Essay: Man, Know Thyself

[David_Sundaram]

My point is that use, abuse and the need for discernment exist at all levels, in all directions in a great mysteriousness in which everything is connected.

Ahh! I didn't have the time-energy-inclination to wade through the hour+ of Pagel's 'dissertation'.
Yes! ,,, Xceptin' to the idea of 'mysteriousness' - said 'connection' is a 'no-brainer' to me.

[David_Sundaram]

Brilliantly envisioned and eloquently said, Cleric!

Through the efforts of beings from on all stages of evolution, the complicated biological gradient has become possible which allows the Spirit to experience itself ...

... Now the Spirit locked in all these mineral, plant, animal and human forms will have to be redempted to its non-decohered state. So when the "I" becomes conscious of its own physicality in the Heavenly sense, the work for the gradual work of redemption and spiritualization of the Earthly realm also begins.

Re'deemed', indeed! ... 'deem' as in https://www.yourdictionary.com/deem

Your saying the above reminded me of my saying (in my book):

"You may do so by yourself or with the help of understanding others. Either way, it is essential that you register and keep being conscious of the ramifications of the fact that all that the world is and all that transpires within it is the cumulative result of what has, from moment to moment since time began, been attitudinally entertained and inten­tionally purposed. What you encounter in Life and what you ‘naturally’ think, feel and do (or fail to), at any given point, is the result of prior psychospiritual program­ming—that of antecedent others, your own till the present, and that of those you’ve been or still are involved with and related to. Therefore, though all things not contrary to Life Itself are possible,a they are not necessarily so in short order. As any­one wishing to be an artist must do with his or her medium, to be creative, you must learn to work with the impetus of history, as it pertains to you and those around you in particular.

It may, and usually does, therefore take a fair amount of time and thoughtful dedication to bring about constructive change, especially if your goal is grand and your aim far‑reaching. You must pace yourself and maintain your morale as you make your way. Creative process is more like a long-distance, cross-country journey, in which one must get through dense woods and across rivers and ravines (occasion­ally even deserts and mountains), than a flat-out 100-meter run.

If you are going to make significant progress, it is essential that you develop and sustain the kinds of attitude and intention that will enable you to recover from mishaps and setbacks and keep moving forward despite hindrance and adversity. Among other things, this means that, while fully recognizing the relative unimportance of each particular step that you take and therefore being relaxed regarding and indifferent to immediate result,b you must nevertheless assid­uously at­tempt whatever you think will lead to the best possible outcome at each point en route. For this to be the case, in addition to faith, hope, appreciation and understand­ing, which I have already emphasized, steadfast determination is also requisite in good measure."

Tally-Ho, Everyone!

[Lou Gold]

My point is that use, abuse and the need for discernment exist at all levels, in all directions in a great mysteriousness in which everything is connected.

Ahh! I didn't have the time-energy-inclination to wade through the hour+ of Pagel's 'dissertation'.
Yes! ,,, Xceptin' to the idea of 'mysteriousness' - said 'connection' is a 'no-brainer' to me.

It is a 'no-brainer' if the 'brain' is thought to be fundamental, which I believe is the point of idealism. On the other hand, to say that the 'mysteriousness' is fundamental is NOT to say that the discovery of experience within it is not important or meaningful. Ever-expanding relationship is the path and it's lovely, indeed!

[Lou Gold]

On the other hand, after the "I" was fully incarnated in the temporal, for the first time in the Christ event, consciousness gradually finds itself as embedded within time. Cycles turn out to be more like spirals. They don't repeat indefinitely but every cycle brings something new - it does not end where it started. Now time and timelessness should be gradually integrated through evolution, not by escaping after death but by finding the timeless Spirit within the physical.

You 'nailed' * it (IMO), Cleric! Xeptin' I would say "in time" instead of "within the physical", albeit I think we are talkin' about the same thang.

* (Copied from http://lovebound.org/thecross.html :

"Many people might associate the cross with Christianity, as a symbol of Jesus'
crucifixion. However, the cross (as a symbol) is much older than that.

It might have more meaning than just one, but the main meaning is as follows:

The horizontal line symbolises the flow of time as we know it here on Earth.
Actually, the line should be a circle, a ring (see the explanation below).

The vertical line symbolises the evolution of the spirit. Symbolically, at
the bottom of the vertical line is a very low energy state (" hell ") and at the top
is the highest energy state (" Godhood ").

Where the two lines intersect, there is the Now, the present moment (this
particular cross shows the symbol of heart there).

Along the horizontal line is the flow of " Earth " time: past to the left of the
heart; present in the middle, where the heart is; future to the right of the heart.
In other words, the horizontal line symbolises the flow of material existence.

Along the vertical line is the flow of the spirit's evolution. For the spirit there
is no past-present-future flow of time: there is only the Now. In other words,
the vertical line symbolises your spiritual evolution.

Our goal is to evolve spiritually (as the spirits we actually are).

Every moment you make choices. In a very simplified way, when you make
material choices (like buying stuff, making money, playing cards, etc) you
move along the horizontal (time) line; when you make spiritual choices (like
healing, meditating, loving, etc) you move up the vertical line.
People, whose intent is to evolve spiritually, want to move up along
the vertical line as much as possible. People, who forgot their true nature
and imprisoned themselves in hogging material possession, move along
the horizontal " time " line in an endless circle, without moving up along
the vertical line.

Because we live in a material world, and need to buy material stuff and make
money, as well, our " Earth life path " resembles more of an upward spiral.

Of course, those that take the material possession hogging too far and
trample on people, may move down the vertical " spiritual evolution " line;
in other words, they may devolve spiritually."

I also see a more traditional meaning of the cross, which can be simplified as a vertical of devotion and a horizontal of relationship and, yes, the vertical deals with the eternal and the horizontal deals with the temporal. Each axis is bidirectional. Bodies learn of spirit and spirit learns of bodies. The liberation occurs in the full realization (awareness) of what one is. Spirit and and matter are connected. Self and other are connected. Every event/experience in the now is a learning. Transcendence is not more important than immanence.

[Lou Gold]

Cleric K wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:04 pm
On the other hand, after the "I" was fully incarnated in the temporal, for the first time in the Christ event, consciousness gradually finds itself as embedded within time. Cycles turn out to be more like spirals. They don't repeat indefinitely but every cycle brings something new - it does not end where it started. Now time and timelessness should be gradually integrated through evolution, not by escaping after death but by finding the timeless Spirit within the physical.

Cleric, I'm wondering why you believe that the "I" was not fully incarnated in the Buddha event?

[Cleric K]

Cleric, I'm wondering why you believe that the "I" was not fully incarnated in the Buddha event?

This is a perfectly good question, Lou!
Unfortunately it's practically impossible to logically prove this. When one attains to the deeper experience of evolution of consciousness, it is quite clear but this experience can not simply be transplanted to someone else. The most I can do at this moment is to try to describe in very sketchy way how the self experience evolves through the millennia. This is something that can be actually traced through spiritual perception.

To approach the question we may first consider something else. It's possible to trace how our own conscious experience has developed from childhood until the present time. Unfortunately this is not something that can be achieved without effort. The problem is that we can remember only what we have the concepts and thought patterns for. For example, if I know something about math and for some reason I lose my math concepts (say, head trauma) I can no longer remember anything. My memory might be intact but I simply no longer have the concepts to understand it. It is somewhat similar with our child consciousness. As we become more and more entrapped in the purely verbal adult thinking we lose much of the childhood pictorial thinking. We usually remember visuals, events, feelings, etc. but it's not easy to remember exactly how our cognitive process was running. Nevertheless, these memories are accessible. When we begin with spiritual-scientific meditative exercises, we gradually develop again pictorial thinking, because it is completely essential for our ability to translate higher experiences into pictures. Together with this we find out that we can remember much more things from our childhood thanks to our more flexible spiritual activity. This process can go beyond our personal life. Through inner effort we can attain to a wider palette of forms of consciousness and this begins to throw light even on times long past.

For example, it's possible to experience the state of consciousness that was the norm at the time of ancient India. In this stage we can experience a state of consciousness that is still much more spiritual. At that time man (or at least the advanced man - the yogi) was still somewhat conscious of his spiritual nature and how the sensory images were alluring him. It is from this state that the concept of Maya, the illusion, arose. The ancient yogis were still conscious that sense perceptions are a lure, that they don't represent reality, they are only mirror images of the Spiritual World mistaken for reality. Actually the true illusion arises only when men begin to conduct their lives according to these fragmented images, when the souls become filled with desires for the images and the feelings related to them.

This shapes the whole soul mood of the ancient Indian. The ancient yogi feels the downfall and the whole mood of spirituality at that time tries to preserve as much as possible from the spiritual world, which was still perceptible, although already in a dreamy way. In certain sense, the great mission of the Indian spirituality was to counter-balance the descend into the sensory. This could not prevent the descent but at least it was keeping the healthy "parachute action", without which humans would simply degenerate into animalism and savagery, with nothing to counteract it.

Spiritual cognition reveals that in this state man feels his mineral body as something somewhat alien. It would be laughable for the ancient yogi if someone suggested to him that thoughts are born out of the brain. This simply didn't at all correspond to direct experience. Thoughts were purely spiritual elements existing in the soul but at the same time they were not yet felt as proceeding from self-conscious spiritual activity. It is very difficult to explain this to modern humans because already for many centuries, the experience that we think our own thoughts, is taken for granted. But it wasn't always so.

Most of our routine thinking happens quite unobservedly for us. We are focused on the object of thought and we forget that we are performing the thinking activity. Nevertheless, if we pay attention we immediately become conscious of "I think". We can gain a rough analogy for the ancient state, by imagining that the former mode of thought was the norm, although not exactly in the same sense. The ancient soul was feeling the thoughts emerging from the soul in an almost magical way. Man thought about things but the whole thinking process was quite mysterious, it was as the soul was flowing in a stream of inspiration and felt the thoughts organically growing. In certain sense, thinking was something instinctive. It was not felt as if the "I", fully consciously links thought after thought, but it was more like an instinctive urge for the soul to express something and the thoughts would just flow out. Again - this kind of thinking happens even today, when we are not particularly aware of the thinking process but the fact that at any point we can become aware of "I think" makes it different from the ancient mode.

As the millennia passed, thinking was becoming more and more "in focus". The Greeks already had the strong feeling for the nature of this thinking and in certain circumstances it was called "Logos", although they still didn't experience the actual source of thinking, even if thinking itself was already very complex and eloquent. It was similar for the Buddha. He was fully aware that the self image within the body was illusionary and that the true nature of man can only be attained by seeing through that illusion. The teachings of Buddha, as a method of self perfection, are fully relevant today. Yet at the time of Buddha it was still impossible to experience the true source of the thoughts while incarnated. This only becomes possible when the Logos becomes flesh.

We can imagine evolution as two cones approaching their tips, one from above, one from below. Below is the lower nature, including the mineral body, above is the spiritual nature. First these cones are separated and moving towards each other. This separation made it possible for the life in the two cones to go in quite different ways. While in the body (in the lower cone) man experienced his spiritual nature shining from 'above' and inspiring the thought flow in him. He could feel that nature but he could not fully comprehend it. It was simply spiritually impossible at that time. Even if he wanted to trace the thoughts to some 'center of origin' he couldn't do it. It's like having spiritual hyperopia (far-sightedness). Perspective of the higher cone, on the other hand, was experienced strictly between death and new birth. Yet there the soul also felt incomplete, there was something within the physical world (the lower cone) that was standing remote and drew the soul back in incarnation.

The Christ event signifies the moment in history when the tips of the two cones touch. Now the bridge between the physical and spiritual becomes possible. Not that they have ever been truly separate but they couldn't not be consciously experienced as one by man - the portal of death stood as a barrier. When the Logos enters the body, the source of thinking can be experienced within that body. This is the turning point between involution and evolution. So far everything was only a preparation for the time when the center of self-conscious activity can be clearly experienced while within a body. Only now can man say "I think" in the fullest sense in the word. Of course, this could be expressed with words like this even in earlier times but the feeling was different. The soul simply couldn't see its reality in the thoughts, it only felt that the thoughts proceeded from its depths. This vagueness, unclarity of the soul's own reality was also the reason that the soul felt itself as distinct from the body. The soul simply felt that its essential nature does not belong to the body, it was experienced as blurring into the spiritual.

Every impulse in evolution adds something new to humanity. The Christ event does not invalidate the teachings of Buddha. The road to self perfection is quite the same - right thought, right action, etc. But now, not everything within the human body is an illusion. Now there's an element of Divinity within the incarnate self - something that has become incorporated in the physical world. And at this point, Buddhism or any other pre-Christ tradition, can become anti-evolutionary if they are perpetuated in the same old form. The reason is simple - they continue to turn away their gaze away from the sensory self, because it's considered an illusion, and keep looking for the spiritual world beyond as reality. What is completely missed, is the fact that the Spiritual World has made contact with the incarnate self. Now there's something living in the body that was previously only expected after death. It's the critical task of humanity to find this point of contact within the individual.

Interestingly, the materialistic brain theory of consciousness could never arise in pre-Christ time. It's only because in our age everyone feels his "I" as thinking within the body, that it's at all possible to imagine that the brain does the thinking. In certain sense, this theory confirms that now man experiences the source of thinking within the physical world. The Greeks were arguing if the seat of the soul was within the brain or the heart but it would be nonsensical to them if suggested that these organs 'create' the soul experience. The soul (psyche) was still a tangible reality for them. Even the atomism of Democritus had special fire atoms that corresponded to the soul. Only because in the last two millennia the "I" was able to experience itself fully within the physical world, was it able to also succumb to the illusion that it is the physical body/brain.

The cones don't stop but continue to interpenetrate each other. In this way the "I", the living Spirit, begins to be creative within the physical realm. This creativity has only very humble beginnings. The "I" can really only create something within the brain at this time - it can transform the brain structure such that it becomes a better and better reflector of the Spiritual World (please note that this is somewhat one-sidedly stated. It's much more complicated). We start from ourselves. If we can't transform creatively our own thoughts, feelings and actions, how can we expect to transform anything outside us? That's where we start from. In the longest run of evolution it'll be our task to gradually spiritualize not only our bodily sheaths but also the whole environment. The reversal of the Fall should be gone through in full consciousness, through our own clear understanding. The consciousness of the embodied and disembodied states would become more and more unified. It will become more like a grander rhythm, similar to the smaller waking/sleeping cycle but without interrupting self-consciousness.


Wow.. this turned out into a torrent of words again... Sorry about that. While I know that this can never be convincing, I hope that it at least gives some food for thought or at least another perspective on the question.

[Lou Gold]

Cleric, I'm wondering why you believe that the "I" was not fully incarnated in the Buddha event?

This is a perfectly good question, Lou!
Unfortunately it's practically impossible to logically prove this. When one attains to the deeper experience of evolution of consciousness, it is quite clear but this experience can not simply be transplanted to someone else. The most I can do at this moment is to try to describe in very sketchy way how the self experience evolves through the millennia. This is something that can be actually traced through spiritual perception.

etc
etc
etc

Wow.. this turned out into a torrent of words again... Sorry about that. While I know that this can never be convincing, I hope that it at least gives some food for thought or at least another perspective on the question.

OK. My purpose is not to challenge your take but, rather, to point out that it is a story. Indeed, it is a religious story and it takes a lot of words for you to explain it (nearly, a full scripture's worth). As such, it violates your stated goal of producing an understanding free of religion. I, personally, am not against religion (although I don't care for religious institutions). I also have had decades of deep introspection. I also have had life altering religious experiences. Jesus, Mary and the Cross entered my heart despite what many Christians have believed and done to other peoples, including my own.

My intention is not a religious feud. To each his own. My personal standard of truth is that what came to me increased my appreciation of Buddha and Lao Tzu and Krishna and Wakan Tanka and others and, more importantly, made me a kinder more generous person. Yes, I prefer the Passion of Christ to the Detachment of Buddha because that's my nature. However, I confess that I learn from both ways and do not see one as fundamentally higher or better than the other. I believe that Jesus and Gautama in their fully realized form would see each other as co-creating brothers.

[Lou Gold]

Cleric,

I'm astonished to hear you say this:

Every impulse in evolution adds something new to humanity. The Christ event does not invalidate the teachings of Buddha. The road to self perfection is quite the same - right thought, right action, etc. But now, not everything within the human body is an illusion. Now there's an element of Divinity within the incarnate self - something that has become incorporated in the physical world. And at this point, Buddhism or any other pre-Christ tradition, can become anti-evolutionary if they are perpetuated in the same old form.

India is the land where the fundamental greeting is namaste meaning, "the sacred in me recognizes the sacred in you". It is also the land where saints like Ramana Maharshi manifest it incarnate. This does not happen because there was a unique Christ moment but because it's a human potential that appears in many places at many times.

[Cleric K]

Indeed, it is a religious story and it takes a lot of words for you to explain it (nearly, a full scripture's worth). As such, it violates your stated goal of producing an understanding free of religion.

I agree that it's a substantial body of knowledge but I wouldn't call it a religion. When Moses was approached by God in the burning bush he had personal revelation. Then he returned with God's commandments and presented them to the people. This is a religion. The reason is that even if someone else went to the same bush, he wouldn't find there God speaking. So the commandments had to be taken of faith.
What I'm speaking of is something that can be experienced by anyone. The path to the states of consciousness is fully disclosed. This makes it a science. One not only presents facts of experience but also the path leading to the facts.
The common objection to spiritual science is that it seems very complicated. But this is only a very stubborn prejudice - that the highest Truth should be so easily accessible that even the last drunkard should be able to comprehend it. When we speak of psychology, technology, biology, ecology, economics, music, arts, etc. even the more naïve people are clear that these things can only be attained through years of study, going to the university and so on. But for some reason, when it's being spoken about the processes and beings of the spiritual depths, it is assumed completely the opposite - that these things should be obvious and simple. Yes, from the point of view of the Godhead everything is simple, its a unity. But our human perspective has a long way to go in that direction and for that reason we must study and explore the spiritual, through the appropriate higher forms of cognition. That's how we can at all know in what direction we should go.

I believe that Jesus and Gautama in their fully realized form would see each other as co-creating brothers.

Here we should make a distinction between Jesus, the highly advanced human being, and the Christ - the macrocosmic Sun Spirit. The Christ incarnated and lived within the bodily sheaths of Jesus for three years - from the baptism at Jordan, to the crucifixion.

India is the land where the fundamental greeting is namaste meaning, "the sacred in me recognizes the sacred in you".

What I've said in no way contradicts this. As I said, in the distant past, the consciousness was much more spiritual, even if somewhat dreamy. The body was felt as something illusionary and the soul as something real, belonging to the Spiritual World. From this soul mood, 'namaste' makes perfect sense. It is only that through the Christ event 'the sacred', the Sun Spirit, becomes firmly connected with the Earth. It's a macrocosmic process. The human "I"s only reflect microcosmically this grand process.
Of course this has no value if the reality of the spiritual world is not at least considered. As long as the beyond is conceived as a nebulous, homogenous, amalgamation of spirit, the highest ideal on Earth could only be to extricate oneself from existence and merge with the nebulous.

[Lou Gold]

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Sat Feb 20, 2021 3:32 pm
I believe that Jesus and Gautama in their fully realized form would see each other as co-creating brothers.

Cleric wrote:
Here we should make a distinction between Jesus, the highly advanced human being, and the Christ - the macrocosmic Sun Spirit. The Christ incarnated and lived within the bodily sheaths of Jesus for three years - from the baptism at Jordan, to the crucifixion.

I quite intentionally said Jesus and GAUTAMA and distinguished them from their fully realized form of Christ and Buddha. I do not object to your writing a Christian religious story, just pointing out that a Buddhist might present the story of a Buddhist Moment that, in temporal terms, occurred 4-6 centuries earlier.

When Moses was approached by God in the burning bush he had personal revelation. Then he returned with God's commandments and presented them to the people. This is a religion. The reason is that even if someone else went to the same bush, he wouldn't find there God speaking. So the commandments had to be taken of faith.

Do you believe that if someone other than Jesus went to the Mount, that he or she would have delivered the same sermon?

What I'm speaking of is something that can be experienced by anyone. The path to the states of consciousness is fully disclosed. This makes it a science. One not only presents facts of experience but also the path leading to the facts.

Buddhists say the same and present a full canon of teachings as well as techniques for anyone to prove it in direct experience.

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:02 pm
India is the land where the fundamental greeting is namaste meaning, "the sacred in me recognizes the sacred in you".

Cleric wrote:
What I've said in no way contradicts this. As I said, in the distant past, the consciousness was much more spiritual, even if somewhat dreamy. The body was felt as something illusionary and the soul as something real, belonging to the Spiritual World. From this soul mood, 'namaste' makes perfect sense. It is only that through the Christ event 'the sacred', the Sun Spirit, becomes firmly connected with the Earth. It's a macrocosmic process. The human "I"s only reflect microcosmically this grand process.

The Sun Spirit is the symbol of awakening for diurnal creatures like humans. Both Buddhists and Christians are speaking of consciousness or awareness "waking up." "Gone. Gone to the other shore. Awake. So be it." An Idealist like BK, for example, might call it in 'nonreligious' lingo, a Consciousness Moment. Here is an interesting exercise that anyone can do: Go for a walk anywhere (it could be to the market) and keep repeating with strong intention: "Everything I see is a symbol of Consciousness."

BTW, it is quite inaccurate to suggest that Buddhists

continue to turn away their gaze away from the sensory self, because it's considered an illusion, and keep looking for the spiritual world beyond as reality.

Buddha did not say the sensory self is an illusion. He said that attachment to this impermanent state was the cause of suffering. His remedy of detachment allowed a deeper awareness and fuller engagement in witnessing and participating in life as it is. However, no one can prevent a follower from attempting a "spiritual bypass" in thinking that Nirvana or Paradise is elsewhere than in the ever present now.

Finally and personally, the interesting thing is that I, with little Buddhist practice beyond a tiny bit of Zen meditation and reading a couple Sutras, can say these things with total conviction because Jesus, Mary and the Holy Cross have been planted and blossomed in my heart. It is what it is. To each his or her own. VIVA! to what works.

Of course this has no value if the reality of the spiritual world is not at least considered. As long as the beyond is conceived as a nebulous, homogenous, amalgamation of spirit, the highest ideal on Earth could only be to extricate oneself from existence and merge with the nebulous.

Form is Emptiness; Emptiness is not other than Form. Be Here Now!