Here participants should focus discussion on Bernardo's model and related ideas, by way of exploration, explication, elaboration, and constructive critique. Moderators may intervene to reel in commentary that has drifted too far into areas where other interest groups may try to steer it
Hedge90 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 16, 2022 2:48 pm
I know I'm not the only one noticing this, but I feel like Bernardo's focus is slowly but surely shifting from a meaning-oriented yet rational philosophy towards something that's basically nihilism in anything but name. Tbh this worries me to some extent, because I think Bernardo is a man of great intellect, who helped me understand things that I couldn't piece together by myself. I find the notion that ultimately he seems like he's arriving at a nihilistic point of view alarming.
Do you know any - if possible, contemporary - philosopher (other than Steiner), who has a similar idealistic framework, but whose ultimate conclusion is not "nothing is true, everything is permitted"?
Why? If you want to see Moses leading his people to the Promised Land in a cup of tea, fine - but that mood comes from your body-mind, not the cup of tea. Why turn everything into a mood?
That's a very simplified take on what my problem is. I don't really have time to elaborate now, but the conclusion I'd rather avoid is that there's no positive and no negative, there's nothing to strive towards, there's no good and bad. That's nihilism.
Hedge,
You are probably aware of this already, but the fact is, no one here actually lives their life in the "spiritual yet nihilistic" way they are representing to you. We all have ideals and these ideals hierarchically structure everything we think, feel, desire, and do. We could not survive otherwise. The only question is whether we are conscious of our own ideals or not. Nihilism is the increasing unconsciousness with respect to these ideals. It is the ultimate example of the mind deceiving itself, this time with a rejection of stories by declaring them "hallucination". Stories lead us to think concretely, to reason imaginatively. Continue to seek out the stories which are meaningful to you and which are concrete to your experience - the stories which satisfy your living Reason and keep you asking meaningful questions with genuine interest in the answers - and you will be just fine.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
Yes, but living with Ideals doesn’t mean the world has Cosmic Meaning, and doesn’t mean every thought and perception has to generate or harvest a Cosmic Mood.
lorenzop wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 3:55 am
Yes, but living with Ideals doesn’t mean the world has Cosmic Meaning, and doesn’t mean every thought and perception has to generate or harvest a Cosmic Mood.
Isn’t this BKs point in recent interviews? Ultimately, We don’t want to go to a therapist and be told we can make our own meaning. We want to know the truth whether it is palatable or not. In this sense, I find much of the meaning I gain from BKs work is in its reductive focus on truth. He often says his Deamon runs counter to what he personally prefers. Truth has it’s own kind of meaning.
Going in scary directions? Yep, it can be a scary world.
Of course, you could just join the Aetherius Society and take comfort in the knowledge that there are ascended masters who have retreats under various mountains like Grand Teton, Mount Shasta and Castle Peak in the USA; Luxor in Egypt; Mount Kilimanjaro in Tanzania and Ben MacDhui in Scotland.
These masters include: The Lord Babaji, The Lord Maitreya ,Saint Goo-Ling, Count Saint Germain, Swami Vivekananda and, of course, Madame Blavatsky.
But, no, just be grateful that you you still have evolved critical faculties not yet blasted out of existence by unconditional love.
lorenzop wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 3:55 am
Yes, but living with Ideals doesn’t mean the world has Cosmic Meaning, and doesn’t mean every thought and perception has to generate or harvest a Cosmic Mood.
That is quite literally what "ideals" mean. If we can't survive without them, then knowing what they are and how they structure our own thoughts may prove important. When we die, we are not leaving all lawful structure and dissolving into unconscious bliss. We are traveling into realms of Cosmic meaning. What we think, feel, and do matters. These things are easily reasoned out, just like the fact we always awaken from deep sleep and dreams with continuity of experience. Moreover, our qualitative knowing activity is an expression of gratitude that our inner experience is not an "entropic soup". We take this structure for granted, but there is no guarantee it will always be there if we choose to abandon it. When our inner experience loses structure, the world ends up with environmental catastrophes, wars, and genocides. The outer world always ends up reflecting the inner world over time. So, harvesting our "Cosmic moods" is very important. We do, in fact, reap what we sow.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
lorenzop wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 3:55 am
Yes, but living with Ideals doesn’t mean the world has Cosmic Meaning, and doesn’t mean every thought and perception has to generate or harvest a Cosmic Mood.
That is quite literally what "ideals" mean. If we can't survive without them, then knowing what they are and how they structure our own thoughts may prove important. When we die, we are not leaving all lawful structure and dissolving into unconscious bliss. We are traveling into realms of Cosmic meaning. What we think, feel, and do matters. These things are easily reasoned out, just like the fact we always awaken from deep sleep and dreams with continuity of experience. Moreover, our qualitative knowing activity is an expression of gratitude that our inner experience is not an "entropic soup". We take this structure for granted, but there is no guarantee it will always be there if we choose to abandon it. When our inner experience loses structure, the world ends up with environmental catastrophes, wars, and genocides. The outer world always ends up reflecting the inner world over time. So, harvesting our "Cosmic moods" is very important. We do, in fact, reap what we sow.
I do not live in a world of imbedded meanings and truths. My body-mind may have cultural/programmed beliefs and meaning. Christians perceive Christian meanings, Jews Jewish meanings, Hindu feeling Hindu meanings, and etc.. I have no interest in encouraging any beliefs or meanings I may burden myself with.
lorenzop wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 3:55 am
Yes, but living with Ideals doesn’t mean the world has Cosmic Meaning, and doesn’t mean every thought and perception has to generate or harvest a Cosmic Mood.
That is quite literally what "ideals" mean. If we can't survive without them, then knowing what they are and how they structure our own thoughts may prove important. When we die, we are not leaving all lawful structure and dissolving into unconscious bliss. We are traveling into realms of Cosmic meaning. What we think, feel, and do matters. These things are easily reasoned out, just like the fact we always awaken from deep sleep and dreams with continuity of experience. Moreover, our qualitative knowing activity is an expression of gratitude that our inner experience is not an "entropic soup". We take this structure for granted, but there is no guarantee it will always be there if we choose to abandon it. When our inner experience loses structure, the world ends up with environmental catastrophes, wars, and genocides. The outer world always ends up reflecting the inner world over time. So, harvesting our "Cosmic moods" is very important. We do, in fact, reap what we sow.
I do not live in a world of imbedded meanings and truths. My body-mind may have cultural/programmed beliefs and meaning. Christians perceive Christian meanings, Jews Jewish meanings, Hindu feeling Hindu meanings, and etc.. I have no interest in encouraging any beliefs or meanings I may burden myself with.
That's fine, Lorenzo. But there is no reason for your personal lack of interest in meaning to be presented as a logical argument to the actual existence of Cosmic meaning. It isn't a counter-argument, its just your own lack of interest. For those with interest, it's very easy to perceive the overlapping and evolving meanings of all spiritual, philosophical, religious, aesthetic, and scientific conceptual forms. They are all symbols pointing to archetypal meanings that have been explored in precise detail by many different thinkers of the 20th century. Our own lack of awareness of these investigations is not evidence they don't exist and have something of great value to offer.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
That is quite literally what "ideals" mean. If we can't survive without them, then knowing what they are and how they structure our own thoughts may prove important. When we die, we are not leaving all lawful structure and dissolving into unconscious bliss. We are traveling into realms of Cosmic meaning. What we think, feel, and do matters. These things are easily reasoned out, just like the fact we always awaken from deep sleep and dreams with continuity of experience. Moreover, our qualitative knowing activity is an expression of gratitude that our inner experience is not an "entropic soup". We take this structure for granted, but there is no guarantee it will always be there if we choose to abandon it. When our inner experience loses structure, the world ends up with environmental catastrophes, wars, and genocides. The outer world always ends up reflecting the inner world over time. So, harvesting our "Cosmic moods" is very important. We do, in fact, reap what we sow.
I do not live in a world of imbedded meanings and truths. My body-mind may have cultural/programmed beliefs and meaning. Christians perceive Christian meanings, Jews Jewish meanings, Hindu feeling Hindu meanings, and etc.. I have no interest in encouraging any beliefs or meanings I may burden myself with.
That's fine, Lorenzo. But there is no reason for your personal lack of interest in meaning to be presented as a logical argument to the actual existence of Cosmic meaning. It isn't a counter-argument, its just your own lack of interest. For those with interest, it's very easy to perceive the overlapping and evolving meanings of all spiritual, philosophical, religious, aesthetic, and scientific conceptual forms. They are all symbols pointing to archetypal meanings that have been explored in precise detail by many different thinkers of the 20th century. Our own lack of awareness of these investigations is not evidence they don't exist and have something of great value to offer.
It is your duty (not mine to present they don't exist) to present a logical argument for the existence of embedded cosmic meanings in reality - and to do so using English, and not some made-up mystical language only you and Goethe/Voltaire/Kant understand. What would be an example of a 'meaning' as a 'scientific conceptual form' you mention above . . . maybe you are using the word 'meaning' in a different manner.
I ask for an example of a 'scientific conceptual form' because it sounds like one of your gobblety-gook phrases.
It is your duty (not mine to present they don't exist) to present a logical argument for the existence of embedded cosmic meanings in reality - and to do so using English, and not some made-up mystical language only you and Goethe/Voltaire/Kant understand. What would be an example of a 'meaning' as a 'scientific conceptual form' you mention above . . . maybe you are using the word 'meaning' in a different manner.
Meaning is what we experience, all the time, everywhere, in every activity we consciously engage. Cleric already explained this to you in the most simple possible terms on the other thread. It's really pretty amazing that people have abstracted so far from experience of the world that they can no longer understand the meaning of "meaning" or perceive it in the world around them. The only reason we can make sense of the world, communicate, do science, create and appreciate art, etc. is because of the shared meaning. Besides that, the entire premise of philosophical idealism is that idea/meaning is essential. It seems a few people here only like to call themselves "idealist" without understanding what it means. I guess that's what happens when meaning is denied existence.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
AshvinP wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 5:28 pm
Meaning is what we experience, all the time, everywhere, in every activity we consciously engage. Cleric already explained this to you in the most simple possible terms on the other thread. It's really pretty amazing that people have abstracted so far from experience of the world that they can no longer understand the meaning of "meaning" or perceive it in the world around them. The only reason we can make sense of the world, communicate, do science, create and appreciate art, etc. is because of the shared meaning. Besides that, the entire premise of philosophical idealism is that idea/meaning is essential. It seems a few people here only like to call themselves "idealist" without understanding what it means. I guess that's what happens when meaning is denied existence.
If 'meaning' is what we experience, then why use the word 'meaning' when experience is sufficient? Meaning implies an added something . . . like 'my cup of coffee is telling me something' . . . so waht do you mean by 'meaning'?
Yes we make sense of the world from what we are taught, and programmed by our culture. This is a garden, this a wall, this is how to behave at dinner, etc. People who accept a set of beliefs (like Christians/Jews/atheists) - they have their own peculiar set of 'meanings' - - - but this does not mean these meaning(s) are embedded in reality.
