Observation, logic, folklore and presuppositions

Any topics primarily focused on metaphysics can be discussed here, in a generally casual way, where conversations may take unexpected turns.

Moderator: Soul_of_Shu

User avatar
AshvinP
Posts: 3316
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:00 am
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: observtiton, logic, folklore and presuppositions

Post by AshvinP »

Jim Cross wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:57 pm
Martin_ wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:02 pm
AshvinP wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:34 pm


True indeed. The fact is, skin color is never mentioned as a cause of spiritual lagging by Steiner and in his framework, as Elyosha expressed, all is responsible for all.
Then how would you resolve the following (translated) quote from Steiner?
One can only understand history and all of social life, including today’s
social life, if one pays attention to people’s racial characteristics. And one
can only understand all that is spiritual in the correct sense if one first
examines how this spiritual element operates within people precisely
through the color of their skin.
(Staudenmaier: Race and Redemption: Racial and Ethnic Evolution in Rudolf Steiner's Anthroposophy, p17 (Eugene's 2nd link))
Seems racist to me.

I could probably overlook it as a product of European thinking of the time except the Steinerists want us to think that the old man was infallible.

It is one thing to read Steiner, maybe gain some insights and ideas, but another thing to slavishly quote everything he writes as prophetic and correct. Then it becomes unhealthy and cultish. This is probably why BK wants to keep his distance from it.

No doubt there are some here who believe themselves to be reincarnations of teachers specifically brought to humanity at this time to educate us. A free thinking forum may not be the best place for someone who is already sure about everything.

Cleric has already explained these things multiple times in long detailed posts on this forum, including on this thread. I would quote them here but I know you guys won't read them for comprehension, so there is no point. It's hard enough to get you (Jim) to understand basic metphysical idealist claims, so there is really no point in trying with you. Your inability to understand what Steiner is speaking of here is, unsurprisingly, related to your refusal to read him or to try and understand anything about his spiritual evolutionary framework. And what he says is nothing shocking... modern secular scientists have tied ethnicity to cognitive intelligence in a million different verifiable ways. Yes, these are uncomfortable facts for modern PC culture, but they exist and no person who ignores them altogether is actually doing science. And it's not about physicalist biology, because we recognize the Reality of soul and spirit, which are fluid, evolving, and therefore integrating aspects of the human organism. Anyone who fails to consider these aspects is simply adopting physicalism, plain and simple. The difference is the secular scientists have no idea why these facts exist or if they will ever be overcome through the cognitive integration of differences, while Steiner provides logically reasoned answers to those questions. Ironically, people's refusal to consider those answers, and instead project abstract theoretical "racism" everywhere they look, reinforcing the worst prejudice of "collective guilt", is what will ensure actual, real-life, concrete racism and prejudice of all sort, in the exact same bloody manner as happened throughout the last century.
"To think what is true, to sense what is beautiful and to want what is good, hereby the spirit finds purpose of a life in reason.”
Ben Iscatus
Posts: 408
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:15 pm

Re: observtiton, logic, folklore and presuppositions

Post by Ben Iscatus »

So why do you two even pretend like you are familiar with his work in the above comments?
No, I do remember him from years ago, and through my old interest in theosophy. I even have one of his books somewhere. Of course I know he talks about elementals! Otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned it.

Instead of always saying, "You idiots know nothing, belt up!" , why not apply your wisdom to the point about how you'd expect BK, in this day and age, to acceptably associate himself with people who claim to interact with elementals?
User avatar
AshvinP
Posts: 3316
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:00 am
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: observtiton, logic, folklore and presuppositions

Post by AshvinP »

Ben Iscatus wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:35 pm
So why do you two even pretend like you are familiar with his work in the above comments?
No, I do remember him from years ago, and through my old interest in theosophy. I even have one of his books somewhere. Of course I know he talks about elementals! Otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned it.

Instead of always saying, "You idiots know nothing, belt up!" , why not apply your wisdom to the point about how you'd expect BK, in this day and age, to acceptably associate himself with people who claim to interact with elementals?

Seriously, Ben? That you can remember he mentions "elementals" somewhere is supposed to indicate your familiarity with his work? You can't even remember the name of the book you have.

We are not asking BK to associate with anyone. We are asking him to simply read PoF and consider the strictly philosophical arguments. Or even read one of Cleric's essays which never mention Steiner, like Deep MAL essay. Steiner can be left out of it altogether. BK can just say he came across new logical arguments which revealed Schop's critical idealism failed to perceive the noumenal role of Thinking. Steiner never has to be mentioned. But he has not done that and neither have you. If you have, then please summarize the basic arguments in PoF (without copying and pasting someone else's summary). We can let FB evaluate your understanding as a neutral party. If he concludes you are familiar, then I will admit my error and apologize. Or you can just admit now that you have no idea what the PoF argument is...
"To think what is true, to sense what is beautiful and to want what is good, hereby the spirit finds purpose of a life in reason.”
User avatar
Soul_of_Shu
Posts: 1881
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:48 pm
Contact:

Re: observtiton, logic, folklore and presuppositions

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

AshvinP wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:53 pmLet's be honest, you guys simply don't read anything Steiner writes. If I asked you to summarize his main work, Philosophy of Freedom, which contains absolutely no specific spiritual claims, you wouldn't be able to do it.
For the record, as you know, I've listened to an audio version of PoF, and explored parts of the online PDF copy, which for the most part I find resonates with the insights that I'd come to before ever reading it, and which both you and Cleric have helped to clarify in your own summaries. However, none of it changes the impression of Steiner that I've shared in the comment I made, in reply to Jim, previous to this one. So I'm curious what you make of those impressions, seeing Steiner as both brilliant and flawed, as brief as they may be?
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
User avatar
Martin_
Posts: 238
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:54 pm

Re: observtiton, logic, folklore and presuppositions

Post by Martin_ »

AshvinP wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:11 pm
Jim Cross wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:57 pm
Martin_ wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:02 pm
Then how would you resolve the following (translated) quote from Steiner?

(Staudenmaier: Race and Redemption: Racial and Ethnic Evolution in Rudolf Steiner's Anthroposophy, p17 (Eugene's 2nd link))
Seems racist to me.

I could probably overlook it as a product of European thinking of the time except the Steinerists want us to think that the old man was infallible.

It is one thing to read Steiner, maybe gain some insights and ideas, but another thing to slavishly quote everything he writes as prophetic and correct. Then it becomes unhealthy and cultish. This is probably why BK wants to keep his distance from it.

No doubt there are some here who believe themselves to be reincarnations of teachers specifically brought to humanity at this time to educate us. A free thinking forum may not be the best place for someone who is already sure about everything.

Cleric has already explained these things multiple times in long detailed posts on this forum, including on this thread. I would quote them here but I know you guys won't read them for comprehension, so there is no point. It's hard enough to get you (Jim) to understand basic metphysical idealist claims, so there is really no point in trying with you. Your inability to understand what Steiner is speaking of here is, unsurprisingly, related to your refusal to read him or to try and understand anything about his spiritual evolutionary framework. And what he says is nothing shocking... modern secular scientists have tied ethnicity to cognitive intelligence in a million different verifiable ways. Yes, these are uncomfortable facts for modern PC culture, but they exist and no person who ignores them altogether is actually doing science. And it's not about physicalist biology, because we recognize the Reality of soul and spirit, which are fluid, evolving, and therefore integrating aspects of the human organism. Anyone who fails to consider these aspects is simply adopting physicalism, plain and simple. The difference is the secular scientists have no idea why these facts exist or if they will ever be overcome through the cognitive integration of differences, while Steiner provides logically reasoned answers to those questions. Ironically, people's refusal to consider those answers, and instead project abstract theoretical "racism" everywhere they look, reinforcing the worst prejudice of "collective guilt", is what will ensure actual, real-life, concrete racism and prejudice of all sort, in the exact same bloody manner as happened throughout the last century.
I understand what your'e getting at, Ashvin, but nevertheless, correlating skin color with spiritual capacity is a hard sell these days.
"I don't understand." /Unknown
Jim Cross
Posts: 670
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:36 pm

Re: observtiton, logic, folklore and presuppositions

Post by Jim Cross »

Ashvin,

You've completely ruined Steiner for me. I'll never be able to approach him with an open mind. Thanks.
User avatar
AshvinP
Posts: 3316
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:00 am
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: observtiton, logic, folklore and presuppositions

Post by AshvinP »

Martin_ wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:55 pm I understand what your'e getting at, Ashvin, but nevertheless, correlating skin color with spiritual capacity is a hard sell these days.
Martin,

There is no correlation with spiritual capacity in our epoch. As Dana noticed, that would make no sense if someone like myself, clearly of non-white skin color, is also capable of understanding PoF, spiritual science, or developing imaginative cognition. There must be who knows how many non-white people alive today who have developed higher cognition. So that is simply a false understanding that is being perpetuated by Eugene, Jim, etc.
"To think what is true, to sense what is beautiful and to want what is good, hereby the spirit finds purpose of a life in reason.”
User avatar
Cleric K
Posts: 880
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:40 pm

Re: observtiton, logic, folklore and presuppositions

Post by Cleric K »

Ben Iscatus wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:35 pm Instead of always saying, "You idiots know nothing, belt up!" , why not apply your wisdom to the point about how you'd expect BK, in this day and age, to acceptably associate himself with people who claim to interact with elementals?
Ben, your own statement precisely exemplifies the very thing you protest against.

The above simply refuses even for a second to open up for the possibility that what is called 'elementals', just maybe, could be phenomena which are experiential reality in a different kind consciousness.

The fallacy of the above objection is the exact same as the materialist who imagines God as bearded man in the clouds and then calls people of faith idiots. It's the same with elementals - just because we imagine some absurd caricature (we have no other choice because we use our sensory intellect to imagine it) we think that that is what Steiner described. In other words, we think of Steiner as having the same caricature fantasies as we ourselves imagine, but he being crazy enough to believe they are real.

Let's bring things much closer to our everyday experience. Instead of saying "thinking creates elementals", let's say "thinking creates thoughts". Now we can ask the same question like this: in this day and age how could we expect BK (or anyone else) to acceptably associate himself with people who claim that thinking creates thoughts? After all, every thinker today who is in his right mind, knows that thoughts are only the result of brain activity/energy/MAL/God/you name it.

If we can't sense the tragic way in which things are inverted today when someone maintains the last sentence above, it is absolutely impossible to speak in any meaningful way about elementals or anything else.
User avatar
AshvinP
Posts: 3316
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:00 am
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: observtiton, logic, folklore and presuppositions

Post by AshvinP »

Jim Cross wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:57 pm Ashvin,

You've completely ruined Steiner for me. I'll never be able to approach him with an open mind. Thanks.
Like you were going to anyway :)

But you and Eugene simply don't seem to get that we don't care about or want anyone to accept our claims here. As Cleric mentions often, that would negate the entire value of people discovering these things as inner knowledge and wisdom from within themselves, which will happen sooner or later. These spirit-soul realities will become more and more obvious as evolution continues. We are offering it right now as free insights out of gratitude that it was offered to us. The benefits of actually coming to these realizations infinitely outweigh the ego-boost from having people "follow" us on internet forums or tell us that we are right. I am simply grateful that I am just now starting to dimly experience some of those benefits, while seeing in examples like Cleric, through my Reason, that there are many more which will naturally unfold if I remain patient, disciplined, devoted, and deeply thoughtful.
"To think what is true, to sense what is beautiful and to want what is good, hereby the spirit finds purpose of a life in reason.”
User avatar
Soul_of_Shu
Posts: 1881
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:48 pm
Contact:

Re: observtiton, logic, folklore and presuppositions

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

Martin_ wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:55 pm I understand what your'e getting at, Ashvin, but nevertheless, correlating skin color with spiritual capacity is a hard sell these days.
Ya think?! Assuming the following quote from a Steiner lecture is not an entire fabrication made up by some detractor to give a false impression of him, who will dare to tweet this out into the twitterverse, and sell it as based on spiritual science, and not just unfounded speculation made up on the spur of the moment based on what it was believed the audience wished to hear?

In a 1922 lecture at the headquarters of the Anthroposophical movement in Dornach,
Switzerland, Steiner made the following claims:

"Recently I went into a bookstore in Basel and found an example of the
latest publishing agenda: a Negro novel, just as the Negroes in general
are entering into European civilization step by step! Everywhere Negro
dances are being performed, Negro dances are being hopped. But we
even have this Negro novel already. It is utterly boring, dreadfully boring,
but people devour it. I am personally convinced that if we get more
Negro novels, and give these Negro novels to pregnant women to read
during the first phase of pregnancy, when as you know they can
sometimes develop such cravings, if we give these Negro novels to
pregnant women to read, then it won’t even be necessary for Negroes to
come to Europe in order for mulattoes to appear. Simply through the
spiritual effects of reading Negro novels, a multitude of children will be
born in Europe that are completely gray, that have mulatto hair, that
look like mulattoes!"
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
Post Reply