Whirlpool's core/first motion

[AshvinP]

...

Thank you, no worries! Not to diminish my appreciation for this benevolent post, I’ll for now refrain from asking about the new insights here. I will admit that in my case work is being quite busy at the moment on the other thread and tracing back : )

No worries. Please don't think I am expecting a response to all these posts that I have hit you with recently. I would rather someone take a month and try to understand the content as best they can before responding, than take the most superficial understanding and respond after a few hours. Take all the time you need!

[AshvinP]

It cannot relate to a reality that you will not allow it to perceive. It can poorly help
you to survive when you do not allow it to use its abilities to discover those true
conditions in which it must manipulate. You put blinders upon it, and then say that it
cannot see."

That's very interesting, thanks!

I am not familiar with Seth speaks, but much of what we write here is pointing to this same reality of the higher Self and, more importantly, concrete and prudent ways to engage with it. There is certainly a rhythmic balance between the 'waking' and 'sleeping' states which should be striven for. As your passage references, we all have the higher perceptual organs in germinal form and they are only waiting to be awakened within us.

Each of our sense organs provides us with a partial knowledge of the world, and it is interesting to note the hierarchy that exists amongst them. The sense of touch is concerned principally with solids. One cannot feel gaseous or etheric matter at all and liquids only to a certain extent: the sense of touch specializes in solid, tangible realities. The sense of taste concerns what is liquid. If you object that a piece of toffee is solid enough, but when it is in your mouth you can certainly taste it, I would have to tell you that you haven’t studied the question very well: you can only taste what is in your mouth if it is being melted and liquefied by your saliva. And what about the sense of smell? This sense allows us to perceive odours, that is gaseous emanations. So the nose is also concerned with matter but it is matter of a subtler nature, for its particles float in the air. When we come to the sense of hearing we find that it is no longer concerned with matter but with waves and vibrations. The same is true of the sense of sight: sight brings us to the threshold of the etheric world. So this is how the senses are graded, as it were, hierarchically, ranging from the densest to the most subtle.

Now, if we want to penetrate into the astral world we can no longer rely on our five senses, we need another sense especially adapted for the purpose and capable of perceiving even subtler forms of matter. Anyone who has not developed this sixth sense cannot even be aware that there are other levels of matter, other regions. He never imagines that the universe is threaded through with other vibrations which can afford sensations far vaster and more intense than those known to him. If we want to touch something we have to be very close to it; to taste something, even more so. We can smell the scent of a flower from a certain distance; sounds can travel quite a long way to us, and we can see things which are even farther away, for our eyes are fashioned in such a way as to enable us to receive information and instructions from very far away. As you can see, with marvellous intelligence, nature has established this hierarchy amongst the five senses. But her work did not stop there: other senses must now put us in touch with vaster and more remote regions of the universe.

-Aïvanhov, Omraam Mikhaël

[Soul_of_Shu]

It cannot relate to a reality that you will not allow it to perceive. It can poorly help
you to survive when you do not allow it to use its abilities to discover those true
conditions in which it must manipulate. You put blinders upon it, and then say that it
cannot see."

That's very interesting, thanks!

I am not familiar with Seth speaks, but much of what we write here is pointing to this same reality of the higher Self and, more importantly, concrete and prudent ways to engage with it. There is certainly a rhythmic balance between the 'waking' and 'sleeping' states which should be striven for. As your passage references, we all have the higher perceptual organs in germinal form and they are only waiting to be awakened within us.

If time allows, you may also want to check out this explication of Seth on dreams ...

[Federica]

Oh dear dreamscape artists, if you only knew how far more dynamically and co-creatively involved you are in vastly greater dimensions of Reality than you re-cognize or give yourselves credit for, if only you could remember doing so upon re-focusing in this oh-so-limited slice of your infinite existence within the Eternal Validity of the Soul, of which Seth speaks ...

Soul_of_Shu,

Thank you for the wish! This space altogether seems like a dreamscape of its own, and I was completely unaware of Seth Roberts...
Trying to resist your video now and do some normal work before it piles up too much : )
Your thought is timely though, it's acutely timely.

[AshvinP]

It cannot relate to a reality that you will not allow it to perceive. It can poorly help
you to survive when you do not allow it to use its abilities to discover those true
conditions in which it must manipulate. You put blinders upon it, and then say that it
cannot see."

That's very interesting, thanks!

I am not familiar with Seth speaks, but much of what we write here is pointing to this same reality of the higher Self and, more importantly, concrete and prudent ways to engage with it. There is certainly a rhythmic balance between the 'waking' and 'sleeping' states which should be striven for. As your passage references, we all have the higher perceptual organs in germinal form and they are only waiting to be awakened within us.

If time allows, you may also want to check out this explication of Seth on dreams ...

I listened to some. From the summary:

We have discussed this subject to some degree. However we have not begun a study in depth. It is now time for us to do so. The personality as you know is composed of energy gestalts. The dreams created by the personality can be considered therefore as a part of the changing personality. We are speaking here in one context only, for we know that the dream universe is also to some extent independent of personality.

In this particular context however the dream world will be considered in its relationship to the personality. In many ways the dream universe does operate within this context, and is part of the personality framework. As the personality is changed by any experience or any action, so it is changed by its own dreams. Here again we see how energy or action operates within itself. We can even trace the actions and interactions.

As a personality is molded by his exterior circumstances, so is he also molded by the dreams that he creates, and which help to form his interior or psychic environment. To the whole self there is little differentiation made between actions that are of an exterior nature, and actions that are of an interior nature. While the ego makes these distinctions, the basic core of the personality does not do so.

A particularly vivid dream is every bit as real to the inner self as a vivid psychological experience that occurs within the waking state. It is important here that we realize that as far as the basic self is concerned no distinctions are made in this respect. The personality creates its dreams; the dreams are then experienced. The experience is indelibly recorded, and then changes the personality, again, in the same manner that any experience would.

So there is a spiritual reality supersensible to waking cognition, we are immersed in this reality in our sleep and dreams, we can figure out that much of our waking knowledge and inspiration is seeded in these normally subconscious states, and we use certain techniques to perhaps become lucid in our dreams. Agreed. Now what? Let's say someone discerns the deep logic of the above, starts working on their dream life to become more lucid, and wants to discover more precise relations of this immanent supersensible reality we are immersed in and how it feeds back into our physical-perceptual states of being, in a responsible way befitting the nature of these higher worlds. What is the next step?

I see there are a lot of 'Seth speaks' books by Jane Roberts - are there any which focus on evolving higher cognition to bridge continuity of consciousness and pursue scientific inquiries of the supersensible? It must be understood that this isn't some trivial detail, just another path that takes you to the spiritual realms and shows you around. We are always in the spiritual worlds and there is no shortage of brilliant, insightful, mystical, and visionary writers in the last 150 or so years who have made these accurate connections between them and our own. But what has changed? Do any greater number of people act as if the spiritual reality permeates our waking reality and feeds back into it in precise, evolving, discernable ways which we must factor into all our thoughts and actions during that waking reality?

One could say, it's simply because people like materialism so much that they ignore this spiritual wisdom from Jane. Yes, but not in a conscious way - they, including mystics and mediums, 'like' materialism in the deepest core of their being and there is no way into that core without practical, rigorous, sustained development of cognition. Very few people will have any sort of 'self-awakening' like Jane Roberts. And, even if they did, they may end up stopping exactly where she appeared to, satisfied with mediumship and selling books. The modern mystics really have no idea what they are missing out on, and what the world is missing out on, if only they were aware of and incorporated the intuitive thinking path into their journey. After Cleric's last few posts, I thought maybe it was clear what we are speaking of by "intuitive thinking as a spiritual path", but it seems that it's impossible to imagine what it is until one has experienced its reality first-hand.

That is the brilliance of PoSA - in the pursuit of philosophy/phenomenology, generally within the German idealist tradition, Steiner manages to give the reader a first-hand experience of this path without delving into all sorts of claims about "spiritual worlds" and how to jump right into them, which is quite a reckless thing to do if one understands these worlds and their continuity with our own aright. One simply has to approach it with an open heart and mind, and a willingness to perhaps take on greater thinking responsibility than the average person is used to. I know it's hard to conceive of how a spiritual medium channeling beings in the higher worlds could still be in the realm of "abstract thinking" about the spiritual, but it's perfectly possible and even likely if no other initiatory training takes place. Their experiences are very real, but their understanding and communication of them to others is still very misleading. The modern initiation doesn't require a medium or a guru - any individual can do it on their own - but that individual also must become solemn and responsible in their approach of the spiritual worlds if that approach is to bear good fruit.

Now it can happen that at some particular time in his life, without making any special preparation for it, a person discovers that higher organs of this nature have been developing within him. This will mean that a kind of involuntary self-awakening has taken place. He will find that he has through this become a completely changed man. His whole inner experience is no vastly enriched. And he will be fully persuaded that no knowledge of the physical world could ever afford him such bliss, such serene satisfaction, such inner warmth, as can the knowledge that opens up before him now that he has a faculty of cognition that is independent of physical impressions. Strength and confidence will stream into his will from a spiritual world.

Such instances of self-initiation do occur. They should however not lead one to imagine that the right thing to do is simply to wait for it and make no effort towards obtaining Initiation by means of a properly ordered training. We have no need to speak here any further of self-initiation, since it can come about without the person's following any rules or precepts. What we are concerned with is how the organs of perception that are latent in man's soul may be developed by spiritual training. If people do not feel any particular urge to take steps for their own inner development, it is easy for them to think that since the life of man goes forward under the guidance of spiritual Powers, he ought not to interfere in their leadership but should wait quietly for the moment when these Powers shall deem it right to open to him another world. They will feel that any desire to intermeddle in this way with the wisdom of spiritual guidance is quite unjustified, and bespeaks a kind of presumption. One who takes this view will only be persuaded to modify it when a certain line of thought begins to make a strong impression on him — namely when he is ready to say: “The wise guidance of spiritual Powers has given me certain faculties. It has not bestowed these faculties on me for me to leave them unemployed, but rather that I may put them to use. The wisdom of the guidance is to be seen in the fact that seeds have been planted in me of a higher state of consciousness; and I fail to understand the guidance aright if I do not regard it as a duty to set before me the high ideal: that whatever can become manifest to man through the development of his spiritual powers shall become so manifest.” When such a thought has taken strong enough hold, then the mistrust that was felt of any training for the attainment of a higher state of consciousness shall disappear.

[Soul_of_Shu]

So there is a spiritual reality supersensible to waking cognition, we are immersed in this reality in our sleep and dreams, we can figure out that much of our waking knowledge and inspiration is seeded in these normally subconscious states, and we use certain techniques to perhaps become lucid in our dreams. Agreed. Now what? Let's say someone discerns the deep logic of the above, starts working on their dream life to become more lucid, and wants to discover more precise relations of this immanent supersensible reality we are immersed in and how it feeds back into our physical-perceptual states of being, in a responsible way befitting the nature of these higher worlds. What is the next step?

I see there are a lot of 'Seth speaks' books by Jane Roberts - are there any which focus on evolving higher cognition to bridge continuity of consciousness and pursue scientific inquiries of the supersensible? It must be understood that this isn't some trivial detail, just another path that takes you to the spiritual realms and shows you around. We are always in the spiritual worlds and there is no shortage of brilliant, insightful, mystical, and visionary writers in the last 150 or so years who have made these accurate connections between them and our own. But what has changed? Do any greater number of people act as if the spiritual reality permeates our waking reality and feeds back into it in precise, evolving, discernable ways which we must factor into all our thoughts and actions during that waking reality?

One could say, it's simply because people like materialism so much that they ignore this spiritual wisdom from Jane. Yes, but not in a conscious way - they, including mystics and mediums, 'like' materialism in the deepest core of their being and there is no way into that core without practical, rigorous, sustained development of cognition. Very few people will have any sort of 'self-awakening' like Jane Roberts. And, even if they did, they may end up stopping exactly where she appeared to, satisfied with mediumship and selling books. The modern mystics really have no idea what they are missing out on, and what the world is missing out on, if only they were aware of and incorporated the intuitive thinking path into their journey. After Cleric's last few posts, I thought maybe it was clear what we are speaking of by "intuitive thinking as a spiritual path", but it seems that it's impossible to imagine what it is until one has experienced its reality first-hand.

Well Jane passed on quite young, so who knows what further insights and practices might have been offered, had the relationship carried on. She certainly did not seem satisfied that there were no further steps. What is the next step? As mentioned earlier, my take is that everyone is where they're at in their unique journey, for reasons crucial and integral to their metamorphosis, and there are steps that can't be avoided or bypassed. So it's pointless pointing out the need for solemn effort being put into steps beyond whatever preceding steps must be taken. When the time is eventually ripe for the next crucial step in any given journey, then whatever effort is required will not, indeed cannot, be avoided. Good thing the validity of the soul is eternal

[Cleric K]

Well Jane passed on quite young, so who knows what further insights and practices might have been offered, had the relationship carried on. She certainly did not seem satisfied that there were no further steps. What is the next step? As mentioned earlier, my take is that everyone is where they're at in their unique journey, for reasons crucial and integral to their metamorphosis, and there are steps that can't be avoided or bypassed. So it's pointless pointing out the need for solemn effort being put into steps beyond whatever preceding steps must be taken. When the time is eventually ripe for the next crucial step in any given journey, then whatever effort is required will not, indeed cannot, be avoided. Good thing the validity of the soul is eternal

Does this mean that if in a week I have an exam, I can rest assured that if it was meant to be I cannot avoid success even if I forcefully try to fail (that is, not study at all)? In this sense, is it possible for one to exercise (or fail to exercise) their freedom in such a way that they actually ruin their stream of becoming?

[Soul_of_Shu]

Does this mean that if in a week I have an exam, I can rest assured that if it was meant to be I cannot avoid success even if I forcefully try to fail (that is, not study at all)? In this sense, is it possible for one to exercise (or fail to exercise) their freedom in such a way that they actually ruin their stream of becoming?

I don't find this an apt analogy. This spiritual journey is not likened to undergoing some course of study, then taking some prescribed exam which one must pass to move on. It's been much more like the intuitive process of creating poetry, which has nothing to do with requiring some effortful study—such as reading tutorial books, or being schooled on how to write good poetry—nor is it as if by writing ten thousand poems, each subsequent poem is a truer poem. Rather, each expression along the way has been crucial and integral to the making of the poet, even the ones that had to be abandoned as failed attempts. Actually, I see them as no less valuable as the ones that take flight, and I welcome them to this day. So no, I don't feel I could have somehow ruined becoming a poet.

[AshvinP]

Does this mean that if in a week I have an exam, I can rest assured that if it was meant to be I cannot avoid success even if I forcefully try to fail (that is, not study at all)? In this sense, is it possible for one to exercise (or fail to exercise) their freedom in such a way that they actually ruin their stream of becoming?

I don't find this an apt analogy. This spiritual journey is not likened to undergoing some course of study, then taking some prescribed exam which one must pass to move on. It's been much more like the intuitive process of creating poetry, which has nothing to do with requiring some effortful study—such as reading books, or being schooled on how to write good poetry—nor is it as if by writing ten thousand poems, each subsequent poem is a truer poem. Rather, each expression along the way has been crucial and integral to the making of the poet, even the ones that had to be abandoned as failed attempts. Actually, I see them as no less valuable as the ones that take flight, and I welcome them to this day.

Briefly, how do you know the failed attempts were crucial and integral? Would they have been crucial and integral exactly the same if you had no idea how or why they were crucial and integral? The analogy content hardly matters here, but the underlying point. What we are actually doing in thinking is so out of phase with the content we are thinking, that we will discount or deny the utility of responsible thinking while we are responsibly thinking. We could never assess the utility of this thinking unless we were thinking. This is simply a plain fact. So then the question becomes, are there yet more crucial and integral attempts in our creative becoming which have never been made, because they were never imagined to exist and be possible, because the intellect arbitrarily decided to deny the utility of what it is actually doing, while it was actually doing it? If we can honestly confront these questions, then we have already made substantial progress towards awakening to our thinking as spiritual activity.

[Soul_of_Shu]

Briefly, how do you know the failed attempts were crucial and integral?

Because they taught me what doesn't take flight. I'm surely not seeing how such failed attempts, being pretty much inevitable, can ruin the calling of becoming the poet. Indeed, one is all the more compelled to carry on.