Consciousness matters

[AshvinP]

I guess one possible interpretation is that the CA of another being, no doubt more powerful than us, is being 'channeled' through each unit in question, and since the units appear to differ upon direct or indirect observation, the CA being channeled must be distinguishable in some respect. Whether that amounts to something it feels like to be a rock or an atom is an open question.

Yet another take could be that the CA of a psyche is not necessarily associated with such units of consciousness, unless it is expressing through a corporeal life-form, in which case such units represent the phenomenal appearance of the life-form, rather than the psyche's quiddity. However, such units represented as the phenomenal appearance of a rock does not necessarily mean that a rock is representative of a psyche ~ which would jibe with BK's model.

The rock may not represent a dissociated alter psyche, but, under idealism, it must be associated with some CA of some psyche, right? Now perhaps we do not perceive the rock in its fullness, only by its exterior surface which does not appear to have any interiority, but that would more likely be a limitation of our own perceptual interface than a limitation of the rock's essence.

[Soul_of_Shu]

The rock may not represent a dissociated alter psyche, but, under idealism, it must be associated with some CA of some psyche, right? Now perhaps we do not perceive the rock in its fullness, only by its exterior surface which does not appear to have any interiority, but that would more likely be a limitation of our own perceptual interface than a limitation of the rock's essence.

Yes, a rock would represent some sort of ideation/excitation within Mind at large, which one could conceivably feel into, just not the ipseity of a 'partitioned' psyche.

[David_Sundaram]

I've read all of the Seth books, and I would call him an idealist, and not a panpsychist. Of course, the label 'panpsychist' has various meanings, but the kind I am referring to are those who think there are fundamentally only material subatomic particles that also have some sort of simple conscious property, which when combined produce more elaborate conscious entities, such as ourselves. This implies that on death, we cease to exist, which of course Seth would deny.

The fact that BK does not ascribe consciousness to atoms, while Seth does, is just a difference between what an analytic idealist can say and what one can get from revelation. BK is restricted in his analytic idealism to what the general public will regard as empirical evidence, and nothing in, say, a rock looks to our limited minds like conscious activity. So for BK to ascribe consciousness to an atom goes beyond what he can justify, and so it is wise of him, in my opinion, to not do so. For us mere mortals the question must remain open.

Thank you, Scott, for explaining how the term 'panpsychist' is understood and used in this 'circle'. I, obviously, have understood it to mean that all 'being', not just beings that are 'seen' as being 'made' of 'matter' to be 'consciously' relationally engaged with Life (which of course includes others.

I am aware of and keenly appreciate the reasons for BK's choices in the above regard. That unfortunately rules 'out' his engagement with ideas that that soar beyond the scope of "mere" (self-centered?) "mortality", which I think will (if and as his ideas are the only one's that are 'adopted') result in a 'domain' that is 'dominated' by mentation-based selfishness which will not be much 'better' qualia-wise than one presently 'dominated' by the body-based kind - in may guestimation , that is. Hence my drum-beating of the idea of (potentially) ever-ongrowing/ongoing, really panpsychic (panentheistic), soul-based being-n-doing.

Some corollaries of idea that 'matter-energy' is 'conscious' (as well), from my book, titled Godspeak 2000:

"The potentially liberating and amendatory truth ... is that every body [or 'form'] in existence is spiritually motivated by a mindfully discriminating intrinsic potency. This was termed ‘atman’ or ‘soul’ by sages of old, who recognized everyone and everything as an immediate expression of the universally present, intelligently creative essence which they understood to be the real meaning of ‘Brahman’ and ‘God’. But, because such words have been misappropriated by cus­tom and their significance sometimes grossly distorted by mis­usage, I generally refer to it alter­natively, as Intelligence, Creativity, Life Itself or the Life-Force. However labeled, it
is the source ‘element’ from which all Being springs, the core I-Am-That-I-Am, That Which Is at root within each and everyone. (Though the full import of this cause of all causes may yet escape you, the following review and analysis of our catalog of scientific knowledge should at least make its fundamental character obvious.)

Even the simplest cases of what’s called gravitational attraction provide perfect illustration, if viewed without prejudice. Bodies of matter-energy must move themselves, for nothing really pushes or pulls them one towards the other.a And they must perceive both presence and relative location, else they could not attempt to move as they do, with an acceleration pro­portionate to the mass and proximity and in the direction of coexisting others.

Electromagnetic and nuclear interactions, where repulsion occurs as well, are additionally revealing. Ongoing scientific investigation has led us to understand the fact that sense perceptions are basically ‘gross’ acknowledgments, and that everything is fundamentally a wave-form and nothing is actually solid at core.a So, besides there being no substantive means to constitutionally link those bodies which form conglomerates, there is no real ‘boundary’ that so‑called objects bump into when they apparently bounce off one another. The only inference this permits, if one has enough courage and faith in Life not to invent extrinsic agency as a false postulate, is that the movements that bodies make and the stations they take result from the impulses and choices of discerning, autogenic ‘interiors’.

The direction and purpose of such inherent power and intentionality can be deduced from the cumulation and trend of results which have so far occurred. Pro­gressively, the creative essence of Being has conspired to form an array of what, because of our material orientation, we’ve called ‘sub-atomic particles’; these have interacted and engaged in such ways as to produce ‘electrons’, ‘protons’ and ‘neutrons’ which, in turn, have combined to create the various ‘atoms’ and ‘molecules’ we have become familiar with; and these, through more concerted effort, have coalesced into cellular and multi-cellular units, in stages, generating ever more complex aggregations of body, mind and spirit—the whole hierarchy and procession we know as Life.

In ascending sequence, with prior developments integrated and built upon, ‘bodies’ have become more coordinated, ‘spirits’ more potent, ‘minds’ more perceptive, resident Intelligence more designful and adept. Even what some call ‘simple’ single-celled organisms are architectural masters capable of cognizing, culling and compiling environ­mental ingredients so as to reproduce themselves and further their particular line of development. Each succeeding level of integration further demonstrates the aim of the impetus inherent within all being—that is, to seek and establish cooperative affiliation with suitable others in order to enhance creativity and increase the degree of intelligent actualization.

Life’s evolutionary accomplishments in such pursuit are extremely varied in range and infinitely diverse; and, because of the involuted nature of their interconnectedness and interdependence, the ways in which its many forms and levels are related cannot be simply stated. Generally speak­ing, however, one might say that ‘lesser’ combina­tions of body, mind and spirit tend to be incorporated by, and serve to sustain, those more comprehensively developed. With their more energized spirits, more mobile bodies and more dimensional minds, for example, animals prevail over vege­tation for the most part; and the more capable among them prevail over the rest.

Members of our species stand at the peak of a fantastic living pyramid, borne by the earth and sustained by energy continually streaming from the sun. Cresting a progression that has taken place over aeons and ages,a we have emerged ascendant, capable of much more than great physical dexterity and coordination. Our laughter and our tears demonstrate, in dimensions of Mind and Spirit, how far beyond its other earthly manifestations Intelligence has devel­oped in the process of becoming human.

We are in a preeminent position because our Intel­ligence is more capable. Knowing the habits and tendencies of animals, we can hunt and herd them for everything from milk and manure to skins and meat. Knowing the proclivities of plants and trees, we can sow and reap them for food, shelter and variety of drink. And, knowing the patterns and affinities of atoms and molecules, we can manipulate and reorder them to fulfill practically every structural possibility we desire.

What’s more, because we can categorize and communicate aspects of experience using sounds and word-symbols strung together in sentences and paragraphs, knowledge gained by any member of our species is poten­tially available to everyone. We can thereby transcend limitations inherent in the ‘me’ of self and the ‘here and now’ of immediate perception. And because we can logically contemplate concepts of ‘before’ and ‘after’ and system­ati­cally correlate effects with causes, projecting any imaginable ‘if’ into the latent potentials of every possible ‘then’, we can also transcend the circumstantial limits of prior experience and conditioning. In sum, because we can broadly compre­hend the significance of past patterns, current trends and future portents, we are capable of knowingly choosing the path to optimal actualization."