This forum

[AshvinP]

I was thinking that this forum has come to look like a strange thing, hasn't it? I am really afraid to shake the ground this way, because I am getting enormous value from this forum. Still, someone has to say it, eller hur? (=or how? in Swedish - so much more powerful than “isn’t it?”)
Out of xxx, we are basically four active members, Ashvin, me, Lou, and Cleric. Soul_of_Shu has disappeared. Other members I see appearing regularly in older threads have also disappeared. Contributions from members other than the four afore-mentioned are quite sporadic - at least since I’ve been here, it’s been 3 months now - for example there’s this guy called Anthony, who seems to be very much into biblical reflections, or this other guy Lorenzo, whom I have a real hard time grasping what type of mind space he’s sending in his writings from. That’s about it... Strangely, it looks like a men-dominated field, as it seems. One could wonder why. Well, this is more of a curiosity, not so relevant.
Occasionally newcomers pop in just as I did, with a BK question, then they get quickly scared off by the Steinerian vibes, and never recover. Sometimes oldies throw in a reflection, either randomly, or in the spirit of ‘while we’re at it, why not post it on that forum too’. They also usually become quickly exhausted.
And what about the view count? That’s another puzzle. It seems to show that someone is reading from time to time. But then it remains a passive endeavor for some reason, and I have come to suspect that it’s mainly Lou clicking n-times on posts, hoping to get some more contemplative yield out of all his both/and playing cards. Does it all make any sense to anyone? You who are silent, be it as it may that you are reading this, am I misinterpreting you? And you who are active… alltså Ashivin, Cleric, Lou, are you not getting the same awkward sense that I am getting? Again, I don’t have any problem whatsoever with that, but I am curious. Is anyone having any thoughts? And if yes, why are you not saying anything.

When I used to play poker, there were two main games which people would play. The first was Texas Hold Em', where every player gets two cards face down, five cards are successively placed in the middle for the community, three after the first betting round (flop), one after the next betting round (turn), and the next after the last betting round (river). The player with the best five-card hand at the end, or whoever gets everyone else to fold their hands during the betting, wins the pot in the middle.

Every new game which starts up first begins with THE. It's easiest for average players to learn and for people to casually play, not needing to pay too much attention to what's going on or take the whole thing too seriously. Although there is technically "no limit", meaning there is no cap on what can be bet on any given betting round, the pots remain small because no one wants to bet their entire stack if it's 100x the size of the pot. People keep the bets small and someone who bets bigger will only get action when another player has a great hand. There is only one winner per hand, so things are kept simple. Eventually some of the more serious poker players turn to a new game called Omaha High-Low, which is 'pot limit'.

Each player gets four cards dealt face down this time, five community cards, and the max bet on each round is the current size of the pot. It's much harder to bluff people out of hands because the bets are small on the initial rounds, but if there are a couple active players with good hands, each round can get exponentially larger. Now players can win by either having the best five-card hand or the worst five-card hand. If one person has the best hand and one the worst hand, they will split the pot 50/50. If two players have the same best hand and one the worst hand, the former gets 25% each and the latter 50%. You can imagine how the strategic dynamics change because of all this. If you don't want to lose a lot of money quickly, you need to be paying close attention to every hand and also be decent at calculating odds on each round. People who are just there to casually play around will get wiped out.

Whenever Omaha is added to a game, the Texas game quickly dies out. All the interesting action is in Omaha. The stakes are higher and the actual strategy of the game is much more interesting. People have very little interest in the plain old Texas game anymore. Yet the Omaha game narrows down to a set of regular players who take it very seriously. Other people who are not so serious about playing occasionally jump into the action, but they go broke quickly and have no money left to buy in. Other players are just scared of buying into such a serious game and watch from the sidelines or lose interest in playing in the poker game altogether. They go searching for more THE games where they get back to the old two-card, high-hand routine. So I think this is a decent analogy to what has happened here.

THE is abstract metaphysical and religious speculation. You don't need to be paying too much attention to the world of living experience and ideas to buy in and play. You don't need to be too logically rigorous - after a minimal amount of reasoning through the world content, you can just jump to whatever preferred conclusion you like and say, "who knows, maybe this is the truth! no one can say otherwise". You can have a smoke, drink a beer, chat it up with your friends, have a good time, and that's the real purpose of joining the poker game in the first place. Once the stakes get higher and the game gets interesting, then one needs to pay much more attention and refine one's thinking skills. Then the original purpose gets sacrificed to that of seeking the objective truth of the matter, with precise, scientific, mathematical reasoning. If a person has no interest in making such an investment, and/or squanders all their thinking funds on various intellectual pursuits, they simply won't buy in and play. Little do they realize that one's interest in the Omaha game and meaning mined from the four-card, high-low dynamic will greatly increase after they gain a firm conviction to keep an open mind and make the sacrifices necessary in pursuit of the Truth.

Clear, fine metaphor, Ashvin, thank you! It really brings forth the idea that ‘casual’ is the least fitting word to describe the intuitive thinking path. I only hope the poker metaphor is not fitting to the point that being a bad card player means being disfavored on the path, because if that’s the case, I am clearly in trouble : ) The best game metaphor to capture my way would be one where it’s not required to be very strategic with thinking funds, more like a roulette game where I just put all the funds in bulk on one number! : ) If chance can be forced this way, that’s freedom : )

There is a saying in poker, 'play the player, not the cards'. In other words, intuition always trumps calculating the mathematical odds. I have no inclination to try and take people's money at the poker table anymore, but I imagine someone on the spiritual path who gained deep insights into the human psyche and thinking spirit could clean house by simply paying attention and playing the players more than the cards. It's all about recognizing the various patterns people naturally fall into over time, especially their betting patterns. Of course it wouldn't hurt to also develop mathematical thinking skills. In fact, the latter is integral to imaginative cognition and will come naturally as we develop it more.

[AshvinP]

You don't seem to understand that "you" are not doing the thinking. "I" is the solar dragon that lives in the Manipura chakra and becomes adorned with fantasies of Mercury and crowns himself a king (and is a rather well known archetype along with his angry associates). Look at your Anahata chakra - participatory consciousness, witness and sufferer. That consciousness is far more apt for the current times and an Aeon to be attained.

I don't conceptualize anymore, I have sacrificed my twisted reflections for the participatory consciousness which reveals the Cosmos by knowing.

Ashvin, contrary to what you might think, I do recognize that at the core of our beings we are exactly the same and I greet this unchanging principle within you through the riot of planets of the solar system colliding in some nebulous projection of multiplicity. I displayed my lack of enthusiasm for luciferian doctrine purely because, since you are on this forum, you must realise that what you see on planet Earth is in fact a mental pollution. Whence might it be coming from ?

If we take this idea of participatory consciousness in a living and pratical way, then the mental pollution must be our own creation at any given time. Certainly we are nested within much higher spiritual forces who contribute to that oscillating rhythm of over-physicalized and over-spiritualized perspective on reality, but we have now evolved the logical thinking faculty which can harmonize the rhythm and spiritualize the mentally polluted appearances in a gradual, healthy way. When that logical thinking faculty is imbued with devotional feeling, it metamorphoses to Imagination. There is nothing which destines any given individual today to continue experiencing the world around them as deadened, fixed forms with little connection to our own souls. There is no reason to be trapped in some prison planet except for the obstacles we secretly desire to put in our own way. It is spiritual Stockholm syndrone - we have come to love our prison because it's easier to be given two hots and a cot every day than to go foraging for it in the real world, even if it means our freedom.

[Ratatoskr]

You don't seem to understand that "you" are not doing the thinking. "I" is the solar dragon that lives in the Manipura chakra and becomes adorned with fantasies of Mercury and crowns himself a king (and is a rather well known archetype along with his angry associates). Look at your Anahata chakra - participatory consciousness, witness and sufferer. That consciousness is far more apt for the current times and an Aeon to be attained.

I don't conceptualize anymore, I have sacrificed my twisted reflections for the participatory consciousness which reveals the Cosmos by knowing.

Ashvin, contrary to what you might think, I do recognize that at the core of our beings we are exactly the same and I greet this unchanging principle within you through the riot of planets of the solar system colliding in some nebulous projection of multiplicity. I displayed my lack of enthusiasm for luciferian doctrine purely because, since you are on this forum, you must realise that what you see on planet Earth is in fact a mental pollution. Whence might it be coming from ?

If we take this idea of participatory consciousness in a living and pratical way, then the mental pollution must be our own creation at any given time. Certainly we are nested within much higher spiritual forces who contribute to that oscillating rhythm of over-physicalized and over-spiritualized perspective on reality, but we have now evolved the logical thinking faculty which can harmonize the rhythm and spiritualize the mentally polluted appearances in a gradual, healthy way. When that logical thinking faculty is imbued with devotional feeling, it metamorphoses to Imagination. There is nothing which destines any given individual today to continue experiencing the world around them as deadened, fixed forms with little connection to our own souls. There is no reason to be trapped in some prison planet except for the obstacles we secretly desire to put in our own way. It is spiritual Stockholm syndrone - we have come to love our prison because it's easier to be given two hots and a cot every day than to go foraging for it in the real world, even if it means our freedom.

"When that logical thinking faculty is imbued with devotional feeling, it metamorphoses to Imagination."

In Alchemy, that stage is called Albedo. In Albedo, you ignite your heart to produce new consciousness (with the faculties you mention). Then it becomes even more inetresting when Vishuddhi grows horns on your head - just like Moses. After that, the Judgement comes and you are put in front of Ma'at to face what you have sung into existence with your hearts desire. Ever wondered why men cannot leave this plane without being judged first in the Underworld ? It's because of the psychic pollution. It's because our hearts harmonics became an entropic, unsustainable pattern which cannot embedd into harmonious infinity.

The problem with logical thinking is that it lifts the veil of Da'at - a gate between Sefirot and Qliphoth. That's why The Fall is called The Fall not The Elevation - it results in Yetzer Hara.

This is not some "prison planet". This is Your Planet. Your People.

[Cleric K]

Ashvin, you can get caitanya in every chakra that you manage to activate. The problem is that after The Fall consciousness is privy only to what Mercury (Vishuddhi) brings to it and only to your left hemisphere because Cain killed Abel. You have three minds - stomach, heart and head and two halves - right and left. You are also divided into bird and dragon mind that reconciliate in the heart and Vohu Manah (good intent) and Angra Mainyu (bad intent) to complete the picture. Only after you pierced Rudra granthi, your third eye can see the heavens and hells, your throat chakra can hear them and your heart chakra can feel them, in every other instance you are locked behind the mirror of ego and intuitions bubble up instead of being a conscious exchange between two aspects of nature.

I don't need your definition of thinking.

Ratatoskr, you're one of the few people who have spoken here, who actually recognize deeper structure to reality. I'm interested in the way you experience your own cognition as you write words like the above (and the next two posts). Clearly, you've gotten in touch with deeper strata of your being, thus you can see, for example, how most people today think within their gut minds (that is, thinking only about satisfying basic drives) and only contribute to the environmental mental fog.

How do you experience the mind which speaks forth the words you write in the posts? You say "I don't conceptualize anymore". I understand what you imply but nevertheless you have no choice but conceptualize if you are to speak about the dragon, the heart, the mind, Cain, Abel, etc. So I take it that the sense in which you use 'conceptualize' above is more targeted at abstract juggling with dry concepts. I'm sure you realize that someone else could be speaking the same words as you but you could say in yourself "This persons simply throws words around, he has memorized some stuff from books and youtube videos and now patches them together, repeating like a parrot."

With this I aim to bring more precision that it's not the conceptualization itself that is the wrong-doer (because you have no choice but do it too). It is only the endless patching together of conceptual husks, emptied from their higher substance without ever conceiving the need to go further, that leads nowhere. In the proper sense, conceptualization is simply putting higher experience (or as you call it - participatory consciousness) into concepts/images. This doesn't aim to reduce the richer deeper reality to empty mental husks, nor it claims that we can reconstruct higher reality by mechanically patching together concepts, but is only a process that spans a healthy gradient. As long as we remember that the mental husks should be taken as pointers towards the deeper consciousness from which the husks originally precipitated, then concepts are at their rightful place.
So I hope this brings some more precise context to the matter. We really need more and more lucid consciousness of precisely this process through which higher spiritual activity precipitates into mineral-like concepts.

Could you please describe the way you experience this precipitation of concepts. Would you describe the higher consciousness you experience as a first person spiritual activity of a higher order (including Cosmic) which as it weaves deeper and deeper through the layers of manifestation, practically decoheres, and at that level the higher being comes to know itself as a thinking ego?

Or would you say that even the mind that speaks everything you've written above, is still only an illusionary quasi-stable oscillation of mental phenomena which puts into concepts inexplicable and non-cognitive images(head), hearing (larynx) and feeling (heart) of some deeper reality (thus any kind of mind is always opaque to the deeper reality)?

[Papanca]

Personally i'm not interrested by the Steiner cult. I thought the forum would be more ecclectic and stopped visiting after noticing it's just Steiner spammed everywhere.

[Soul_of_Shu]

... if we are fortunate, our next incarnation will bring us back to a forum like this one and give us the opportunity to nourish the seeds within us once again.

Yeah well, get back to us after 7 years ... if you're still at it ... maybe you'll go back to the poker-playing phase ... maybe I'll go back to the forum phase.

What can one possibly say that would help the understanding of this transition? Probably nothing. Suffice to say that to hear true wisdom, requires much silence. There is no need of you, or I, or any other, to speak it out, for it abounds as the very essence of the Cosmos—for those who have 'ears' to 'hear'. And so I've little interest in substitutes. Mind you, this forum activity nevertheless was integral to the process, and played its vital part. But now there is no doubt whatsoever that it's a former phase that has served its critical function, and it's time for the next phase.

In any case, it may soon be a moot point. I've been in touch with Simon, and you all should know that it is mainly as an act of good will that he has kept this site on life support, while assuming the costs and tasks required to maintain it. However, how much longer this will be the case is certainly in significant doubt. So far, he seems willing to give it until the new year, and then revisit the situation. But realistically, unless someone else is willing to take over the site, and take on those required costs and tasks, including moderation roles, then it may well be deactivated.

[Federica]

... if we are fortunate, our next incarnation will bring us back to a forum like this one and give us the opportunity to nourish the seeds within us once again.

Yeah well, get back to us after 7 years ... if you're still at it ... maybe you'll go back to the poker-playing phase ... maybe I'll go back to the forum phase.

What can one possibly say that would help the understanding of this transition? Probably nothing. Suffice to say that to hear true wisdom, requires much silence. There is no need of you, or I, or any other, to speak it out, for it abounds as the very essence of the Cosmos—for those who have 'ears' to 'hear'. And so I've little interest in substitutes. Mind you, this forum activity nevertheless was integral to the process, and played its vital part. But now there is no doubt whatsoever that it's a former phase that has served its critical function, and it's time for the next phase.

In any case, it may soon be a moot point. I've been in touch with Simon, and you all should know that it is mainly as an act of good will that he has kept this site on life support, while assuming the costs and tasks required to maintain it. However, how much longer this will be the case is certainly in significant doubt. So far, he seems willing to give it until the new year, and then revisit the situation. But realistically, unless someone else is willing to take over the site, and take on those required costs and tasks, including moderation roles, then it may well be deactivated.

Thanks for the clarity, Shu, I think it’s completely understandable on your part, I’m glad the issue has emerged, or re-emerged! Did I already say I am finding value in this forum? : ) Of course I understand costs and tasks are involved, and unless I am the only one interested, I am ready to pay my share, if there is a simple way to do it, or even to participate in the start of a new one, if there is no simple way to do it and it turns out this forum has to be terminated. To be clear, though, I am not ready for the information and role asymmetry of becoming myself the sole moderator of this one forum.
I wish you the most valuable and enriching transition and next phases!

[AshvinP]

... if we are fortunate, our next incarnation will bring us back to a forum like this one and give us the opportunity to nourish the seeds within us once again.

Yeah well, get back to us after 7 years ... if you're still at it ... maybe you'll go back to the poker-playing phase ... maybe I'll go back to the forum phase.

What can one possibly say that would help the understanding of this transition? Probably nothing. Suffice to say that to hear true wisdom, requires much silence. There is no need of you, or I, or any other, to speak it out, for it abounds as the very essence of the Cosmos—for those who have 'ears' to 'hear'. And so I've little interest in substitutes. Mind you, this forum activity nevertheless was integral to the process, and played its vital part. But now there is no doubt whatsoever that it's a former phase that has served its critical function, and it's time for the next phase.

In any case, it may soon be a moot point. I've been in touch with Simon, and you all should know that it is mainly as an act of good will that he has kept this site on life support, while assuming the costs and tasks required to maintain it. However, how much longer this will be the case is certainly in significant doubt. So far, he seems willing to give it until the new year, and then revisit the situation. But realistically, unless someone else is willing to take over the site, and take on those required costs and tasks, including moderation roles, then it may well be deactivated.

This is why I asked about what you are now doing spiritually, regardless of the 'forum phase'. I use the forum, ideally, to only point others towards an inner experiential path that I am on, and in the process of doing that pointing, exercise my imaginative thinking which feeds back into my participatory consciousness during meditation and interactions with Nature and others. So that's what I am asking about, irrespective of the forum.

Do you take any initiative to try the numerous focused thinking meditations which have been shared here, like Federica has been doing? I know you gave up PoF and Steiner's lectures some time ago, so that's fine, we can leave all that aside. (although, that you feel creative thinking through the lofty spiritual ideas in speech or writing is not also spiritual activity of a high order, is a reflection of failing to internalize the PoF idea). If not meditations, then what are you doing to further metamorphose your inner thinking life and activity beyond what has already been attained? Or are you simply waiting for some more inspiration to come in a dream or while you are sitting around the house which then takes you to the next metamorphic stage?

As for the forum, I could probably take over the financial side if necessary. I may start posting some short articles here and there and see if we can draw a few more participants as well. I could mod as well, doubt I would want to mod anything beyond maintaing various sections. Either way, shouldn't be too big of a deal for one or two of us to take over.

[Lou Gold]

Hi all ... Apologies for being conspicuous by my absence. As the only mod, I do have to check in now and then, just in case there are any new topic approvals-- which is rare. Beyond that, this being a generally well-behaved place, the moderation role is minimal.

In the case of this member, having been very actively involved (including this forum's predecessor) for 7 years, it's simply a matter of having transitioned into a new phase, one in which the creativity requires much silence, and so is no longer compatible with this kind of 'vocal', thinking-out-loud activity. It has been this way for this lifetime so far, having gone through a few other metamorphic phases/stages, as per Ecclesiastes 3:1-8, which one can't resist, no more than the caterpillar can resist spinning its chrysalis ... as will be the eventual destiny for others here as well, when the time for a phase-transition arrives. Nonetheless, I will continue to serve the role of mod here, as long as it remains minimal--unless someone feels inclined to take over, either as mod and/or proprietor of the IP/domain (if so send a PM, and I'll approach Simon about how that might happen).

Meanwhile, kind regards

Hi Dana,

I really grok your transition and will be following your inspiring example myself. Yes, much silence is required.

Please accept my deep gratitude for our years of being here together and for the ways you have performed your various roles. I'm sure you've been a gift to many.

May your continuing journey be strewn with many blessings.

[Soul_of_Shu]

This is why I asked about what you are now doing spiritually, regardless of the 'forum phase'. I use the forum, ideally, to only point others towards an inner experiential path that I am on, and in the process of doing that pointing, exercise my imaginative thinking which feeds back into my participatory consciousness during meditation and interactions with Nature and others. So that's what I am asking about, irrespective of the forum.

Do you take any initiative to try the numerous focused thinking meditations which have been shared here, like Federica has been doing? I know you gave up PoF and Steiner's lectures some time ago, so that's fine, we can leave all that aside. (although, that you feel creative thinking through the lofty spiritual ideas in speech or writing is not also spiritual activity of a high order ... ) is a reflection of failing to internalize the PoF idea). If not meditations, then what are you doing to further metamorphose your inner thinking life and activity beyond what has already been attained? Or are you simply waiting for some more inspiration to come in a dream or while you are sitting around the house which then takes you to the next metamorphic stage?

As a writer of mostly spiritually inspired/infused poetry for a few decades, such distortions are laughable ...

Be that as it may, I'm no longer doing any writing (that too left behind by the transition), but now spend most waking hours meditating upon and creating visual art forms, literally working with light and colour, to revision the world as the Divine Dream that it truly is—which involves being out and immersed in the natural world by 5:30am, so as to catch the ideal light for this endeavour; and then often out again in the evening hours. When not tending to the garden, or playing the role of house chef, the rest of the day is spent doing editing and post-processing of a few select images, all this before spending a couple of hours with the spouse watching a movie, then usually in bed and asleep by 10—wherein, of course, one is inspired by dreamtime journeys. So no, there's currently little initiative for much else ... not to say that Cleric's meditations aren't worthy of effort for those who may find some resonance therein.

As for your offer to take on the cost and tasks of maintaining the site, I'll let Simon know.