Whirlpool's core/first motion

[Cleric K]

Does this mean that if in a week I have an exam, I can rest assured that if it was meant to be I cannot avoid success even if I forcefully try to fail (that is, not study at all)? In this sense, is it possible for one to exercise (or fail to exercise) their freedom in such a way that they actually ruin their stream of becoming?

I don't find this an apt analogy. This spiritual journey is not likened to undergoing some course of study, then taking some prescribed exam which one must pass to move on. It's been much more like the intuitive process of creating poetry, which has nothing to do with requiring some effortful study—such as reading tutorial books, or being schooled on how to write good poetry—nor is it as if by writing ten thousand poems, each subsequent poem is a truer poem. Rather, each expression along the way has been crucial and integral to the making of the poet, even the ones that had to be abandoned as failed attempts. Actually, I see them as no less valuable as the ones that take flight, and I welcome them to this day. So no, I don't feel I could have somehow ruined becoming a poet.

Another question besides Ashvin's, would be to enter the poetry metaphor more concretely.

What does it mean in concrete terms to be on a spiritual journey where we create poetry? What is it in which we try, fail and improve? What is it that changes and develops? And how that thing is related to the flow of outer life? Because let's face it, this metaphor places certain disconnect between sensory life and the so called poetic spiritual journey. It is self-evident that for outer life we need effort to learn its laws, its elements and to understand the temporal dynamics. Society doesn't consists of free electrons where each one learns from scratch through trial and error, with no one taking the care to build upon the massive shared experience.

So at what point the flow of sensory life becomes split from the flow of the spiritual journey for which there are no longer laws, no temporal rhythms, no sharable wisdom attained at the price of many many lifetimes of exceptional beings, and instead of that we have strictly personal progression of trial and error which for some reason we believe can never go wrong? What is this sphere of spiritual poetry which is completely independent of our shared dream flow and thus requires nothing outside of itself?

[Soul_of_Shu]

What is this sphere of spiritual poetry which is completely independent of our shared dream flow and thus requires nothing outside of itself?

What I was trying to convey—notwithstanding the shared dream from which such inspiration flows—is that I'm not seeing how the mistaken attempts, being pretty much inevitable, are not crucial and integral lessons, or can ruin the calling of becoming this version of the analogous 'poet' of the spirit. If so, how so?

[AshvinP]

What is this sphere of spiritual poetry which is completely independent of our shared dream flow and thus requires nothing outside of itself?

What I was trying to convey—notwithstanding the shared dream from which such inspiration flows—is that I'm not seeing how the mistaken attempts, being pretty much inevitable, are not crucial and integral lessons, or can ruin the calling of becoming this version of the analogous 'poet' of the spirit. If so, how so?

Sorry, I know it can get confusing with Cleric and I both responding and asking questions. Just keep my comments in the background of your discussion, no need to respond.

What does poetry do? It makes analogies between the sensory world and the supersensible worlds of soul and spirit. You might incorporate the laws of magnetism into a poem so as to point towards the forces of attraction and repulsion we experience with our inner activity, which are deeply aesthetic and moral in their meaning. But what makes this metaphorical analogizing possible, if not the fact that the laws of the sensory world, which will easily ruin our day and our life if we never become aware of them through shared experience and therefore ignore them, are reflections or shadows of higher laws of the worlds of soul and spirit? The fact that physical successes and failings can also instruct us on those of the higher worlds is what makes the poetic endeavor, indeed all cultural and aesthetic endeavors, possible.

[Soul_of_Shu]

...
To rephrase the question, as the eternal validity of the soul is reckoned, how is any given expression of that validity doomed to ultimate ruin, however problematic the mistaken attempts may be? Where is some time limit placed on figuring it out?

[Cleric K]

What I was trying to convey—notwithstanding the shared dream from which such inspiration flows—is that I'm not seeing how the mistaken attempts, being pretty much inevitable, are not crucial and integral lessons, or can ruin the calling of becoming this version of the analogous 'poet' of the spirit. If so, how so?

Of course, mistakes are inevitable and they are the natural feedback mechanism, through which we find our way in the living flow. The point of concern is:

It's been much more like the intuitive process of creating poetry, which has nothing to do with requiring some effortful study—such as reading tutorial books, or being schooled on how to write good poetry—nor is it as if by writing ten thousand poems, each subsequent poem is a truer poem.

Is the fact that mistakes are inevitable, a sensible justification to avoid any effortful study which can help us avoid the shared mistakes of the past? I repeat myself - these things are self-evident in our sensory life. We wouldn't move an iota if every person had to invent for themselves mathematics, language, writing, food production, shelter building, etc. This is crystal clear. Not even animals do that. In every incarnation we do need effortful study in order to catch up and continue building further. Note that this doesn't eliminate the chance of future mistakes, yet it expands the possibilities to manifest our ideations in the dream flow. This is true for moral life, the practical sciences and the arts. Poetry is more accessible because we need only language with which we get acquainted anyway. But what if we want to paint, play music, sculpt? These arts manifest ideations through tools and techniques. Learning these from accumulated lore doesn't restrict our flow of inspiration but simply saves us time for reinventing the wheel. If the tools and techniques are insufficient to express our creative ideas, we can be the next great virtuoso who invents something new, which those after us will use.

Things are not that different in spiritual life. In the other thread we have dialog with Federica, where we're at a point to question whether being active in the world of feelings is at all possible. Is it wise to say that nothing can be acquired in this field through effortful study (and practice, of course)? Just as in art, spiritual evolution has attained to understanding and techniques for transforming our soul organism (cleaning the pipes), such that it can become a better outlet for Divine Inspiration.

So if we conceive of the spiritual journey as something which gains nothing from understanding everything that has been developed so far, then of what nature is this 'poetry'? If it can't benefit from anything that has already been unveiled in the course of evolution, then it can only stand quite disconnected from anything sharable. This 'poetry' is like a strictly personal gem that we're slowly polishing through trial and error, yet it is of such a nature that anyone else's polishing experiences are completely inapplicable in our case, and ours to their. That's why I'm curious what in your view the spiritual journey and its poetry, consist of? What is this which becomes shut off from the world of shared experience and can be perfected only by a personal and linear progression of trials.

[AshvinP]

...
To rephrase the question, as the eternal validity of the soul is reckoned, how is any given expression of that validity doomed to ultimate ruin, however problematic the mistaken attempts may be? Where is some time limit placed on figuring it out?

When we speak of these concepts as "abstract", such as the laws of Karma, reincarnation, higher worlds, etc. - essentially this is what we mean. It is felt like they have no practical influence on the here and now of our existence, there are no stakes to whether we know them or don't. That is really the test of whether they are conceived only abstractly or also livingly. Sure the soul is eternal, but doesn't it make a difference how the eternal soul becomes who it is through successive 'sleeping' and 'waking' states - whether the path is relatively smooth and progressive with greater continuity of consciousness or whether, for a time being, it starts to resemble something looking like this below? By learning the lessons to be mined from these successive states (deeply moral lessons), with all the collective tools at our disposal, we gain the possibility of actually becoming 'awake' through the whole thing, instead of being stuck on repeat and becoming ever-more resentful that we can't remember who we truly are.

[Soul_of_Shu]

That's why I'm curious what in your view the spiritual journey and its poetry, consist of?

It consists of creating 'poetry', that being the teaching from the Oversoul. Never felt any need for some intellectual analysis or deconstruction. No advice was sought or taken. No concerns about ruination. Should I have?

[Soul_of_Shu]

... we gain the possibility of actually becoming 'awake' through the whole thing, instead of being stuck on repeat and becoming ever-more resentful that we can't remember who we truly are.

Perhaps learning from the futility of resentment is also a crucial and integral step.

[Cleric K]

It consists of creating 'poetry', that being the teaching from the Oversoul. Never felt any need for some intellectual analysis or deconstruction. No advice was sought or taken. No concerns about ruination. Should I have?

I admit, I don't remember a more difficult post than this from my experience here I wrote and discarded the text many times and I finally surrender. There's a thick wall and there's nothing that I can say (which hasn't been said before) which can make any difference.

[AshvinP]

... we gain the possibility of actually becoming 'awake' through the whole thing, instead of being stuck on repeat and becoming ever-more resentful that we can't remember who we truly are.

Perhaps learning from the futility of resentment is also a crucial and integral step.

Well, this is disappointing. I feel you are simply expressing directly what is implicit in most comments here - "we have absolutely no interest in knowing the spiritual worlds". It's not a question of following Steiner or Anthroposophy either - many esoteric streams converge on the same underlying observations of spiritual evolution we are pointing to here. When we wake up in the morning, we don't expect beings to simply bring everything we need to our front door after we evolve from infancy. If the period once we go to sleep, or once we die, and the physical sheath is laid aside is continuous with the waking/living state, then why do we expect this will be done for us? This is no different than believing some old man with a white beard is going to let us into the pearly gates after we die if we simply believe we are spiritual.

No living organism has ever evolved by waiting passively for beings to give them what they need to adapt and grow. Modern humans are not special in this regard. Actually, the time for passive differentiation into the sensory world has already passed thousands of years prior, and any further passive existence of this sort will create irreconcilable fragmentation and deep unconsciousness. This is what sound logical reasoning indicates. Anyone who has overcome materialistic dogma and knows Consicousness leads to perceptual appearance, not the other way around, also knows, deep down, it is possible to know everything we are saying here through their own experience and reasoning. They simply don't want to know.

In the new Matrix movie, Neo is re-enslaved by the Matrix machines because they convince him all his spiritual memories are part of his own computer simulation, rather than an objetive spiritual reality beyond the Maya that he once participated in. That appears to be the case with analytic idealism and most people here, even those critical of analytic idealism. They went from slumbering in materialist dogma to slumbering in, "it's all my own simulation, so what does it even matter?" That is yet another Maya dream character speaking within the dream, not an awakened soul.

Am I awakened? No, but I am perfectly aware of how and why I am not awakened, and I am increasingly aware of the tendencies within me which desperately want me to stay asleep. Simply knowing that, and knowing it is possible to awaken, keeps me working towards that awakening. Most people here feel they are already awakened, or that simply doing nothing is sufficient for evolving/awakening (these are synonymous), and therefore have no desire to actually do inner work for awakening. It is perfectly clear the problem is not in our writing or argument, because these are not even questioned, but in the desire of people not to understand anything beyond the Maya dreamscape of abstract onceptualizations with no stakes.