Ahh! I didn't have the time-energy-inclination to wade through the hour+ of Pagel's 'dissertation'.
Yes! ,,, Xceptin' to the idea of 'mysteriousness' - said 'connection' is a 'no-brainer' to me.
Ahh! I didn't have the time-energy-inclination to wade through the hour+ of Pagel's 'dissertation'.
Re'deemed', indeed! ... 'deem' as in https://www.yourdictionary.com/deemCleric K wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:38 pmThrough the efforts of beings from on all stages of evolution, the complicated biological gradient has become possible which allows the Spirit to experience itself ...
... Now the Spirit locked in all these mineral, plant, animal and human forms will have to be redempted to its non-decohered state. So when the "I" becomes conscious of its own physicality in the Heavenly sense, the work for the gradual work of redemption and spiritualization of the Earthly realm also begins.
It is a 'no-brainer' if the 'brain' is thought to be fundamental, which I believe is the point of idealism. On the other hand, to say that the 'mysteriousness' is fundamental is NOT to say that the discovery of experience within it is not important or meaningful. Ever-expanding relationship is the path and it's lovely, indeed!David_Sundaram wrote: ↑Sat Feb 20, 2021 2:01 pmAhh! I didn't have the time-energy-inclination to wade through the hour+ of Pagel's 'dissertation'.
Yes! ,,, Xceptin' to the idea of 'mysteriousness' - said 'connection' is a 'no-brainer' to me.
I also see a more traditional meaning of the cross, which can be simplified as a vertical of devotion and a horizontal of relationship and, yes, the vertical deals with the eternal and the horizontal deals with the temporal. Each axis is bidirectional. Bodies learn of spirit and spirit learns of bodies. The liberation occurs in the full realization (awareness) of what one is. Spirit and and matter are connected. Self and other are connected. Every event/experience in the now is a learning. Transcendence is not more important than immanence.David_Sundaram wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 4:13 pmYou 'nailed' * it (IMO), Cleric! Xeptin' I would say "in time" instead of "within the physical", albeit I think we are talkin' about the same thang.Cleric K wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:04 pm On the other hand, after the "I" was fully incarnated in the temporal, for the first time in the Christ event, consciousness gradually finds itself as embedded within time. Cycles turn out to be more like spirals. They don't repeat indefinitely but every cycle brings something new - it does not end where it started. Now time and timelessness should be gradually integrated through evolution, not by escaping after death but by finding the timeless Spirit within the physical.
* (Copied from http://lovebound.org/thecross.html :
"Many people might associate the cross with Christianity, as a symbol of Jesus'
crucifixion. However, the cross (as a symbol) is much older than that.
It might have more meaning than just one, but the main meaning is as follows:
The horizontal line symbolises the flow of time as we know it here on Earth.
Actually, the line should be a circle, a ring (see the explanation below).
The vertical line symbolises the evolution of the spirit. Symbolically, at
the bottom of the vertical line is a very low energy state (" hell ") and at the top
is the highest energy state (" Godhood ").
Where the two lines intersect, there is the Now, the present moment (this
particular cross shows the symbol of heart there).
Along the horizontal line is the flow of " Earth " time: past to the left of the
heart; present in the middle, where the heart is; future to the right of the heart.
In other words, the horizontal line symbolises the flow of material existence.
Along the vertical line is the flow of the spirit's evolution. For the spirit there
is no past-present-future flow of time: there is only the Now. In other words,
the vertical line symbolises your spiritual evolution.
Our goal is to evolve spiritually (as the spirits we actually are).
Every moment you make choices. In a very simplified way, when you make
material choices (like buying stuff, making money, playing cards, etc) you
move along the horizontal (time) line; when you make spiritual choices (like
healing, meditating, loving, etc) you move up the vertical line.
People, whose intent is to evolve spiritually, want to move up along
the vertical line as much as possible. People, who forgot their true nature
and imprisoned themselves in hogging material possession, move along
the horizontal " time " line in an endless circle, without moving up along
the vertical line.
Because we live in a material world, and need to buy material stuff and make
money, as well, our " Earth life path " resembles more of an upward spiral.
Of course, those that take the material possession hogging too far and
trample on people, may move down the vertical " spiritual evolution " line;
in other words, they may devolve spiritually."
Cleric, I'm wondering why you believe that the "I" was not fully incarnated in the Buddha event?Cleric K wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:04 pm
On the other hand, after the "I" was fully incarnated in the temporal, for the first time in the Christ event, consciousness gradually finds itself as embedded within time. Cycles turn out to be more like spirals. They don't repeat indefinitely but every cycle brings something new - it does not end where it started. Now time and timelessness should be gradually integrated through evolution, not by escaping after death but by finding the timeless Spirit within the physical.
This is a perfectly good question, Lou!
OK. My purpose is not to challenge your take but, rather, to point out that it is a story. Indeed, it is a religious story and it takes a lot of words for you to explain it (nearly, a full scripture's worth). As such, it violates your stated goal of producing an understanding free of religion. I, personally, am not against religion (although I don't care for religious institutions). I also have had decades of deep introspection. I also have had life altering religious experiences. Jesus, Mary and the Cross entered my heart despite what many Christians have believed and done to other peoples, including my own.Cleric K wrote: ↑Sat Feb 20, 2021 10:12 pmThis is a perfectly good question, Lou!
Unfortunately it's practically impossible to logically prove this. When one attains to the deeper experience of evolution of consciousness, it is quite clear but this experience can not simply be transplanted to someone else. The most I can do at this moment is to try to describe in very sketchy way how the self experience evolves through the millennia. This is something that can be actually traced through spiritual perception.
etc
etc
etc
Wow.. this turned out into a torrent of words again... Sorry about that. While I know that this can never be convincing, I hope that it at least gives some food for thought or at least another perspective on the question.
India is the land where the fundamental greeting is namaste meaning, "the sacred in me recognizes the sacred in you". It is also the land where saints like Ramana Maharshi manifest it incarnate. This does not happen because there was a unique Christ moment but because it's a human potential that appears in many places at many times.Every impulse in evolution adds something new to humanity. The Christ event does not invalidate the teachings of Buddha. The road to self perfection is quite the same - right thought, right action, etc. But now, not everything within the human body is an illusion. Now there's an element of Divinity within the incarnate self - something that has become incorporated in the physical world. And at this point, Buddhism or any other pre-Christ tradition, can become anti-evolutionary if they are perpetuated in the same old form.
I agree that it's a substantial body of knowledge but I wouldn't call it a religion. When Moses was approached by God in the burning bush he had personal revelation. Then he returned with God's commandments and presented them to the people. This is a religion. The reason is that even if someone else went to the same bush, he wouldn't find there God speaking. So the commandments had to be taken of faith.
Here we should make a distinction between Jesus, the highly advanced human being, and the Christ - the macrocosmic Sun Spirit. The Christ incarnated and lived within the bodily sheaths of Jesus for three years - from the baptism at Jordan, to the crucifixion.
What I've said in no way contradicts this. As I said, in the distant past, the consciousness was much more spiritual, even if somewhat dreamy. The body was felt as something illusionary and the soul as something real, belonging to the Spiritual World. From this soul mood, 'namaste' makes perfect sense. It is only that through the Christ event 'the sacred', the Sun Spirit, becomes firmly connected with the Earth. It's a macrocosmic process. The human "I"s only reflect microcosmically this grand process.
I quite intentionally said Jesus and GAUTAMA and distinguished them from their fully realized form of Christ and Buddha. I do not object to your writing a Christian religious story, just pointing out that a Buddhist might present the story of a Buddhist Moment that, in temporal terms, occurred 4-6 centuries earlier.Lou Gold wrote: ↑Sat Feb 20, 2021 3:32 pm
I believe that Jesus and Gautama in their fully realized form would see each other as co-creating brothers.
Cleric wrote:
Here we should make a distinction between Jesus, the highly advanced human being, and the Christ - the macrocosmic Sun Spirit. The Christ incarnated and lived within the bodily sheaths of Jesus for three years - from the baptism at Jordan, to the crucifixion.
Do you believe that if someone other than Jesus went to the Mount, that he or she would have delivered the same sermon?When Moses was approached by God in the burning bush he had personal revelation. Then he returned with God's commandments and presented them to the people. This is a religion. The reason is that even if someone else went to the same bush, he wouldn't find there God speaking. So the commandments had to be taken of faith.
Buddhists say the same and present a full canon of teachings as well as techniques for anyone to prove it in direct experience.What I'm speaking of is something that can be experienced by anyone. The path to the states of consciousness is fully disclosed. This makes it a science. One not only presents facts of experience but also the path leading to the facts.
The Sun Spirit is the symbol of awakening for diurnal creatures like humans. Both Buddhists and Christians are speaking of consciousness or awareness "waking up." "Gone. Gone to the other shore. Awake. So be it." An Idealist like BK, for example, might call it in 'nonreligious' lingo, a Consciousness Moment. Here is an interesting exercise that anyone can do: Go for a walk anywhere (it could be to the market) and keep repeating with strong intention: "Everything I see is a symbol of Consciousness."Lou Gold wrote: ↑Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:02 pm
India is the land where the fundamental greeting is namaste meaning, "the sacred in me recognizes the sacred in you".
Cleric wrote:
What I've said in no way contradicts this. As I said, in the distant past, the consciousness was much more spiritual, even if somewhat dreamy. The body was felt as something illusionary and the soul as something real, belonging to the Spiritual World. From this soul mood, 'namaste' makes perfect sense. It is only that through the Christ event 'the sacred', the Sun Spirit, becomes firmly connected with the Earth. It's a macrocosmic process. The human "I"s only reflect microcosmically this grand process.
Buddha did not say the sensory self is an illusion. He said that attachment to this impermanent state was the cause of suffering. His remedy of detachment allowed a deeper awareness and fuller engagement in witnessing and participating in life as it is. However, no one can prevent a follower from attempting a "spiritual bypass" in thinking that Nirvana or Paradise is elsewhere than in the ever present now.continue to turn away their gaze away from the sensory self, because it's considered an illusion, and keep looking for the spiritual world beyond as reality.
Form is Emptiness; Emptiness is not other than Form. Be Here Now!Of course this has no value if the reality of the spiritual world is not at least considered. As long as the beyond is conceived as a nebulous, homogenous, amalgamation of spirit, the highest ideal on Earth could only be to extricate oneself from existence and merge with the nebulous.