Hey Ashvin,AshvinP wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:55 amLou,Lou Gold wrote: ↑Sun Dec 19, 2021 6:34 pm Ashvin,
Where I suspect you err is in not accepting that I know the inward path as the fundamental challenge and refuse to acknowledge that I and others have been working on it in depth (some even significantly longer than you). I know that you see yourself and our recently evolved species as incomplete and you project that on anything I share. My politics have in the past been left-leaning. At present I see no political solution to our turmoil and I view the Communism, Fascism and Liberalism of the 20th Century as failed ideologies. On the other hand, there are many who in my view who practice "Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love" and see/think/feel/act within the limits of their circumstances simply doing their best. Compassionately, I also understand that gratitude can be quite a challenge (as when one's child is terribly ill). I seek to appreciate and support the good works without critiquing how a particular person worked their own process or the names they associate with it. A favorite representation of process in my view is portrayed in my icon and I would not be offended if you called it an example of Thinking.
The problem is everyone wants to share an opinion here but never have it criticized. It's not about age. I see the very purpose of these exchanges, as all phenomena, to have our ideal understanding tested and refined "as iron sharpens iron", so the ideas may also evolve through us. This is not about what happens in any given day, week, month, year, or lifetime. It's not about who is agreeing with each other for the sake of friendly agreement. It's not even about any individual personality and their journey through life or what they know or don't know. I write these things as one of many tools to help myself shift my own perspective from the physical to the spiritual, from the finite to the infinite, fragmented to the integral. This is a terribly difficult task which requires vigilance and persistence. If I sense you are misunderstanding what I am saying, which is what I sensed in your quote of Goethe and response to Rilke quote, it helps me to point it out and flesh it out more. I try to stick only to substance and not any personal attacks or insults. But if you are offended by the very fact of me disagreeing, or challenging, or critiquing, or simply elaborating on my own thoughts, then I would suggest not commenting.
I'm not offended by criticism. I just don't have an appetite for endless argumentation. I do accept and appreciate your process as you describe it:
" I write these things as one of many tools to help myself shift my own perspective from the physical to the spiritual, from the finite to the infinite, fragmented to the integral. This is a terribly difficult task which requires vigilance and persistence. If I sense you are misunderstanding what I am saying, which is what I sensed in your quote of Goethe and response to Rilke quote, it helps me to point it out and flesh it out more. "
Let me try to untangle a misunderstanding. Here's more to flesh out, noting that I'm talking not about your understanding but about my own.
First, the Goethe quote: "The spectacle of Nature is always new, for she is always renewing the spectators. Life is her most exquisite invention; and death is her expert contrivance to get plenty of life." I see the truth this all the way from a basic ecology of how a an old growth forest works to an ultimate spirituality expressed in the so-called Prayer of Saint Francis ("It is by dying that we are born to eternal life.") Humorously, I say, "Tests all the way up and turtles all the way down." More fundamentally, I see a dynamic process in which so-called nature and so-called spirit are not separated but are always in some state of interdependence or co-arising. As above, so below.
Second, I added in the Wiki paragraph about tumultuous times and Rilke's life not to dismiss the aspiration of "kissing the dragon" or being grateful for the arrival of what we fear but to express compassion toward how difficult it can be. And for those who make some progress there will be the challenges of being amidst others who are more fearful. It is a big work.
About age, I can only say that, whereas it is often associated with wisdom, from within the end zone it seems more like having had more time to make mistakes. As I mentioned to Dana, life review is not fun but, yes, I'm surely grateful for it.
I sense an evolving difference in my own process. I used to be focused on, as you say: "from the physical to the spiritual, from the finite to the infinite, fragmented to the integral" but now this end zone school seems to be bringing a shift in my process. Now I seem to be more focused on being more compassionate and less judgemental toward myself and others. I'm not proclaiming that this is higher or better or superior, just that it does feel more generative and integrative for where I am now.
OK, perhaps this will untangle a few knots.