Whirlpool's core/first motion

[AshvinP]

You haven't yet pointed to any precise spiritual knowledge you have gained from experience, not even with metaphors or analogies, only some vague inspirative connection with the Oversoul. Can you point to anything more tangible than that?

There's the lawyerly persona demanding just the facts again As if you can have any way to know what profound meaning and effect this "vague inspirative connection" has for this psyche, behind which transcribed words, all of which are ultimately a poor translation, as another poet put it, is an unconditionally Loving presence that were I to attempt to speak in the Voice I actually 'hear', I would be gladly dumbstruck, rather than inclined to offer 'spiritual knowledge' such as this ...

It's quite simple - I'm asking if your Daemon has inspired any spiritual knowledge which can be shared with others, rather than hoarded to oneself. Does it even motivate you to share such knowledge? Of course this knowledge can't be captured by 'transcribed words', but you can't even make an effort to give us rough outlines of what awaits us across the threshold of deep sleep and death? Cleric writes such things daily, you can't offer it even once? What sort of spiritual beings will we meet, how do we perceive them, how do they communicate with us, what deeds during life do we carry with us into the period between death and rebirth, etc. What about our subtle bodies - do these exist, how are they perceived, what other living beings do we share them with?

These and many similar questions should at least have been given in vague outlines from any truly Sun-inspired source. I'm not asking for detailed instructions, just anything you can offer the world so that others can also potentially share in that Loving presence and hear that Voice.

Each individual is independent, autonomous, that is agreed, but they are also linked to the human community and still further to all the realms of nature, to the cosmic community. We therefore live two lives simultaneously. For the majority of people, this happens unconsciously, but it is desirable that people become conscious. Those who tend to melt into cosmic life must not lose consciousness of their ‘ego’, so they are always able to think and act as responsible beings. And those who feel they are individuals quite distinct from others, while holding on to their own character, must become conscious that they are cells in the cosmic body, that they belong to a whole. Yes, but human beings do not belong to this universal whole as if they were only a stone, a plant or an animal. As thinking beings, they have another part to play: they must participate in the construction of the edifice of collective life. As long as they work only for themselves, nothing good can happen to them.

[Soul_of_Shu]

Well, the point was simple enough, although the last few posts got more heated than necessary.

I can put that into a picture. In our age we begin our life mostly as in a dark cave, not knowing up from down. Many people coming here do so because of certain inner event similar to that of Shu, which impels one to seek deeper understanding.

This is a very rough way to put it but we can speak of three kinds of illumination and consequent transformation.

The first is in which we experience illumination by grace, which adds a new layer to our being. In simplest terms, we understand from direct experience that we're not the body but a spiritual being with the corporeal spectrum being only a part of the full spectrum. How to proceed from this point is unclear. For many this is seen as the highest revelation possible, the event which concludes the purpose of Earthly existence. In any case, if there's something more to be experienced it can be expected once again only by grace, simply because even if we want to continue further, we don't conceive of any direction. There's still no up and down.

The second kind is where we are illuminated by grace but we also receive an understanding of a direction. It is like a crack opens in the cave above and the Sun floods in. Now we also have a concept of spiritual up and down (not to be taken in strictly spatial way! We can say also inwards and outwards. Spatial directions are only illustrative). Yet we're still unclear how to move. Basically we sit and wait for the Sun to come down to us or as a last resort - we to go to it after death.

The third kind is like the second but we also understand how our Earthly self is modulated on the floods of light. Now we understand that the Sun is our higher self, whose light is stepped down as it enters the cave. Now we not only understand up and down but we also know that it is through our own activity that we must seek to express more and more fully the Sun being shining in our cave. The Sun Self of course bestows on us all the means - strength, love, wisdom - yet it is a two way process, it is our cave-self who can choose in absolute freedom to become a conductor of them and to manifest them individually at our level of consciousness. When this path is pursued we also begin to receive glimpses of the Sun perspective of our being, through which we understand how our current cave destiny is entangled in the evolutionary flow of the whole humanity. The Sun Self is one.

This was heated?! Ain't nothin' compared to some of the spats of old

Anyway, I feel much affinity for the insight offered above. So surely all is not lost ✌

[Federica]

There is a small chance that my ignorance of history and vicissitudes here, my inability to judge, inability to even comprehend the whole story, can somehow paradoxically help. What is lent to me by trying to sink into the moments of this story is, exhaustion and respite, asking to be seen by everyone involved first. Causes of exhaustion call for respite. I want to give full credit to this necessity.
Realizing there is also a chance this might land as tastless or inappropriate, I take the risk in good faith. I apologize if this is happening.

Not inappropriate at all, quite the contrary. I am actually innately inclined to take rather long periods of respite and quietude, but alas, as the only mod here, I have a duty to at least listen in, however much it can occasionally be quite discomforting when the tit-for-tat spiteful nastiness comes to the fore. Are you by any chance interested in a volunteer job here?

: )
I must have been more cryptic than I thought but it's probably better so! : ) Anyway if this moderation thing is more than a banter it's good that it came out!

[Soul_of_Shu]

It's quite simple - I'm asking if your Daemon has inspired any spiritual knowledge which can be shared with others, rather than hoarded to oneself. Does it even motivate you to share such knowledge? Of course this knowledge can't be captured by 'transcribed words', but you can't even make an effort to give us rough outlines of what awaits us across the threshold of deep sleep and death? Cleric writes such things daily, you can't offer it even once? What sort of spiritual beings will we meet, how do we perceive them, how do they communicate with us, what deeds during life do we carry with us into the period between death and rebirth, etc. What about our subtle bodies - do these exist, how are they perceived, what other living beings do we share them with?

These and many similar questions should at least have been given in vague outlines from any truly Sun-inspired source. I'm not asking for detailed instructions, just anything you can offer the world so that others can also potentially share in that Loving presence and hear that Voice. True, these are mostly rhetorical, because I already know there will be no answer forthcoming. The self-awakened mystical path lives for itself alone. It imagines an individual can join the Pure Consciousness or Godhead after death while everyone else slowly grinds away at spiritual evolution for aeons. It feels no impulse to sacrifice and raise up others along with it, to leave no creatures behind. It says, "I must have already made my sacrifices in past lifetimes, so I'm good, thanks!" It feels collective, shared inner experience on the Earthy plane counts for nothing. In short, it is mysticized materialism which has somehow managed to become even more egoistic and nihilistic.

Sure I could come up with some version of what Cleric is offering here, but quite honestly he has a facility for such deconstruction that I can't really improve upon. The 'Voice' compels this psyche to create poetry, I suppose because that is the facility that for whatever reason I'm most gifted with, and which fills the role of speaking to those who feel more affinity for the poetic rather than the noetic. Most of the information that I might try to convey comes in the nightly dreamtime, and even when I've been inclined to try to convey it in word form, as I've tried to do upon occasion, it just doesn't come out in any way I feel satisfied with, and so I don't suppose that it would satisfy anyone else. Somehow it always seems to revert to being more of a forced prose-like tone poem than the tome I might have intended. So while the predisposed poetic offerings might not live up to your expectations of what 'spiritual knowledge' must appear as, I feel no need to live up to those expectations, and can only wonder why you would take my espousing of 'spiritual knowledge' as gospel, anymore than you might take the information in the recent Gigi Young video I shared as gospel, unless it somehow resonates and fits with your own interpretive take on the imaginal.

Anyway, with the usual synchronicity, I will still offer the latest from Mark Vernon here, which again feels quite pertinent to the recent turn this discussion has taken ...

[AshvinP]

It's quite simple - I'm asking if your Daemon has inspired any spiritual knowledge which can be shared with others, rather than hoarded to oneself. Does it even motivate you to share such knowledge? Of course this knowledge can't be captured by 'transcribed words', but you can't even make an effort to give us rough outlines of what awaits us across the threshold of deep sleep and death? Cleric writes such things daily, you can't offer it even once? What sort of spiritual beings will we meet, how do we perceive them, how do they communicate with us, what deeds during life do we carry with us into the period between death and rebirth, etc. What about our subtle bodies - do these exist, how are they perceived, what other living beings do we share them with?

These and many similar questions should at least have been given in vague outlines from any truly Sun-inspired source. I'm not asking for detailed instructions, just anything you can offer the world so that others can also potentially share in that Loving presence and hear that Voice. True, these are mostly rhetorical, because I already know there will be no answer forthcoming. The self-awakened mystical path lives for itself alone. It imagines an individual can join the Pure Consciousness or Godhead after death while everyone else slowly grinds away at spiritual evolution for aeons. It feels no impulse to sacrifice and raise up others along with it, to leave no creatures behind. It says, "I must have already made my sacrifices in past lifetimes, so I'm good, thanks!" It feels collective, shared inner experience on the Earthy plane counts for nothing. In short, it is mysticized materialism which has somehow managed to become even more egoistic and nihilistic.

Sure I could come up with some version of what Cleric is offering here, but quite honestly he has a facility for such deconstruction that I can't really improve upon. The 'Voice' compels this psyche to create poetry, I suppose because that is the facility that for whatever reason I'm most gifted with, and which fills the role of speaking to those who feel more affinity for the poetic rather than the noetic. Most of the information that I might try to convey comes in the nightly dreamtime, and even when I've been inclined to try to convey it in word form, as I've tried to do upon occasion, it just doesn't come out in any way I feel satisfied with, and so I don't suppose that it would satisfy anyone else. Somehow it always seems to revert to being more of a forced prose-like tone poem than the tome I might have intended. So while the predisposed poetic offerings might not live up to your expectations of what 'spiritual knowledge' must appear as, I feel no need to live up to those expectations, and can only wonder why you would take my espousing of 'spiritual knowledge' as gospel, anymore than you might take the information in the recent Gigi Young video I shared as gospel, unless it somehow resonates and fits with your own interpretive take on the imaginal.

Anyway, with the usual synchronicity, I will still offer the latest from Mark Vernon here, which again feels quite pertinent to the recent turn this discussion has taken ...

It's not about what spiritual reality is or isn't. Despite my rhetorical questions, Cleric doesn't get much into details like those. As he said, every person must pursue the higher worlds in complete freedom, which means those details don't really need to be described here. People who walk the path of the Spirit will find them in their own way, and people who don't, won't. In this way, I am all for the idea that Divine knowlede is reaveled to each who is actively seeking in their proper season. But people cannot make a free decision to seek or not seek without knowledge - first and foremost, knowledge that there is a decision to be made. So it really comes down to what we are willing to admit to ourselves.

We keep saying this isn't an intellectual theory about the spiritual worlds, but I realize now it's nearly impossible for people to imagine what that means. Especially people who already believe they are on the vanguard of philosophical and spiritual wisdom. No matter how much we say our comments are symbols for a concrete reality to be experienced inwardly, no matter how many metaphors are made, it's like people only hear, "spiritual reality is made of X, Y, Z - once you configure these concepts properly, and have a profound mystical or visionary experience, you will then know the higher worlds." When we say, "no, this isn't the case, here's why...", the person thinks to himself, "oh man, these guys just want me to accept their version of spiritual reality, but I already have my own and it works just fine!" All subsequent clarifications on our part are practically ignored.

So you say, "my inspiration always sounds to me as a prose-like tone poem when I try to verabalize it, [implied] so that's just the way it always is." We point out, this is simply because you have failed to explore any other avenues of communication with the Divine via higher cognition. It is nothing other than the materialist who says, "rocks and plants look mindless, so that must be the way it is." Or the fundamentalist who says, "my mind cannot possibly encompass Divine ideas of the omnipotent God revealed in scripture, so that's just the way it is." But then the Lord only knows what goes through someone's mind when this is pointed out to them - do they pretend like they didn't see the words, do they think "nah, I'm nothing like that", is it felt "these people don't know me... I could never make such a simple mistake in my thinking like these other people"? I don't know, because we never get a response when we ask, "why are you assuming your current limits are absolute limits of the world, or even of yourself?"

It seems, to me anyway, the only path forward is radical honesty. Let's put the cards on the table. Do you really care if it's possible to commune with higher beings through Imagination, Inspiration, and Intuition as we keep indicating, like we would commune with a couple of friends at the park? Your comments imply that there is no interest or desire to do so, but it would help if you could state this explicitly, even if only to yourself. The irony is, if someone became fully aware of this desire or lack of desire within them, and then decided to accept or overcome it as the case may be, I would go home happy. I would think, "it seems the wise powers have another path for this person, since they have full knowledge of what's at stake but still no desire to pursue the spiritual differently." Then I would stop responding to these comments as well. You could post all the Seth speaks videos without a peep from me.

So, if I could snap my fingers right now and give you clairvoyance and clairaudience, where you understand the inspirations of higher beings crystal clear and could communicate what is necessary to others, would you accept it? Would you accept it knowing that it comes with the responsibility of doing everything in your power to point others towards the path of these higher beings, in full consciousness of who they are and full responsibility of their own duty to pay it forward? That you would have to walk, talk, live, and breathe the thus revealed truth every day for the rest of your life (let's assume that is 50 years for our purposes here)? There is absolutely no shame in admitting such a tasking responsibility is not desired right now. But if we refuse to even be honest with ourselves about this lack of desire, then what's the point? Then we are not making our decisions freely, but under compulsion of our self-imposed ignorance, since we hardly know there is a decision to be made.

Anyone reading this can ask this question of themselves. I don't even expect anyone to share it here. It's enough to ask yourself or the wise powers, pray or meditate on it a bit, see what comes back, and confront it honestly.

[Soul_of_Shu]

Anyone reading this can ask this question of themselves. I don't even expect anyone to share it here. It's enough to ask yourself or the wise powers, pray or meditate on it a bit, see what comes back, and confront it honestly.

I feel it's possible to commune with beings of 'higher' realms—spirit guides?—as that is what drew me to and compelled me to delve into the Seth material, which is nothing if not about such communication. Also, some childhood visitations with some light beings can be factored in, until I was told to stop talking nonsense by dear old mom and dad, whose word kids tend to take as true. As mentioned, for this psyche it now happens in the nightly dream state. Nonetheless, those dreamtime travels and visitations guide and inform aspects of this daily waking life, like knowing that some dear old friend in BC is not doing well with some illness, and that it's time to give him a call. And I see no reason why it wouldn't be possible to communicate in this way as naturally as we might communicate with some friends in the park. I expect this may well be the case with certain exceptional practitioners of shamanhood, and that it may well be possible in my own case, although since I do it already in the dream state I'm not sure why I would need to do it in the park instead, where I might be mistaken for a homeless lunatic Seriously, no doubt I could go much further in this regard, if I felt it was crucial that I do so. So I suppose it is the case that I don't feel much urgency, or need for going much further. Do I feel that everyone is capable of this to the same degree? I'm really not sure, however I'm not inclined to start telling folks that they really need to give this possibility some deep thought.

So can you go home happy now? I somehow doubt it, and I'm in for some more cross ex ... Anyway, it'll have to be tomorrow, as after a long day of gardening the nightly travels and visitations await.

[AshvinP]

Seriously, no doubt I could go much further in this regard, if I felt it was crucial that I do so. So I suppose it is the case that I don't feel much urgency, or need for going much further. Do I feel that everyone is capable of this to the same degree? I'm really not sure, however I'm not inclined to start telling folks that they really need to give this possibility some deep thought.

So can you go home happy now?

Yes! Well, "happy" isn't the right word, but kind of relieved that this was finally said in the open. I honestly think this is the first time Cleric or I have reached a truly shared understanding with someone on this forum. We now have a shared understanding of where the priorities and interests are re: the higher worlds. Your position is that of the 'self-awakened' person referenced by Steiner in the quote I shared earlier, and that's fine.

I'm sure you can understand why we find it a bit odd and frustrating when people engage with us for months or years on end, when it's clear we are 100% commited to show people this possibility deserves the most deep thought they can muster, but leave your sentiment above unsaid. Mostly we assume people are on this metaphysical idealist forum to go where their unprejudiced logic leads them, and perhaps gain practical ways of dealing with the meaning crisis within and surrounding them, and we proceed accordingly.

If the above is made known, though, we then know that no amount of logical arguments or illustrations will budge the person's perspective on the spiritual one bit, and we can all save a lot of time and facades. And we don't want to budge someone who positively desires not to unfold their higher capacities. When you post the Seth speaks video, I think to myself, "oh, Dana may be interested in hearing why this is flawed approach to the spiritual worlds - why it is impractical, misleading, and even dangerous without some training in wielding one's spiritual activity." That's why I comment on it. Perhaps my initial comment had too much an exasperated tone, but it also had substance relating to these cautions. Knowing what I know now about your interests or lack of them, I never would have responded.

[Soul_of_Shu]

Perhaps my initial comment had too much an exasperated tone, but it also had substance relating to these cautions. Knowing what I know now about your interests or lack of them, I never would have responded.

Whatever it may take to get folks to start taking communing with angels seriously, it seems unlikely to be due to you or I, or anyone else, imploring them to do so. But hey, feel free to feel exasperated, or vindicated, or unresponsive, or whatever you may feel. I can't really get overly worked up about this version of Ashvin, as this too will change. I trust that should we part ways, which may well be anytime now, and we should somehow manage to meet again, say twenty years onward, it'll be a very different version of Ashvin. I'm curious as to what the avatar image might be. And be ready for the question about how the communing with angels in the park is coming along. Meanwhile carry on.

[AshvinP]

Perhaps my initial comment had too much an exasperated tone, but it also had substance relating to these cautions. Knowing what I know now about your interests or lack of them, I never would have responded.

Whatever it may take to get folks to start taking communing with angels seriously, it seems unlikely to be due to you or I, or anyone else, imploring them to do so. But hey, feel free to feel exasperated, or vindicated, or unresponsive, or whatever you may feel. I can't really get overly worked up about this version of Ashvin, as this too will change. I trust that should we part ways, which may well be anytime now, and we should somehow manage to meet again, say twenty years onward, it'll be a very different version of Ashvin. I'm curious as to what the avatar image might be. And be ready for the question about how the communing with angels in the park is coming along. Meanwhile carry on.

I'd like to think I am growing and evolving from my Maya dream character identification as well, in ways completely unsuspected even a few months ago.

Inner desires and intentions determine what we can perceive and conceive (if we understand idealism seriously), and since I now know you have no desire or intention to understand what we write about devoleping higher spiritual capacities, there is no point continuing in writing to reach that understanding with you. If you want to believe Cleric and I are just saying you don't yet understand because we are vain or fickle people, and it has nothing to do with your just recently admitted desire not "to go much further", even though you have "no doubt you could go much further", that's fine.

[Federica]

Neither of you wanted that... wouldn't you undo the last 24 hours or so of this dialogue if you could?

I am not sure that pressing people to take a stance and declare themselves ready or not ready to make the effort to ponder given ideas going forward is valid, or even useful. I understand extreme focus and determination, but there is a freedom on both sides to engage in a conversation. That freedom is worth something... and there is a possibility on both sides to, even unexpectedly, bring something of value to the other... isn't it so?
And after all, the choice to refrain from commenting is always available on both sides at every moment. Isn't it enough?
'If I had known your answer in advance I wouldn't have spent my words'. Can it really work this way. Everything can change at every turn. I may be fine with where I am today only to realize tomorrow that a new call is there and I feel ready to cover new ground. Then what will I do with my lazy-thinker label?