The realm of the Demiurge

[Cleric K]

I dfinitely include myself and ground these conclusions on my own spiritual experience, but I can see the state of people around me, it confirms that all humans have minds programmed in the same dualistic way. And I believe it's not my human brain that is receptive to the nondual state, but it's some higher nonhuman levels of my soul structure that are receptive. But even if I'm wrong and it is indeed some newly-formed neural connections in my brain attaining to the nondual state, I still see no progress in my subconscious levels of mind still functioning and perceiving in the dualistic way. Somehow, the nondual state is completely "compartmentalized" from the subconscious dualistic structures and they do not conform to each other. And the real problem is, I experientially see how this dualistic part of mind does not give in, but relentlessly rejects and tries to take over and repress the nondual mode. It's an everyday struggle that significantly impedes my progress in the nondual mode. I can cope with it for the rest of the current life, but I do not see a point in continuing living in such handicapped mode forever.

And by saying further orchestration, I don't imply that you should walk on water or grow new limbs. It's simply about the possibility for our Earthly bodies becoming more and more attuned and receptive to the higher order spaces. At what point do we say "That's too much, I've reached the hard limit. Now all I can do is wait."? Is there such a limit? I agree that we can do only so much in a single lifetime but is there any reason not to keep going further and further until the last bodily breath?

Attaining the nondual state was a result of very unique circumstances of my current life. I did not get it from just reading right books. If I, as you say, "keep going" and return to the human form in the next life, there will be two issues. First, I will lose all my memories and will be genetically and culturally programmed into the dualistic state all over again. I am not sure if the circumstances of my next life will bring me to the "breakthrough" point again, and I don't want to take chances. I already found the Stone and there is no way I will ever let myself lose it again. The second issue is that, even if I somehow manage to attain to the nondual state in my next life, I will again get stuck in this completely misaligned and handicapped mix of nondual mode of higher cognition and dualistic mode of subconscious perception and functioning. I'm not saying that any spiritual evolution in such state is impossible, but it is a very unproductive and impeding state for spiritual evolution. Again, I'm going in circles, I said it all before somewhere else in this thread.

Notice that I never complained about human suffering and the "environment", I find them quite copiable, I only pointed to the lack of progress in human society and said that the belief in the progress of humans as a race is futile. It's not the life conditions and sufferings per se that you might think I'm trying to "escape". It's the inherent dualistic perception of the human mind that I cannot compromise with.

But as I said before, we can spend months intellectually debating this and never agree. The key is to experientially "find the Stone", experience the nondual state experientially while remaining in human body, and that's where we will experience this incompatibility of the dualistically programmed human mind and nondual state of consciousness. Until this is experientially realized, it will all be a matter of intellectual arguments and interpretations of quotes from the Bible in this or that way which will lead us nowhere. That's why I do not see any point of continuing this debate. I believe we exhausted all our arguments and are just going in circles repeating them over and over again.

'Keep going' means to keep discovering your higher being even while here in the body. If your brain wasn't receptive you wouldn't be able to form thoughts about your experiences and type them on the keyboard. It's a gradient that has to be musically attuned. It's a rhythmic interplay. Our lower organization reflects our spiritual movements and conversely, through the reflections we gain insight for ways to perfect our soul space, which presently most strongly curves the geodesics of our ordinary states of being.

I guess you have heard the principle in all esoteric teachings: the applied sincere effort is more important that the successful results. Why is that? It is very clear when we gain some deeper insight of the way our stream of becoming unfolds. Even if we have thousands of failed attempts in our daily life to overcome a habit, a crude sentiment and so on, these attempts are etched in our being and form kind of 'scientific data'. Here we deal with something that is tremendously valuable if we can accommodate it. Most of our Earthly life is not understood in depth while it happens. Just as in ordinary affairs, many things are grasped only when examined in retrospect. One vast part of our life beyond the threshold is precisely in going from a higher perspective through everything from our past life. And all our failed but sincere efforts are especially valuable. These are as valuable as experimental data is for the scientist.

Now from higher order perspective we don't simply go intellectually through these things in Freudian style but we contemplate the constellations of the soul organs, the planetary forces, the beings and so on. These are the true forces that have been at work even when we failed, yet in the bodily state we were conscious only of the crudest aliased form. We can see and understand how things could be different if the forces were otherwise balanced. These are the gems that we extract. Without efforts we simply have no experimental data to work with.

You are an engineer, there's barely need to explain these things to you. You know how all the bug reports, user feedbacks and so on, are invaluable for perfecting the next version of a product. Our next incarnation is not a random happening, where we lose all our abilities. In fact, everything in our next incarnation is carefully designed. This doesn't mean that it will go deterministically. There's always unpredictable factors because at each level there's creative freedom. Do you think that you arrived to your present state simply by chance, with no regard of your previous work? That no curvatures of destiny were designed such that you feel greater interest in books and a forum rather than in a pub, such that you can continue that work even further?

I'm not saying that we should desire to incarnate again. I only say that our primary goal should always be to further our development and together with it that of the whole humanity and the Cosmic context. Effectively this means to accommodate more of our higher being in the elemental sheaths. Whether we'll reincarnate or not should feel as a completely secondary matter. We should say "Who am I in my present Earthbound ego state to have pretentions whether I'll reincarnate or not? I'm doing the bill without the bartender. I don't even know how the perspective from which such a choice would be made looks like. It's not up to my Earthly ego to decide this. When my higher being encompasses the threads of evolution it will be in position to make a much more informed choice and it fact it is the only perspective which is in a position to make that choice. I can be sure in one thing - whatever the choice, it will be the best for my own worldline and the collective. Thus even if I reincarnate it will be because my higher perspective finds the highest meaning in this. Meaning that maybe I'm not in position encompass in my present limited state."

It is really important to understand the levels of priority of our ideal. "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."

[AshvinP]

But even if I'm wrong and it is indeed some newly-formed neural connections in my brain attaining to the nondual state, I still see no progress in my subconscious levels of mind still functioning and perceiving in the dualistic way. Somehow, the nondual state is completely "compartmentalized" from the subconscious dualistic structures and they do not conform to each other. And the real problem is, I experientially see how this dualistic part of mind does not give in, but relentlessly rejects and tries to take over and repress the nondual mode. It's an everyday struggle that significantly impedes my progress in the nondual mode. I can cope with it for the rest of the current life, but I do not see a point in continuing living in such handicapped mode forever.

Eugene,

Parallel to your discussion with Cleric, I was wondering if you could share with us what specifically you have done so far in your attempts to decompartmentalize the nondual state from the dual state. What is generally your go-to meditative method for the nondual state? You previously mentioned trying exercises from HTKHW, so which ones specifically have you worked with? Besides meditation, have you tried any other spiritual exercises which could potentially build the gradient from dual to nondual? I think we all agree here that reading a lot of books or scripture, esoteric or otherwise, is not going to cut it.

[Stranger]

'Keep going' means to keep discovering your higher being even while here in the body.

Sure, we agree on that.

Do you think that you arrived to your present state simply by chance, with no regard of your previous work? That no curvatures of destiny were designed such that you feel greater interest in books and a forum rather than in a pub, such that you can continue that work even further?

I have no doubts that it was not by chance and was a result of my work and help from other beings, both in this and previous lives. But my sense is that it happened with the help from beings beyond the dualistic realm.

I'm not saying that we should desire to incarnate again. I only say that our primary goal should always be to further our development and together with it that of the whole humanity and the Cosmic context. Effectively this means to accommodate more of our higher being in the elemental sheaths.

True, so as I said, the question is, after the breakthrough to the nondual state, how feasible and beneficial the human nature is for continuing the development in that state, especially considering the memory wipe at birth? Human mind is perfectly designed for dualistic state, but totally at odds with the nondual one as I said many times. Regarding the help to humanity, noone is abandoning humans, and according to the Buddhist tradition for example, beings from nondual realms are always helping the beings in samsara (and not only humans), some without incarnating, some through incarnating, but the latter, as I said before, is a very special "bodhisattva" mission requiring special arrangements and support from "the other side", as well as strength and maturity of the nondual state.

Thus even if I reincarnate it will be because my higher perspective finds the highest meaning in this. Meaning that maybe I'm not in position encompass in my present limited state."

That's true too, I may have a much broader perspective once I arrive at that reincarnation decision point. But in the current life I need to be prepared as much as I can so that I don't make a wrong and uninformed decision. According to your view, we should attempt to understand and know what is going on at higher levels even in this life (which I fully agree with). And so, what I expressed in this thread is what I learnt from both my inner experience and from research into the knowledge of both spiritual traditions and modern evidences regarding the higher levels of cognition related to the nondual mode.

It is really important to understand the levels of priority of our ideal. "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."

100% agree here

[Stranger]

Eugene,

Parallel to your discussion with Cleric, I was wondering if you could share with us what specifically you have done so far in your attempts to decompartmentalize the nondual state from the dual state. What is generally your go-to meditative method for the nondual state? You previously mentioned trying exercises from HTKHW, so which ones specifically have you worked with? Besides meditation, have you tried any other spiritual exercises which could potentially build the gradient from dual to nondual? I think we all agree here that reading a lot of books or scripture, esoteric or otherwise, is not going to cut it.

I was trying and hoping to "decompartmentalize" and integrate the nondual state with my entire human mind for years, but after a while I realized that it's just not happening and there is a deep incompatibility with it inherent in the subconscious structures of human mind. Meditative methods of nondual state are a whole different discussion, and I'm not advanced enough to teach that, there are people in the nondual community that can do it much better. The only thing I can say is that I just "switch there" into the nondual state-perception of reality when meditating and also often during the day, but then I inevitably get pulled out of it into the habitual dualistic mode in everyday activities. Also, my other main activity is blending the nondual state with my creative art and music activities, I try to play and paint "from" that state so to speak, not always successful though. In that way I exercise my higher cognition faculties (imaginative, intuitive, inspirational, esthetic, creative etc) in the active nondual mode as opposed to a passive meditative state. I tried some exercises that Cleric suggested and some from Klocek's book, but I found that my meditative and artistic activity essentially includes exercising and training the same faculties but in a more integrated way so to speak. But I do not see anything wrong with those exercises, I assume they can really help people who do them regularly.

[Federica]

I think one question you could ask yourself (meditate on), Eugene, is the real (profound) reason why you came back to the forum in disguise, a few weeks ago, and how it connects to this current third appearance.

[Stranger]

I think one question you could ask yourself (meditate on), Eugene, is the real (profound) reason why you came back to the forum in disguise, a few weeks ago, and how it connects to this current third appearance.

I'm not sure what you mean "in disguise". Where?

[mikekatz]

Eugene,

You’re killing it for me, my friend, and you’re very patient.

Until there is the actual experience of the non-dual, the Demiurge rules. While you are experiencing the non-dual, there is no dark cloud. The dark cloud is manufactured by the Demiurge. And when you return to the dual from the non-dual, you see the Demiurge for what it is. It’s still there, but its power is weakened.

You’ve fully answered the question I PM’ed you. Thank you.

[Federica]

I think one question you could ask yourself (meditate on), Eugene, is the real (profound) reason why you came back to the forum in disguise, a few weeks ago, and how it connects to this current third appearance.

I'm not sure what you mean "in disguise". Where?

I mean when you came disguised as a stranger.
But please don't reply to this, there's really no need (in case you were about to do it, which I am obviously not sure of).

[Stranger]

Eugene,

You’re killing it for me, my friend, and you’re very patient.

Until there is the actual experience of the non-dual, the Demiurge rules. While you are experiencing the non-dual, there is no dark cloud. The dark cloud is manufactured by the Demiurge. And when you return to the dual from the non-dual, you see the Demiurge for what it is. It’s still there, but its power is weakened.

You’ve fully answered the question I PM’ed you. Thank you.

You nailed it, Mike!

[Stranger]

I think one question you could ask yourself (meditate on), Eugene, is the real (profound) reason why you came back to the forum in disguise, a few weeks ago, and how it connects to this current third appearance.

OK, myself is not around right now but when he comes back I'll ask him