Is it just me who is going through a lot of existential angst about idealism?

Any topics primarily focused on metaphysics can be discussed here, in a generally casual way, where conversations may take unexpected turns.
Hedge90
Posts: 212
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:25 pm

Re: Is it just me who is going through a lot of existential angst about idealism?

Post by Hedge90 »

lorenzop wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 6:24 pm
Hedge90 wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:46 pm Having no firsthand experience about any mystery, I will not state to the contrary. But unless you know EVERYTHING about the entirety of reality, how sure can you be about that there are no mysteries? To me this seems like an overconfident statement.
I suppose it depends on how one defines 'mystery' - if mystery means or implies 'having an inherent barrier to knowing, or requiring a preist or intermediary, or intentionally hidden/concealed by reality', then no, I don't believe there are any mysteries.
If 'mystery' simply means not known (but knowable), then yes, there are many things I (we) don't know.
So, is there a layer of cosmic sentiments, morality, ideas/forms, etc? I don't see a compelling reason to believe so.
By mystery I mean "an inherent barrier to knowing, which barrier is an intrinsic part of the structure of reality, and the means of circumventing which is counterintuitive".
So it's not "intentionally hidden", and its realisation doesn't require a priest per se, but it's nevertheless not something you are likely to find by yourself, because there are too many factors diverting your attention from where it should be in order to open them.
I can maybe draw an analogy between a mystery and a modern scientific discovery: quantum entanglement, for example, is not "intentionally hidden", but you wouldn't discover it by yourself, in a single life. No, you use the methods and tools that generations of scientists developed explicitly for the purpose of being able to examine the world in a manner that is counterintuitive (btw science itself is pretty counterintuitive already).
Do you get my point? If there indeed are mysteries, then the methods, meditations and initiatic ways via which one can open them are analoguous to the scientific apparatus and knowledge base you use to understand nature.
lorenzop
Posts: 403
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:29 pm

Re: Is it just me who is going through a lot of existential angst about idealism?

Post by lorenzop »

According to materialism/physicalism, the mind HAS to be a sealed container - - yet as you say, scientists like Einstein often credit their discoveries to intuitive moments, or dreams . . . which needless to say, should be impossible according to materialism.
According to (the various flavors of) Idealism - the mind is not a sealed container, but fluid/unbounded, and all regions of reality/consciousness are accessible. If we refer to these intuitions, ie ideas originating outside of one's mind, as 'architypes', then I'm very fine with that. For example:

The nineteenth-century German chemist August Kekulé claimed to have pictured the ring structure of benzene after dreaming of a snake eating its own tail. . . . offers a definitive account of Kekulé's life and the significance of visualization in the development of chemistry.

Ashwin/Cleric - - is the above example of a snake biting it's own tail - - is this an example of an architype? An idea, or intuition, originating from outside one's mind.
User avatar
Cleric K
Posts: 1657
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:40 pm

Re: Is it just me who is going through a lot of existential angst about idealism?

Post by Cleric K »

Anthony66 wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 2:16 pm Cleric,

What confidence can we have in our logical reasoning faculty? If I am currently in an "unliberated" state, unaware of the nature of the forces pulling my cognitive strings, is not my thinking to be viewed with great suspicion (by my thinking :? )?
Interestingly, I've often tried to use the same argument to point out the fallacy of philosophies that see thinking as inherently illusionary.

If this is really the case (that thinking is inherently illusionary and to be viewed with great suspicion) then how can we have confidence in our idea that pushing away cognitive spiritual activity and only observing quietly, actually presents us with the non-illusionary true reality? After all, if thinking is illusionary, we should take the idea of the no-thought 'enlightenment' as equally suspicious!

The reason people don't notice this elementary fallacy is because they are blind about the fact that they actually think this conclusion. Instead, because they dimly repel cognition, they imagine that their decision and confidence in doing so, proceeds from some completely different spiritual faculty (usually going by the name 'intuition').

The fallacy is elementary indeed. It's the belief that if we don't do anything, we can't go wrong. It's something like "Whoever is afraid of bears doesn't go into the woods." So whoever doesn't want to err in thinking, simply should avoid thinking! So simple, isn't it? Unfortunately, this philosophy is refuted by practically every practical experience. There's even a saying "Anything can draw enemy fire on you, including doing nothing." People imagine that just because they repel cognition, from that moment on every form of meaning that they experience is coming from some deep and unerring intuition.

As a matter of fact it is completely possible that the meaning can come from deep intuition! The error is to draw the hard line between this vague intuition and our ordinary thinking. This is just another incarnation of the dualism which inevitably surfaces somewhere, when we don't have clear consciousness of our spiritual activity. We could never settle this with Eugene, for example. At some point the mystic decides that the meaning he experiences as no-thought intuition ('experiencing' or whatever) is of categorically and irreconcilably different kind than the meaning we experience in the intellect! It is really paradoxical how popular non-dualism creates hard dualisms at every step and doesn't even recognize it! Even the most basic glance over this should suggest that if we are to take non-dualism seriously, the most reasonable thing is to see intuition and the intellect as different states of aggregation of meaning, so to speak. In other words, in our intellectual thoughts we experience crystalized intuition.

We can see this fallacy everywhere really. People are really fond of drawing such hard and irreconcilable boundaries. Mike for example speaks of the background of everything and everyone but there there's no longer any trace of Mike. So we have two completely orthogonal states of being and not the faintest idea about any possible gradient in between. And who wants to hear about gradient? Gradient quickly relates to hierarchy and that's too much to bear for most. Thus one remains with flat mysticism, with the paradoxical dual non-dualism, with illusionary ghost of the thinking ego on one side, and the 'true' transcendent reality on the other, yet with absolutely no point of contact between them.

If we see things without emotional bias, then we should naturally conclude that there's something of our deep spiritual intuition which crystalizes in our rigid intellectual vessels. Yet the meaningful essence is of the same nature. Just as we can trace how a fluid crystalizes into a solid, so we can trace how fiery Intuition condenses into airy Inspiration, which condenses into fluid Imagination, which crystalizes into solid intellect. This is a gradient of cognition - spiritual life in meaning. There are no hard and irreconcilable boundaries. Just as we can see blocks of ice floating on water, so we can observe how our thoughts crystalize from the world of Imagination. Yes, the dynamics and rhythms at each level are different, but the primordial essence is the same.

So to your question. There's no single dividing line between liberated and non-liberated state. Yes, there are distinguishable thresholds between 'states of aggregation'. There are certain points in our life when we may have epiphanies, when we suddenly get an 'aha!' moment and lots of the pieces of the puzzle come together but still, these are only milestones along an infinite road. The important thing is to get a sense of sound thinking. We need to develop a good feeling for harmonious relation of thoughts and dissonant clashes. This sensitivity should be developed first about the most elementary facts. In our hectic age we hardly realizes how little sense of truth we have. And part of the reason is that we've become completely comfortable with lying. Lies have become a completely natural part of our life. From Santa Claus, to all the lies and deceptions that businesses require if they are not to be crushed by the competition. The result is that modern man feels almost nothing when he tells a lie. It's just words in specific arrangement - no big deal. It seems as natural part of the game. Alas, these 'normal' for our age cognitive habits have completely devastating consequences for our thinking life.

An illogical thought should cause us real pain. It should sound like grinding metal, like unbearable squeaky sound. Conversely, a logical thought should sound as a pleasant chord, it should gladden our heart and spin luminous threads in all directions.

So in our intellect we're not at all exiled from the higher world of musical meaning. It is only that we have to work much harder, to experiment with the arrangements of thoughts and see how they fit. The analogy with water and ice-cubes is useful. There are currents, streams of harmony in the higher fluidic strata. These are not separate and remote worlds. We're submerged in them, we breath and think them. When our ice-cube thoughts are aligned with these streamlines, we cognitively feel their harmony. This is not a 'copy' of the higher harmony - it is the the same harmony.

That's why, the quest for truth is always about the harmony of the facts. We can never have certainty by taking few concepts, say "God", "Angel", "matter" and try to combine them in the most various ways as pieces of puzzle. We'll always wonder "How can I be certain whether this or that arrangement is the correct one?". Simple - we can't. We gain the certainty only when we begin to spin threads from these concepts and try to follow their dynamics in all of reality, not only some chosen limited domain. The harmony of the facts will be musically confirmed or contradicted as we expand the horizon of our investigation. This is what we do everywhere. It's what science does, it's what forensics does. We can speak of truth only as an ever expanding horizon where everything fits together in a musical harmony. The more we can follow the logical movement of the ice-cubes (that is, the ordinary logical connections), the more we begin to sense the higher order flow within which they are streamlined.

As a practical advice, I can suggest the following. As long as we have fortified ourselves in a certain outlook, it is very difficult to make sense of these things. We're in the fortified tower and we're shelled by words. We don't allow the words come very close - that is, we don't allow ourselves to think them. We only observe them as linguistic shapes and reflect them with our shield. Then we either say "These shapes make no sense" or we say "I know these things in and out. They look similar to what X and Y said. Nothing new." This is very characteristic. Each one of us can notice this if we try. Very often when we listen to something, we don't think about the ways it can be right but instead we think only about all the ways it can be wrong (as seen from our perspective).

The solution is to allow a new 'alter' take form in us. We need to enter a dialog with ourselves. We should allow a being take form in us which tries to understand things. Then we begin to converse with ourselves. We take both sides alternatively. This is much more difficult to do, even though logically it is completely straightforward. The resistance is completely emotional, it has nothing to do with logic. Yet if we manage to overcome that resistance, we'll quickly realize how until now we have been paralyzing our own progress. We realize that not only we don't loose anything when we think things from different sides but we only gain.

This is a very powerful inner experience. It is immeasurably more powerful than de-identifying with the ego and declaring it an illusion - this simply merges the ego with the background, as a chameleon. Instead, when we begin to think from both sides, we quickly realize that our true being only becomes richer and richer. We overcome the fear of understanding other points of view. This fear is very widespread even if not readily admitted. Most commonly people are afraid to understand things (like the ones we talk about here) because they are worried they'll be lulled into some sectarian framework of thought. We can overcome this fear only when we discover the strength and flexibility of our spirit. When we can confidently think through the perspectives of anyone. These thinking perspectives only add to the harmony of the facts. Thinking frameworks are dangerous only when we try to lock into one of them and call it 'the true one'. When we understand our spiritual activity as ever evolving be-ing, all thinking frameworks are only pieces of the Cosmic puzzle that we need to master.

So this is my humble advice - don't be afraid to give birth within yourself to a being which tries to see things from a new angle. A being which asks not "How can I ever know if that is true" but a being which asks "If this is true, and I follow the thread of the facts, where do they lead me? Do they contradict or harmonize and explain everything that I've encountered through experience?"
User avatar
AshvinP
Posts: 5480
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:00 am
Location: USA

Re: Is it just me who is going through a lot of existential angst about idealism?

Post by AshvinP »

lorenzop wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:25 pm According to materialism/physicalism, the mind HAS to be a sealed container - - yet as you say, scientists like Einstein often credit their discoveries to intuitive moments, or dreams . . . which needless to say, should be impossible according to materialism.
According to (the various flavors of) Idealism - the mind is not a sealed container, but fluid/unbounded, and all regions of reality/consciousness are accessible. If we refer to these intuitions, ie ideas originating outside of one's mind, as 'architypes', then I'm very fine with that. For example:

The nineteenth-century German chemist August Kekulé claimed to have pictured the ring structure of benzene after dreaming of a snake eating its own tail. . . . offers a definitive account of Kekulé's life and the significance of visualization in the development of chemistry.

Ashwin/Cleric - - is the above example of a snake biting it's own tail - - is this an example of an architype? An idea, or intuition, originating from outside one's mind.
The uroboros is certainly an archetypal symbol. The inner meaning of this symbol is rather easily diserned, although the depth of meaning of any given archetypal symbol is infinite. Symbols often speak to us from a definite spatiotemporal perspective, for ex. in various ancient mythologies which span different modes of consciousness. Symbols evolve in meaning over time, which is another way of saying their depth of meaning increases and it's not immediately evident to the rational intellect what the additional depth is pointing to. In fact, the intellect cannot really perceive beyond the most superficial flattened meaning of the World Symbols. Dream imagery is symbolic, but so is the waking imagery we perceive around us and within us as inner experiences. If inner forms are like reflections of ideal activity, outer forms are like double-reflections. That is why the inner path is what illuminates the outer forms. So, you see, as Hedge also indicated, none of these things are immediately obvious to modern thinking and require significant penetration with more living reasoning. As Cleric commented in the last post, the deeper layers of meaning can be reached by the higher thinking be-ing living within us, who perceives and reasons from new angles and aims to harmonize all its lines of sight. We need to make active efforts to triangulate the rich meaning of the World Symbols so that, eventually, we can move beyond the symbols to the archetypal forces which give rise to them.

The perfection of that which rests in itself in no way contradicts the perfection of that which circles in itself. Although absolute rest is something static and eternal, unchanging and therefore without history, it is at the same time the place of origin and the germ cell of creativity. Living the cycle of its own life, it is the circular snake, the primal dragon of the beginning that bites its own tail, the self-begetting ’Oυϱóβοϱος.8a This is the ancient Egyptian symbol9 of which it is said: “Draco interfecit se ipsum, maritat se ipsum, impraegnat se ipsum.” 10 It slays, weds, and impregnates itself. It is man and woman, begetting and conceiving, devouring and giving birth, active and passive, above and below, at once. As the Heavenly Serpent, the uroboros was known in ancient Babylon;11 in later times, in the same area, it was often depicted by the Mandaeans (illus. 2); its origin is ascribed by Macrobius to the Phoenicians.12 It is the archetype of the ἓν τò πãν, the All One, appearing as Leviathan and as Aion,as Oceanus (illus. 3 and 5) and also as the Primal Being that says: “I am Alpha and Omega.” As the Kneph of antiquity it is the Primal Snake, the “most ancient deity of the prehistoric world.” 13 The uroboros can be traced in the Revelation of St. John and among the Gnostics 14 as well as among the Roman syncretists;15 there are pictures of it in the sand paintings of the Navajo Indians 16 and in Giotto;17 it is found in Egypt (illus. 4), Africa (illus. 6), Mexico (illus. 7), and India (illus. 8), among the gypsies as an amulet,18 and in the alchemical texts (illus. 9).19

Neumann, Erich. The Origins And History Of Consciousness (International Library of Psychology) (p. 10). Taylor and Francis. Kindle Edition.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
User avatar
Cleric K
Posts: 1657
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:40 pm

Re: Is it just me who is going through a lot of existential angst about idealism?

Post by Cleric K »

lorenzop wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 4:41 pm
When I contemplate/meditate upon Reality, I don't find any feminine/masculine sentiments
Maybe because you still see things as purely abstract concepts, divorced from any 'direct experience' as you call it.

The whole video game analogy was intended to make things as directly experienceable as possible. 'Feminine' was supposed to symbolize the perceptual stream - what the game feeds to us. 'Masculine' is the active stream - what we input into the game.

These are not abstract concepts. They are not like speaking about charm and strange quarks, which are so far removed from our direct human experience.

Try to grasp this in as direct way as possible. Try to encompass the totality of perceptions, the senses, feelings, thoughts. Everything that approaches you in time as ready-made phenomena of consciousness. This is what was called the 'perceptual stream', the feminine principle which represents receptivity.

On the other hand, turn attention to your will, to your thinking. Try to feel how you're a creative center which emanates against the perceptual stream. When you think, when you act, you alter the perceptual world. It's not a question whether this activity is free or nor, whether it is illusion or not. It is a simple fact of direct experience. We can declare it to be illusion only later, when we start to philosophize about the given fact. First and foremost, our ability to meaningfully apply our activity against reality and in effect contribute to its perceptual content, is a fact of direct experience.

Does this make sense? Can you feel that the words used are only pointers to direct experiences? The words are not supposed to remain as floating abstractions, that build card castles in the air.
mikekatz
Posts: 57
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:45 pm

Re: Is it just me who is going through a lot of existential angst about idealism?

Post by mikekatz »

Cleric wrote:Please note this well. It's very simple, it's only attachedness to ideas which prevents us to see it. It's very well that we can step out of the input slots and be aware of the wider consciousness which is no longer restricted in any one of them. But does the reader notice how surreptitiously we have also gotten rid of the willing activity itself? Why should we split things in this way? If we find ourselves in a wider state, free from the rigid thinking, feeling and willing slots, why not investigate the wider degrees of freedom which our liberated spiritual activity is now in position to know? Why not come to know our active being in the nature that is has before it has become condensed into the input slots? Why be content with simply stepping outside the slots and simply be 'awaring' and 'experiencing'. Please note this well. In the mystical state we still live in the perceptual stream of the game but we have lifted ourselves from the rigid keys. But at the same time, we completely forsake any form of activity. We have liberated our spiritual activity from the rigid slots but only in order to paralyze it in passive perceiving of the output stream.
Hi Cleric

I don't get this at all.

In the first state I mentioned in my last post, Self-Remembering, you're not at all getting rid of willing. Actually, and to the contrary, if you are not in a state of self-remembering / mindfulness, you are not really willing or acting. You are responding completely mechanically (unconsciously) the way you have always responded. You are not willing, you are being willed by your background, your habits, your culture etc. What Gurdjieff called waking-sleep.

If you are self-remembering, you are seeing the inputs coming into you, to use your analogy, and you are seeing (and sometimes choosing) the activity going out from you. You are active. When you self-remember, there's now a space between the inputs and the outputs. You are aware of the inputs, and with practice you can be aware of your "standard" output or response. It's precisely and ONLY here, that you have the opportunity to exercise your will.

For example, someone says something to you that usually triggers you to respond angrily. Because you are aware / awake / conscious, you may be able to observe the anger rising in you before you respond. You have a choice then to not respond with anger. THAT is using your will, and that opportunity only arises because of your watching.

Again with practice, and grace, you may even see why you are getting angry, you may become aware of some incident or attitude that has patterned your whole life in these situations. If you see that fully, that particular anger response goes forever. That is REAL WILL.

And with the second non-dual state, it also results in real will and activity. When duality returns, you start seeing the connectedness and inter-dependence of the inputs and the outputs. As you say in your analogy, the inputs actually change. You are changing the world, and you are changing yourself.
Mike
mikekatz
Posts: 57
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:45 pm

Re: Is it just me who is going through a lot of existential angst about idealism?

Post by mikekatz »

Hedge wrote:I'm honestly confused by what you're saying Mike. You say you reach this state where you realise that there's no eyes, only the seeing, so there's no "you" who has the eyes, and no "others" who see through different eyes. But the feeling of unity aside, you realise that the experience you are having at that moment is an experience from a specific perspective, right? Even if there's no "you" and no "others", there's still a multitude of experience, as this unity is experienced from different perspectives, which, for the sake of simplicity and given the limitations of language, we can call "through your eyes" and "through others' eyes".
(I'm going of the assumption that you don't actually mean that there's no experience at all other than THE experience you are having, because then you wouldn't bother writing on the forum.)
Hi Hedge
It's not, as maybe you are asking, an experience of everything and everyone. There's no perspective. It's a blissful experiencing of unity and peace without there being a separate experiencer or experienced. Words fail, and can never be accurate.
Mike
Hedge90
Posts: 212
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:25 pm

Re: Is it just me who is going through a lot of existential angst about idealism?

Post by Hedge90 »

mikekatz wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:11 pm
Hedge wrote:I'm honestly confused by what you're saying Mike. You say you reach this state where you realise that there's no eyes, only the seeing, so there's no "you" who has the eyes, and no "others" who see through different eyes. But the feeling of unity aside, you realise that the experience you are having at that moment is an experience from a specific perspective, right? Even if there's no "you" and no "others", there's still a multitude of experience, as this unity is experienced from different perspectives, which, for the sake of simplicity and given the limitations of language, we can call "through your eyes" and "through others' eyes".
(I'm going of the assumption that you don't actually mean that there's no experience at all other than THE experience you are having, because then you wouldn't bother writing on the forum.)
Hi Hedge
It's not, as maybe you are asking, an experience of everything and everyone. There's no perspective. It's a blissful experiencing of unity and peace without there being a separate experiencer or experienced. Words fail, and can never be accurate.
Right, I understand that, and I had a similar experience too, through other means, so I get what you mean by not being able to express it with words. But the point, what Cleric is also getting at, that even though at that state your normal concepts of the world, including "me" and "not me", simply cease, this only takes place from the particular point of view you are experiencing. Other people are going on with their life, even though in that state, and for you, there are no other people, maybe no time, even. So Cleric's reasoning is pretty sound in asserting that it's overconfidence to say that this is the ultimate state of consciousness.
mikekatz
Posts: 57
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:45 pm

Re: Is it just me who is going through a lot of existential angst about idealism?

Post by mikekatz »

Cleric K wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 8:03 pm Thanks Mike. I can fully relate to the examples that you have given.
mikekatz wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 7:16 pm So I'm actually mystified why you think it should be possible to see the movie from any or all others' eyes. If there's duality, there is one's own eyes, and if there is no duality, there are no eyes. Your very framing of this question and anticipation of any kind of answer is itself steeped in duality.
Why should that be mystifying? Think about it. Entering the state of case 2) you lose all sense of Mike or anyone else. It's the background of everything and everyone. On entering and leaving that state you enter and leave Mike's eyes. Let's picture that very vividly. At one instance you're in the ethereal boundless realm, without any identity, only eternal awareness, then you 'zoom into' Mike's eyes and see the world through the prism of his consciousness. You can do this as many times as need - zoom out, zoom in.

Now the fact is that you always zoom back in the same pair of eyes - Mike's. You don't zoom into someone else's consciousness. You wonder why would I ask about such a thing. Well you said it yourself. The zoomed out state is the background of everything and everyone. So it is only natural that from this background you should be able to peek through the eyes of everyone. If you can't do that, it means that in the zoomed out state you're experiencing only a small area of the background, which still couples closely with Mike's eyes. Do you see what I mean? The point is that this zoomed out state is still only a certain perspective of the background consciousness (even though no longer felt to have anything to do with Mike). This impersonal perspective is still closely tied with Mike's eyes (even though not apparent in the zoomed out state) and that's why you keep zooming into the same pair of eyes every time - Mike's. In other words, the zoomed out state is indeed of Cosmic nature, but it is still only an island within the Cosmic background - even though we feel that this island is continuous with the ocean. And even though this island no longer has any hint of Mike-ness, it is still in certain relations to other similar islands, whose perspective will zoom in and out of other pairs of eyes.

Do you see the contradiction here? It makes no sense to claim that the zoomed out state is the background of everything and everyone if you can't zoom in into another pair of eyes. Now if you say that your zoomed out state is part (or more correctly - a certain perspective) of the background fabric of everything and everyone - that's a completely different story and it is what I described above. So let's get that cleared out.
I'm saying, as I just said to Hedge, I'll try different words, it's a feeling of unity, bliss, and happiness. And it's all encompassing, which does not mean it's an experience of the One World and everything that it experiences. It's non-dual, because there's no duality. Again, words fail.

I can quite agree that the impersonal state, as you put it, is Cosmic but not the whole story. Gurdjieff's structure of One world has an octave of consciousness proceeding from the top and ending at the level of the Sun (we are at the level of the Earth), meaning that as we are we have no possibility of receiving direct emanations from the top. But we can grow, according to him. Whatever. Beyond my experience, so speculation is useless.

There are many analogies to explain why Mike always comes back as Mike and not as Cleric. Spokes on a wheel, rays of sunlight, for example. We are each of us a unique and temporary manifestation of consciousness, the same consciousness that is everyone and everything else. We have different states of consciousness, which means we move up and down the same spoke or ray. We may have overlap / access to other spokes / rays, hence we can communicate, even telepathically, but we can't become each other. And not one word of this paragraph is literal, lol.

Again, how far back can we go, whether it's part or whole of One World, I can't know that. But it feels as complete as it can be for me now. And you are always talking about hierarchies in the spiritual world, so maybe there's more. That, for me, is intellectual speculation. if it's real for you, I truly admire you.
Mike
User avatar
Cleric K
Posts: 1657
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:40 pm

Re: Is it just me who is going through a lot of existential angst about idealism?

Post by Cleric K »

mikekatz wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:35 pm I'm saying, as I just said to Hedge, I'll try different words, it's a feeling of unity, bliss, and happiness. And it's all encompassing, which does not mean it's an experience of the One World and everything that it experiences. It's non-dual, because there's no duality. Again, words fail.
OK. Now it's clear.
mikekatz wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:35 pm I can quite agree that the impersonal state, as you put it, is Cosmic but not the whole story. Gurdjieff's structure of One world has an octave of consciousness proceeding from the top and ending at the level of the Sun (we are at the level of the Earth), meaning that as we are we have no possibility of receiving direct emanations from the top. But we can grow, according to him. Whatever. Beyond my experience, so speculation is useless.

There are many analogies to explain why Mike always comes back as Mike and not as Cleric. Spokes on a wheel, rays of sunlight, for example. We are each of us a unique and temporary manifestation of consciousness, the same consciousness that is everyone and everything else. We have different states of consciousness, which means we move up and down the same spoke or ray. We may have overlap / access to other spokes / rays, hence we can communicate, even telepathically, but we can't become each other. And not one word of this paragraph is literal, lol.

Again, how far back can we go, whether it's part or whole of One World, I can't know that. But it feels as complete as it can be for me now. And you are always talking about hierarchies in the spiritual world, so maybe there's more. That, for me, is intellectual speculation. if it's real for you, I truly admire you.
Yes, the whole effort here is to point attention to the fact that the blissful state at the upper edge of our Earthly consciousness can be worked upon, we can awaken there within a higher order of our spiritual activity. When we awaken there, then we already understand what the inner hierarchy of being really is (and not the caricature of external pyramidal power structure of some atomic gods).

Thank you for your previous post with your example about anger. It is very useful and I'll try to elaborate on it, with the intent to show how we can make intuitive sense of what the higher orders of consciousness are. But I'll do this tomorrow because in my tz it's already rather late.
Post Reply