Grand Being‑n‑Doing, in other words knowing that they are Love and Joy experiencing and expressing ‘buds’, ‘leaves ’, ‘flowers’ and potentially ‘seed’ bearing ‘fruit’ on ‘the Tree’ of Life Itself!

Note, however: The applicability of any and all analogies is limited by the partiality of the significators they contain. If what’s said in the above paragraph is still fairly new news  to you, watch that you don’t consequently just go off on a Pollyanna‧ish☺ Love and Joy dispensing ‘ride’ in a naive attempt to unreservedly welcome and be supportive of anything and everything about yourself and/or others just as they are. Unconditional Love is often extolled as being the most ‘perfect’ kind of ‘love’. But the fact is that maximal experience and expression of Love and Joy cannot always be so simply actualized in the context of a multiplistically complex world such as ours. (This, notwithstanding the fact that many of Jesus’ exhortations which focused on promoting brotherly love (see Matthew 5:43-48 for example) may be read to support such ‘unconditional’ proposition. The way in which he addressed establishment Scribes and Pharisees stands in sharp contrast to these, however.)

The relevant bit of information in this case is that, despite the fact that each and every soul and personality aspect thereof really derives from and so may truly be regarded as being an expression of Life Itself, some configurations thereof are more conducive of experience and further expression of Love and Joy while others are not only less so but  may even be counterproductive in said regard. As the apostle Paul put it: “In a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honor, and some to dishonor.” (II Timothy 2:20) So embracing and supporting everyone and everything equally, without reservation in any regard, will not serve to operationally maximize the flowering and fructification of Love and Joy in The Flow‑Field of Life.

Among other things (expanding the scope of The Tree of Life analogy), because of the fact that still incarnating souls are often, in one way or another, still fairly self ishly motivated, they may also (in many cases quite unconsciously!) in effect function (sometimes quite ‘poisonously’ even) as ‘parasites’ and ‘thorns’ in relation to others. Would-be Cosmic, i.e. Tree-hugging☺, souls may therefore be purposed (by Love and Joy, the imperative of Life Itself !) to learn to recognize as well as then devise and implement ways of deflecting and educationally redirecting or, such measures possibly failing, counteracting such tendencies in oneself and/or others so as to stop these from being harmfully ‘acted out’, if, when and in whatever ways and to whatever extent one may have the capacity to so do.

The point being made here is that, to become and synergically function as a self-transcendentally wholesome agent of Life, one must both learn to perceptively discern what sorts of things will and what sorts of things won’t really serve to optimize and augment the experience and expression of Love and Joy in the self ish-temptation filled context of Life’s earthly matrix, as well as then act wisely (i.e. judiciously) on the basis of such knowledge. As the Biblical story of Solomon’s most famous ‘judgment’ clearly illustrates, there is much more to serving the cause of Life than ‘unconditionally’ embracing and/or supporting every aspect of one’s own or others’ being-n-doing processes.

Now, when a soul reaches the point where it truly grasps and fully embraces the fact that it really is an integral aspect of The Entity of (all!) Life, as Jesus (clearly!) did, it just ceases to psychospiritually ‘i’dentify with the physio­social constellation of its personal self and/or whatever galaxy of affiliated selves (or philosophical constructs pertaining thereto) it may currently have the most immediately consequential involvement with and affiliation to, and so (logically then) stops being egotistical (i.e. selfish in the ‘petty’ sense of the word ) and commits itself to living with the aim of maximally fulfilling its Love and Joy imperative in relation to others in the context of The Flow of Life-at-Large, doing whatever it can (given its present situational context as a self ) to optimize and augment not just its own or any particular set of associates’ immediate Love and Joy processes, but environmentally (hence ethically in the most comprehensive sense of the word) taking into account any and all ‘ripple effects’ which might conceivably stem from its ‘doings’ in ways that (ultimately) impact the Love and Joy processes of everyone around, the well‑being of future generations also being included in said calculus of course!

Souls ‘graduate’ from Earthly-life’s ‘school’ when their reincarnational learning and development ‘curriculum’ has thus been completed. Having realized their Cosmic ‘I’dentity (termed ‘Christhood’ by some and spoken of  as [every]one’s ‘Buddha Nature’ by others) to be The Spirit of Life Itself,  such souls operationally function as full-fledged colleagues of what Jesus referenced as ‘the Father’ from then on. Those who have grasped the fact  that the pronouns I and me as used in Jesus’ statements actually reference The Entity (i.e., the entirety) of Life’s Flow – Why? Because, as elucidated in Chapter 1, he personally completely ‘i’dentified with It! – who now also grok the fact that the above-described reincarnational learning-and‑development-leading-to-graduation process is what ‘leads’ to such collegial  recombination, will have no trouble recognizing that it is said all‑encompassing Flow-phenom, and not himself personally, that Jesus was referencing when he emphatically declared: “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me!” (John 14:6)
"

Further 'arguing' with/against how 'the example' of Jesus's Life on earth and his sayings in said context is [most often (not always, mind you!) miss-interpreted and miss-followed IMO, from a footnote in my treatise:

"Many who think that being unconditionally ‘kind’ and/or equally ‘generous’ in relation to others was what Jesus advocated in the ‘name’ of Universal Love don’t realize that his ‘turn the other cheek’, ‘give him your shirt also’ and ‘walk an extra mile if and when compelled to walk one’ statements (see Mathew 5:39-41) shrewdly coached physiosocially ‘powerless’ people to psychospiritually embarrass and thereby (hopefully) pique the conscience of those who were being unconscionably coercive and exploitative (in face of the fact that they would invite and likely incur further abuse if they attempted to ‘resist’ such treatment). His endorsement of the use of ‘embarrassment’ and ‘showing people up’ (for the abusers that they are!) as tactics in service of the cause of ‘truth and justice’ is especially apparent in his advice that folks take off and give their shirts (as well!) to anyone who sued them for and were being awarded their coats (for non-payment of debt), because the men in his culture just wore (long) shirts under their (long) coats, and they would therefore thereby ‘flash’ and ‘moon’ (i.e. expose their genitals and asses to) their persecutors!"

One doesn't have to 'buy into' every aspect of the schema of post-incarnational-Life I present to engage with my 'points' in the above regard. C'mon man, show ''us' (everyone) here your proposal of 'the way' to a better quality of interactive Life-Life here.

I am happy to have such schema be relegated to the 'realm' of un-physically-verifiable speculation, albeit I think it puts Life here into 'greater' perspective, and so I still recommend and continue to 'argue' for its being 'tried on' by 'conscience' for psychospiritual 'fit' by anyone 'open' to doing so who :) [.u]feels an 'attraction' in said regard.
User avatar
Lou Gold
Posts: 2025
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:18 pm

Re: Rudolf Steiner's Fifth Gospel by John David Ebert

Post by Lou Gold »

(sorry in advance for the length of the post. I keep on trying to write short but it simply doesn't work :? )
Lou Gold wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:44 pm
Cleric, I really appreciate the cogent ways you articulate your views and I agree with much that you say. However, it seems to me that it is during adolescence that the temptations of freedom and taking one's development into one's own hands are greatest and most reckless. The initiatory rite of passage into adulthood is more about learning self-limits and serving sacred purpose and future generations.
That's exactly what I'm talking about. Now I'm thinking why from your perspective it seems that I'm speaking of something else. My only guess is that the word 'freedom' is to blame.


Thank you Cleric for your considered and eloquent response. I also am not quite sure if we are in agreement or not. To find out, I'm going to have to dig deeper into the background assumptions lurking about your lengthy text, which may take me awhile.

Meanwhile, let me clarify my use of the word 'grok':

Grok /ˈɡrɒk/ is a neologism coined by American writer Robert A. Heinlein for his 1961 science fiction novel Stranger in a Strange Land. While the Oxford English Dictionary summarizes the meaning of grok as "to understand intuitively or by empathy, to establish rapport with" and "to empathize or communicate sympathetically (with); also, to experience enjoyment", Heinlein's concept is far more nuanced ... see more at Wiki.

In my personal usage, it has several meanings: 1) to understand or hold an experience that is much bigger than can be expressed in words (like a psychedelic or deep religious experience); 2) to know that I can empathically share with someone who has had similar or analogous experiences (with another "stranger in a strange land"); or 3) to somehow be able to intuitively 'know' a great deal of a book or verbal treatise based simply on a few 'key words' or 'memes'. BTW, I've not read much philosophy or science fiction, including "Stranger in a Strange Land." :roll:
Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love
User avatar
Lou Gold
Posts: 2025
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:18 pm

Re: Rudolf Steiner's Fifth Gospel by John David Ebert

Post by Lou Gold »

Cleric K wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:15 pm (sorry in advance for the length of the post. I keep on trying to write short but it simply doesn't work :? )
Lou Gold wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:44 am Cleric, I really appreciate the cogent ways you articulate your views and I agree with much that you say. However, it seems to me that it is during adolescence that the temptations of freedom and taking one's development into one's own hands are greatest and most reckless. The initiatory rite of passage into adulthood is more about learning self-limits and serving sacred purpose and future generations.
That's exactly what I'm talking about. Now I'm thinking why from your perspective it seems that I'm speaking of something else. My only guess is that the word 'freedom' is to blame. If freedom is understood as the exhibit of unrestrained behavior, blind pursuit of satisfaction of desires - yes, that's exactly what leads to reckless behavior in adolescence. But this is not freedom in the higher sense. When I act erratically, I'm not free because all my actions are compulsory, I don't know why I act the way I do - my stubborn organic nature acts for me, I only identify with the actions. I'm not free if at the sight of a beautiful girl I become so aroused that this excitement turns into action and I commit a crime. I'm simply a slave to my unrestrained desire - I don't have a choice, I'm not free.

Let's try to approach the idea of freedom in the higher sense. Wade Davis has traveled far and wide, and finally became rightfully fascinated with the incredible diversity of expressions of the human spirit. All these experiences culminate in him in the idea "it is our duty to preserve and cherish the ethnosphere!".
Now you watch Davis and you (I don't know the exact meaning of the word but it sounds as something you would say :) ) grok his idea.

What is an idea? 2 + 2 = 4 is an idea. Now everyone who read this expression has experienced his or her own and unique thought form that captured the idea. Most commonly it's the verbalization of the symbols in our mind, with our own unique inner voice. Now the thought form is unique to ourselves but everyone here experienced the same idea. I don't care who has what philosophical understanding of what idea is - whether it is simply neuronal firings, whether it is a metaphysical entity, etc. The immediate and simplest fact is that all of us who read the expression, experienced the same idea. If that was not the case communication would be impossible. It is only because we strive to experience the same ideas, that we can understand each other at all. Clearly, sometimes the same word can capture different ideas in different people. That's why we try at this moment to reach the same idea of freedom, so that we can understand each other.

Back to Davis. Now you experience the same idea as him. The big question is, do you feel as this idea has been forced to you and you need to comply or you simply resonate with it? I'll bet it's the latter. There's something within your being that fully aligns with that idea. Your being lives in certain understanding of existence and the idea aligns, resonates with that understanding. Can we trace more concretely the origins of this understanding? I don't want to speak instead of you but nevertheless, I'm quite confident that you would say that at the core of this understanding is the idea that we are all One. When you look at the world through the eyes of this idea you feel the sacredness of every plant, every pebble, every animal, every human being.

But not everyone has reached this idea. Even if everyone can understand it abstractly it takes much more than that to live the idea, to allow all our thoughts, feelings and actions become the living expression of the idea. What is it that prevents others to experience this idea with all their being? Many things, lack of knowledge, egoistic desires, etc.

Now if you were in position to transform humanity in an instant, what would you do? Would you create a government system that ensures that everyone complies with the rules of preservation of ethno-diversity? Or would you make that all human beings can experience, at least for a moment, the love and joy that you experience when your soul fuses with the Cosmic Spirit? Now we are getting nearer to what freedom is in the higher sense. It is about peeling the sheaths of unconscious, instinctive life one by one. This is a never-ending process. The more we do this, the clearer we see. From this clear perspective we can set sight on our High Ideal and say for ourselves "It is the greatest fulfillment of my soul to experience the unfoldment and profusion of Life. What I do in this way does not benefit only myself but the whole Living Cosmos. I do this not because someone forced me to, not because I've read it in the sacred books, not because I think it's 'right' and everyone should do the same, but because this is what I Love and what I would Love to experience". Now the last part is the most troublesome for most people. We are so used to have definition of what is right and wrong. This is what we do in science too - we try to extract from experiment the rules that tell us how we should live. But in the final run, everyone does what he wants. By freedom we understand that one has to continuously 'clear the view'. Then, if we thus discover an Ideal that stands even higher than our present one, we go after it. We are not free if we have only one choice, as domino pieces in chain reaction. We are not free if we feel the Laws of God as something that we should obey, without understanding why. We are not free if we think that our High Ideal, no matter how beneficial for the whole Cosmos, is somewhere decreed as 'right' and we have the right to force others to accept it.

So I hope that we have now reached common understanding of what it means to reach adulthood. It is not about getting over with the reckless behavior and accepting the ground rules of society, religion, etc. This is also necessary for most but it is still a kind of obedience. This is not an adult but a teenager in straightjacket. He conforms not because he has overcome his desires but because he has accepted the rules. There is a simple test that all of us can make in relation to any desire. When I feel desire for something I can ask myself "do I restrain myself because it will violate the rules of society and religion? In other words, if these rules were not in place, would I joyfully go on to satisfy my desire?" This is a very simple criteria to see for ourselves the true origins of our behavior. We are free only when we have attained to the spiritual height where we can experience the rules as our own. Not because others told me to conform but because they are the natural expression of my Love for the High Ideal.


I would like to say something about the ethnosphere. I agree that we shouldn't interfere with it. We should not deforest the native lands, nor force our language on anyone.

How do we know about these tribes, these cultures? Where did the camera which Davis uses to photograph come from? Where did the airplane with which he travels the world far and wide came from? Where did the printing press for NG and the Internet come from?
I assume that you are now ready to unleash the Divine wrath on me for speaking like that :) No, I'm not advocating technocracy. I have something completely different in mind.

The question of the races is painful. Let's use the word civilizations instead because in our age it is no longer the case that the white civilization consists of humans of only Caucasian genotypes. Members of all genetic races participate in the Western civilization, so we can't judge by skin color. Furthermore, even the West is no longer only in the west but it is in every country all over the world.

The point is that you, Lou, are in privileged position. And I put the most selfless, loving and humble meaning in that term. I'm not at all speaking of some selfish supremacy here! Think of it in this way. Let's forget technology and races. Now you are in position where you survey the astonishing diversity of cultures and you can say "Look at this astonishing diversity! This marvelous work of the Spirit, expressing itself in the most manifold ways. Developing the most varied practices, rituals, lifestyles so that the Spirit locked into the human bodies can reconnect with Itself." But you can only say that because you, yourself, has gone through all these forms in different incarnations. (speaking only figuratively here) You have experienced what it is to be an Inuit struggling with the frost. You know what it is to be a Native American thankful to the Great Spirit for the game. You know what it is to be a Zulu dancing in a trance state. All this your Spirit knows. You are now standing above it and saying "I can see the same Spirit everywhere - the same Spirit that thinks in me". You are not locked in any one tribal form, their deities, their rituals. You can dip in and out any of them. You are free. You have found in yourself the human universal.

Now we need to appreciate this deeply. You, Lou, have grown beyond the individual tribal forms of consciousness. That's why you have incarnated where you have. Don't believe me? OK. Imagine that you take few of these tribes and put them in the same sandbox. Are you sure they'll get along easily? Who is going to sacrifice their own rituals and practices in exchange for the ones of the alien tribe? You see, these people identify with their culture. And I'm not saying this as judgment or as if it is a bad thing! Not at all! I'm just pointing out that you are in a different position. Different not in some egoistical, supremacist way - exactly the opposite. You have learned through experience to recognize what is the essential in the human being - the Spirit. You can see the Spirit everywhere. But will the Zulu voodoo people see the same Spirit in the Kogi? It's not that certain.

Think again. Now, from your perspective, would you like to lose all your understandings and live a life as an Inuit? Without being aware that there are other cultures around the globe, focused on your survival. What would your soul gain that it doesn't already know? If we mediate deeply on these things we reach the understanding - this is exactly the grandeur of evolution, of development! We can appreciate the beauty and magnificence of the diverse forms, only when we ourselves leave them and are able to behold them. As long as our Spirit is locked into one such form we are not conscious of any of this! Our form completely formats our conscious experience - our traditions, religion, lifestyle - all of these are the clothes of the Cosmic Spirit through which the experience of the big Me is being filtered. And now we also understand that our current form, even though we are in a higher position and able to behold the many other forms that our Spirit could take, is yet another form. And in this way, we can point our gaze prophetically into the future and see that at some point our Spirit will be looking back on our current state and see how we have been (we are now) locked into a certain culture, with certain understandings and beliefs.

This is the point where man can begin to work consciously on his evolution. And here's why we need Spiritual Science. Consider this: what I have above described could have been seen as highly egoistical by you and other readers. To claim that one rises to higher stages of development? What an arrogance! But this becomes arrogant only when we don't understand our spiritual structure. It is widely considered today, that one, even though being compassionate for others, in the final run works for his own salvation from samsara, expecting to become free of suffering and pain - by leaving the suffering humanity behind. Spiritual perception reveals that this does not stand up to the facts. One can not at all extricate himself from planetary and Solar evolution. What about Gautama Buddha? Allegedly he did it! And that's true. Bodhisattvas really reach the point of last incarnation when they become Buddhas. But Spiritual cognition shows that Gautama Buddha has not at all left the arena of our world. In fact he works with even greater intensity on the human souls. Buddha did not at all disappeared in Nirvana. He doesn't incarnate because he is much more useful for the evolution of humanity by working directly in the souls of men, producing powerful inspirations in them. He can achieve much less if he incarnates into a body. This was only as a side note, food for thought. The real illusion is that man has destiny separate from that of all humanity. Instead, when man liquidates with his own Karma, he takes on the Karma of all humanity and continues working for the whole. This might sound as shocking but one must simply be observant and ask himself "What is it in me that rebels if this is really the truth?" One can learn a lot about himself through such a simple question.

We have to come to clear conception of reality. And this is possible only through direct, spiritual perception. Then we immediately see how this spiritual knowledge in itself becomes a powerful impulse for our moral life. When we have experienced one such idea and have made it flesh of our flesh, an idea such as the preservation of the ethnosphere, shines within us as a direct consequence of our higher understanding. We don't want to preserve the ethnosphere because of some half-understood, vague feeling of pity for the defenseless tribes, but because our Highest Ideal, our Love passes through that sphere. We would never be what we are without this sphere. And now that we have elevated ourselves to perceive it, we immediately become responsible for it. We love all people with all our strength because we feel Cosmic Bliss by giving our life in service to all. Just as the big Me gives His life so that we can have it.

This is the chilling (for some) fact of Spiritual evolution. One does not simply move to higher and higher forms while leaving everything behind. As soon as one leaves given form he becomes responsible for it, just as adults are responsible for their children. Not only that we don't escape the Solar system through our egoistic striving for liberation from samsara but every step in that direction should make us more and more involved in the Great Work that is being done. So far Beings higher than us have been carrying this Work. As we grow and mature, we don't go to satisfy our "higher" egoistical desires but begin to participate consciously and in freedom, out of Love, in the Work on the Cosmic Edifice.
Whew! You sure do love to unleash a torrent of words. It's gonna probably trigger the same from me. ;)

Lemme see if I can cut to the chase. NO! the issue for me is not about freedom. I've been learning/experiencing the joys/pains of devoted service for decades and the process has unfolded for me largely along syncretic shamanic pathways. Far from transcending indigenous ways, they've been my greatest teachers, which is precisely why I am resistant to developmental storylines that portray spiritual development as rising above them rather than integrating with them. Case in point: I met some of the Kogi in Brasilia, Brazil at a gathering of the International Council of Indigenous Grandmothers, which was made both possible and poignant by modern technology, which allowed us to gather seeking collaboration rather than conquest. It was all about moving from 'me' to 'we' in order to create an ancient-future integration and not a future-primitive deconstruction. In brief, I do not need stories of the 'joys of devoted service' because I have experienced them. And, in the bodhisattva way, I have found these joys as much in coming down to a grounded engagement with them as in rising up to some sort of transcendence. I agree with the words of the recently passed great modern bodhisattva Thich Nhat Hanh: It is possible the next Buddha will not take the form of an individual. The next Buddha may take the form of a community, a community practicing understanding and lovingkindness, a community practicing mindful living. And the practice can be carried out as a group, as a city, as a nation.

At this point, the emergent form is uncertain but there is little doubt, as we face planetary challenges of pandemics and climate change and biodiversity loss, that Homo Sapiens as a species has entered a Great Initiation from me-to-we. You raise what I now see as a false dichotomy of whether this will be attained by imposed government regulation or imposed cultural/societal taboo as compared to a free-choice 'want' and individual 'hero's journey'. Returning to Wade Davis, he clearly sees a decline in American effectiveness and dominance of the (Western) individualist mindset and a rising Chinese effectiveness, which is also revealed in generally strong Asian (both autocratic and democratic) collectivist response to the covid pandemic. It is worth taking the time to hear or read the full Mongabay interview with him followed by this corroborating recent report on China. Please note, in order to avoid a left/right pissing match, that both the autocratic and democratic Eastern countries imposing strong rapid government regulation performed much better than the EU and America. AND, the Asian regulatory response was well supported by the general population. Trust was a key factor, which is also critically involved in a transition from me-to-we. It's not just about the so-called 'sanctity of individual free will' -- it's about what it means to be and by what means will arise a collectively-responsible species involving all (or most) of its individuals. One does not learn parenthood from desire; one learns it by becoming a parent. We are now in a birth labor process. How, might it unfold? I believe it will occur via adapting to events:

In my dream I saw a vast plain with many people milling about in ordinary ways on a flat with no vegetation or critters, more like a giant plaza. Suddenly, a sinkhole appeared, expanding and swallowing the center. The people retreated farther until all were equidistant from the old center and standing holding hands in awe of the wonder and terror of what had happened.

What would I teach the children? I would teach them to hold hands and pay attention. And, above all, I would work/play to allow and encourage them to develop their future. That's my vision.


This brings us back to the question of spiritual development and so-called 'adulthood'. I do not presume to know or speculate on your developmental process, Cleric. I do not know the extent it is based on speculation or actual experience but until I learn more of your experience from you I have no idea if I grok your process. I have reported my experience elsewhere in this forum and I have no need to report all the details here. Basically, 39 years ago as a secular Jewish atheist-leaning 43 year-old, I had a life-altering dream in which I was visited be a beautiful Forest Queen who I instantly grokked as the Mother of Jesus. This was so shocking that I wondered if it was going to spoil what had been a lovely forest meditation dream. I almost judgmentally rejected it but my childlike curiosity prevailed and I allowed it to change me forever, to this day it is still unfolding. Thus, I see my development as dependent on guarding and protecting that magical child of God who is within me and all. Perhaps, this is what you mean by spiritual adulthood? If so, then yes, I grok what you mean.

Although I am familiar with mediumistic practices and have incorporated, been guided by and consulted with disincarnate spirit beings, I have no personal experience of my own past lives, if indeed there were any. Therefore, although your storyline of karmic development through other lives is lovely, I cannot say that I grok it through my own personal experience. But, I am privileged indeed that so much great good fortune has been bestowed on a kid like me.

OK, that my best shot. Thanks for prodding it out of me.
Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love
User avatar
AshvinP
Posts: 5478
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:00 am
Location: USA

Re: Rudolf Steiner's Fifth Gospel by John David Ebert

Post by AshvinP »

Lou Gold wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 8:26 pm I met some of the Kogi in Brasilia, Brazil at a gathering of the International Council of Indigenous Grandmothers, which was made both possible and poignant by modern technology, which allowed us to gather seeking collaboration rather than conquest.
That's the point. Would it have been better if you never had a chance to visit and collaborate with the Kogi, and everyone remained in their isolated tribal divisions?

I will deftly sidestep your political comments about China, other than to say we have no idea who "performed much better" or if that is even relevant to the metaphysical individualism v. collectivism issue.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
User avatar
Lou Gold
Posts: 2025
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:18 pm

Re: Rudolf Steiner's Fifth Gospel by John David Ebert

Post by Lou Gold »

AshvinP wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 8:55 pm
Lou Gold wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 8:26 pm I met some of the Kogi in Brasilia, Brazil at a gathering of the International Council of Indigenous Grandmothers, which was made both possible and poignant by modern technology, which allowed us to gather seeking collaboration rather than conquest.
That's the point. Would it have been better if you never had a chance to visit and collaborate with the Kogi, and everyone remained in their isolated tribal divisions?
I must honestly say that, given the damage that has also been technologically wrought upon the earth, I'm not sure the benefits were worth the costs. However, given that the past is past and the future beckons better, I'm pleased that the techno-now made the gathering possible. BTW, the Kogi chose to leave their tribal isolation only because the 'Younger Brother' tribe was wreaking havoc and not to overcome tribal divisions, which they began to do long ago.
Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love
User avatar
Cleric K
Posts: 1657
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:40 pm

Re: Rudolf Steiner's Fifth Gospel by John David Ebert

Post by Cleric K »

Thanks, David, :)

I'm practically in harmony with all your quotes
David_Sundaram wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:40 pm From my point of view, what you have presented and argued for so far is what I argue against in my treatise as being too nice-nice-pollyanna-unrealistic. Reprising said 'argument' for anyone else interested:
I see. Yes, I suppose that's how it might have sounded. But if I had to explain Love in depth, my posts would have to quadruple in length.
Personally I don't have problem with Matthew 5:43-48. It's just about having the knowledge that these enemy fragments of the Tree of Life are work in progress - just like we are. In this sense, one can still Love because even in them, the Entity is hidden and as a matter of fact we'll have the future task to rescue them. Of course, you are perfectly right that we should not give them our "shirts". Probably the best practical analogy is parental love. Parents should know how to be severe and even punish the child. Although in the short term they seem bad it is just because their love has the long term development of the child in mind (unfortunately, more and more parents are too soft-hearted to educate their children and simply satisfy all their whims. No wonder why we have generations of spoiled individuals, seeing the world as amusement park created for the satisfaction of their passions)
David_Sundaram wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:40 pm One doesn't have to 'buy into' every aspect of the schema of post-incarnational-Life I present to engage with my 'points' in the above regard. C'mon man, show ''us' (everyone) here your proposal of 'the way' to a better quality of interactive Life-Life here.
Let's start by saying that Love and Joy is the inevitable effect of integration of consciousness - experiencing within ourselves the reverberations of all beings. But there's a problem if we set maximizing Love and Joy as immediate target. You are a physicist so I'll use this example: the problem of local maxima. Your philosophy presents the Life process as function optimization problem.

For those unfamiliar with these concepts, consider this layman example. Imagine that you are a hiker and your mission is to maximize your altitude, that is - climb the highest peak. But imagine that there's dense fog. At your current location you can see the steepness around you but only up to few meters away. You have no choice but start going in the direction where the steepness goes up. Continue doing this until you reach a point where all around you the terrain goes down - this means you've stepped at the peak. But there's a problem. How can we be sure that that there's no other peak taller than ours? It could be very close. Or it could be in the next mountain. We can't say, our vision is very limited. If our peak is some mediocre peak, it can be called a local maximum. But the true maximum altitude can be somewhere else at the global maximum.

The philosophy of maximizing Love and Joy misses something. The deed of Christ can only be comprehended in its archetypal depth, if the problem of sacrifice, death and resurrection is understood. If we set on to maximize Love and Joy, we'll be continually trying to climb upwards. But we can get stuck at a local maximum. What then? We'll have to go down again and lose altitude - that's sacrifice. As a matter of fact our, evolution requires a lot of sacrifice. If we simply set out target for maximizing Love and Joy, we'll almost inevitably fall into the local maximum trap.

What is the fog? It's the limitation of our consciousness. How do we clear the fog? By working on ourselves. Some of this seeing farther is instinctive in most people. For example, if a woman was not ready to make a sacrifice, to experience the pain of birth and the hardships of raising a child, if she was looking for that which would increase her Love and Joy with every single step, humankind would be long extinct. The mother takes on all pain and suffering (going downhill) willfully because she knows instinctively that after all that, she'll climb at a higher peak.

As long as we are equipped only with the senses and our intuitive thinking, we can never see far enough. To say that maximizing Love and Joy is the goal, is easy. It's an obvious truth, general truth. It's like saying: we should make the world a better place. The problems begin when the general knowledge begins to confront reality. Then we see that we have to creatively solve a riddle at every instant - how to conduct our spiritual activity so that in the long term the High Ideal is being approached. And to be able to know in what direction to go, we must expand our consciousness, so that we can know the direction of the Higher peak.

I'll stop here. I actually had written more things but it was simply getting too long again and scrapped them all :) Lou, no I don't love unleashing torrents of words :)) It actually causes me pain. I dream of the time when we'll be able to transfer an idea as a single symbol, densely packed with meaning.

So David, I haven't answered you question. I tried but it simply could not fit in few paragraphs :) I'll have to write something at least as long as your treatise, in order to make the point clear. Otherwise everything will be understood in very one-sided way, like the pollyanna love.

I'll only state (without any support) that spiritual perception reveals that our evolution is riding on specific rhythmic processes of the macrocosm, which influence periods like the explosion of Greek philosophy, the concentration of the "I" thanks to monotheism, the development of science, etc. All these things, when looked at purely historically, seem quite random but are in fact gradual steps of a grand Cosmic Plan that gradually leads man to higher and higher stages of consciousness. In this respect, although it is perfectly true that in general, humanity will be moving towards greater and greater Love and Joy, we'll never be able to achieve that, unless we grow in consciousness and participate in the next rhythmic period that we are now entering. Previous periods were playing out completely unconsciously for man. The Greeks were not conscious why they experienced such a strong love for wisdom - philo sophia - they were simply being inspired from the Spiritual World. Everything is completely logical and natural in retrospect. But that's simply because we are observing a chain of logically ordered events. Everything seems logical in retrospect! We never ask what else could have happened. We accept it's natural that an ape should evolve thinking and start asking questions about the universe (not endorsing the ape theory here). We don't think about other alternatives, such as the ape becoming better and better biorobot, perfected in survival, without the need for any questions about anything else. Nevertheless, these things are perceptible in the Spiritual World, just as the fact that plants grow because of Sunlight, is perceptible in the physical.

The big difference in our time is, that man has reached a level of self-awareness at which it no longer makes any sense to be guided externally. This would mean that we should stay at our current level of consciousness - having sensory perceptions and thinking about them with our self-conscious "I". The problem of death will forever remain unresolved. Humans must investigate the spiritual structure of themselves and the Cosmos and guide themselves into the next period, which will resolve the problem of death that is currently splitting our reality in two. Not by developing a lofty intellectual theory of the beyond but by bridging the stages of consciousness that death separates.
User avatar
Cleric K
Posts: 1657
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:40 pm

Re: Rudolf Steiner's Fifth Gospel by John David Ebert

Post by Cleric K »

Lou Gold wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 8:26 pm OK, that my best shot. Thanks for prodding it out of me.
Thank you, Lou :)

I understand your position now. I'm not going to unleash anything :)) It's more than enough that we have the opportunity here to share our views.

+~
User avatar
AshvinP
Posts: 5478
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:00 am
Location: USA

Re: Rudolf Steiner's Fifth Gospel by John David Ebert

Post by AshvinP »

Lou Gold wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 9:14 pm
AshvinP wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 8:55 pm
Lou Gold wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 8:26 pm I met some of the Kogi in Brasilia, Brazil at a gathering of the International Council of Indigenous Grandmothers, which was made both possible and poignant by modern technology, which allowed us to gather seeking collaboration rather than conquest.
That's the point. Would it have been better if you never had a chance to visit and collaborate with the Kogi, and everyone remained in their isolated tribal divisions?
I must honestly say that, given the damage that has also been technologically wrought upon the earth, I'm not sure the benefits were worth the costs. However, given that the past is past and the future beckons better, I'm pleased that the techno-now made the gathering possible. BTW, the Kogi chose to leave their tribal isolation only because the 'Younger Brother' tribe was wreaking havoc and not to overcome tribal divisions, which they began to do long ago.
Right, and if you are not sure, then there is a real possibility that it was worth it and we cannot grasp exactly why or how, either due to some fundamental 'gap' between phenomenon and noumenon and/or some deeply ingrained unwillingness on our part in the modern era which still lingers around us. And the question still remains, given the past is the past, and it seems one of our fundamental tasks is to transform the future into the present, are we participating in a purposeful metaphysical order, as Cleric describes in his last post, or a random and uncaring universe? If it is the former, then the real possibility that the benefits were worth it becomes much more likely to be true.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
Post Reply