The realm of the Demiurge

[Federica]

This discussion about the progress of humanity and overall reasons to reincarnate into humans hopefully will be useful for other people

It surely will, and already is.

Overall, to summarize, this thread was about the structure of dualistic domain governed by discarnate beings remaining in the dualistic state (which we collectively label as “Demiurge”) and the way to liberate ourselves from the realm of duality and reach to the natural state of Oneness. The discussion showed the astounding degree of deception and the structure of intellectually sophisticated lies that the dualistic realm is built upon. This is not surprising because the dualistic perception of reality is a big lie in the first place, so a lie can only produce more lies.

Understandably you are digging your heels now, but as you say, everyone will decide for themselves what the discussion showed. Don't forget your promise, before you go:

PS: I'll answer the Cleric's questions tomorrow

[AshvinP]

That's right, I have no interest in the "hows" of the dualistic state of being, be it a state of consciousness or of material structures. But I am interested in the "hows" of the nondual state and have indeed been experientially studying exactly that.

Yes, that is clear you have no interest.

But you simultaenously presuppose you already know the 'hows' in order to derive your theories which you then post on this forum. That is why I mentioned the etheric-astral-ego depth structure before. You have a dim intuition of this structure, but no interest in fleshing out that inuition by pursuing its lawful organization. So it remains an imponderable unknown for you. Then, for ex., you confront scripture and assume anything referring to the bodily organism must be speaking of what is already ponderable and known to you, i.e. the dense physical body. You further assume that it must be speaking of modern materialistic theories of genetics, which are also familiar to you. You can't imagine that the scripture is addressing the whole human organism with its unseen depth structure, because you have no interest in making that depth structure more known. Then you feel like it is simply confirming the Demiurgic theories you already derived from other modern sources, which declare the dualistic consciousness is programmed into our genes and it has been that way for thousands of years without any sign of progress. It's a complete circle of using only what is familiar, known, and perceptible to you and projecting it onto the ancient consciousness which, in contrast, had an innate wisdom of the 'hows', or in the case of the ancient initiates who were inspired to impress the holy scriptures across all cultures, a much more conscious knowledge.

All of this would be revealed to you, along with the way this depth structure is currently steering all your opinions and theories, if you simply stopped assuming all Earthly knowledge already exists within your current mind-container. You would stop making that assumption if you took even the first steps to gradually differentiate your cognitive force from the passion-fueled intellectual templates you are currently merged with. But that requires a spirit of humility and willing sacrifice for Cosmic aims. And your resposne to Cleric once again confirms your feeling that all necessary sacrifices have already been made. You feel the passion-fueled intellect has already been crucified and it is not you who is formulating these Demiurgic conspiracy theories, but the Christ within you. How convenient - wherever you happen to be at any given moment on Earth is also exactly the final telos of where you need to be on Earth. The undeniable fact that there still exists a major split in the consciousness of your being is then projected into 'subconscious layers' and 'genes' ruled by the external demonic entities, which you must passively submit and resign to until after death, when you will magically reconcile the split without any effort (except arguing with the Demiurge for a while). That is the overall summary of what has happened here.

[Cleric K]

Definitely #2
...
Yes, in a way, the nondual state is a state of continuous prayer of openness and connectedness to the Cosmic scale of the Divine. But the key is that in the nondual state all the "geometry of our sense of being" and "intuition of self" is already sacrificed, it is "crucified" on the Cross of the nondual state, and if it is not yet sacrificed then itis not yet a nondual state. Nevertheless, it continues a life of its own in our subconscious layers, just like St. Paul said

So basically #2 turns into #1 Now we believe that we have sacrificed everything. But there's one last thing - the intuition of that nondual state. It is still a (dynamic) state, isn't it? It's a form of spiritual existence. No matter how out of this world. It's the state with (non-verbalized!) intuition which has the meaning "There, I have sacrificed everything, there's nothing left to be sacrificed. I'm pure formlessness, pure potential." What #2 implied was that even this nondual state is a transient form of nondual intuition. The fact that we believe that there's nothing left to sacrifice only says "I'm above anything that can be sacrificed. I AM the above."

And this was the whole point of what I wrote - that even this state can be sacrificed, which would show us the true process of evolution and the fact that there's never a point where we say (not verbally of course) "There, everything that can be sacrificed has been sacrificed. Now I look upon reality from the periphery, nothing left above me, and it's all a matter of exploring the potential."

OK, Eugene, I don't insist on perpetuating this discussion either. But it is really an interesting research for me. It's still an enigma for me whether you feel with a tiny corner of your being what the above means but then quickly dismiss it by thinking "No, no, that can't be it" or you feel so secure at your position where you feel that everything that can be sacrificed is already sacrificed, that you can't even grasp what we're talking about but see it only as floating dual thoughts.

[Cleric K]

Overall, to summarize, this thread was about the structure of dualistic domain governed by discarnate beings remaining in the dualistic state (which we collectively label as “Demiurge”) and the way to liberate ourselves from the realm of duality and reach to the natural state of Oneness. The discussion showed the astounding degree of deception and the structure of intellectually sophisticated lies that the dualistic realm is built upon. This is not surprising because the dualistic perception of reality is a big lie in the first place, so a lie can only produce more lies.

The summary amounts to the fact that people are staying in the cave, divining the shadows on the walls, listening to stories from pathological glimpses of the light, patching up a philosophy and making plans for their future life outside the cave.

This was counterbalanced with the approach that starts from our cave situation and gradually works its way outwards, learning the laws of the inner and the outer.

Then the only reason the first camp is aggravated with the second, is because the research results don’t exactly fit their plans for the life outside the cave.

I don’t know what more explicit analogy to make. It’s like the first camp wants to have a comfortable home and has come upon with a theory patched up of fragments collected from the most various sources, which tells them then all they need to do is go to bed and in the morning the house will wait for them fully constructed.

The second camp does a little honest research and says “The facts don’t support this. It seems we’ll have to put some effort into this, we’ll have to gather the bricks, the sand, the cement and start building the house floor by floor.”

To this the first camp exclaims “You’re so deluded! The horny one has managed to convince you that you have to actually do something to build your future, while he simply wants to keep you as a slave. You’re working for him! Our house is already build and waiting for us. We simply can't see it because of the today's adverse conditions. But we'll surely check in tomorrow after a good sleep.”

By using common sense it is quite clear who’s deluded in this simple practical case. Yet in spiritual life things are turned on their heads. Suddenly the most absurd things, that are nowhere to be found in practical life, become the highest wisdom, while those who strive to understand, to work, are deluded servants of evil. One becomes a servant of evil only because by following the logic of reality, they have suggested that some effort – which takes time – has to be put in if we want to see results.

The most important thing in this quite literal analogy is that those who expect the house to be built by itself, actively resist any deeper understanding of reality, similarly to the way flat earthers refuse to connect the dots. It is obvious why this is the case – because the more consistent the picture of reality becomes, the more the naive fantasy of the magically self-built house is shattered.

And if it is not clear already, no one is saying that humans should keep reincarnating infinitely. Quite the contrary – our most earnest goal is human freedom and realization of our Divine potential. But through honest and unprejudiced effort we see that it is not enough to simply ‘make a wish’ that we would no longer incarnate, just as it is not enough to go to sleep and wish the house will be built on the next day. In fact, it is precisely by ignoring the work that has to be done, that we prolong our stay in the underlands. With mind wiped, every day we keep wishing that it will be the last, not remembering the lesson from the previous. That house is our collective body of humanity and the whole stellar context.

[Stranger]

OK, Eugene, I don't insist on perpetuating this discussion either. But it is really an interesting research for me. It's still an enigma for me whether you feel with a tiny corner of your being what the above means but then quickly dismiss it by thinking "No, no, that can't be it" or you feel so secure at your position where you feel that everything that can be sacrificed is already sacrificed, that you can't even grasp what we're talking about but see it only as floating dual thoughts.

Cleric, I answered it in my other post, see below. The key turning point is to sacrifice all the dualistic structure and content. But that is not all there is to sacrifice. so, once the dualistic content is sacrificed, the new path begins where, even withing the nondual state, the newer structures grow and the outdated ones are sacrificed to give space for the new ones, and evolution towards the integration with the Cosmic scale of the Oneness continues.

Recovering from dualistic delusion in no way stops or impedes our evolution as individuated spiritual activities of the Source, it actually catalyzes it in new ways because it liberates it from handicapped state of dualistic delusion. There is still a huge realm of dynamic polarities and lawful structures, forms and ideas, hierarchical levels of cognition to explore, develop and know. It is just that this "realm" (which is a state or mode of thinking) is free from the delusion of duality. (In the Buddhist tradition this mode is called "enlightened activity")

[Stranger]

By using common sense it is quite clear who’s deluded in this simple practical case.

What you are saying is basically that all masters of authentic traditions who warned us about the hierarchy of the discarnate rulers of the Earth and human reincarnation trap were deluded, starting from Christ and apostles (see all the quotes from Gospels that I gave), Gnostics, Buddhist and Hinduist masters. OK, well, that's quite a claim... I still prefer to rather trust them and not the recently formed "esoteric" Freemason-Rosicrucian-Anthrosophic sects where some good practices and insights are cleverly mixed with sophisticated lies of the dualistic system of beliefs. Of course, if it would be all lies then it would be easy for people to find it out. But the way they do it is they take the key message "return back to our domain (and get your memories wiped)" wrapped with all possible attractive and truth-sounding ideas and practices "yes, we accept the mission of Christ, and Eastern traditions too, and nonduality, and meditative practices, and higher cognition development, and humanistic ideas and beliefs in the progress of humanity, and whatever you want. Just come back under our rule". But nothing will happen in the human domain until it is under the rule of these rulers, it will all continue to be "the wheel of samsara" until the divine intervention put this rule to an end, or when all souls will leave the dualistic/samsaric domains (as Buddhists hope to happen). Reincarnating in dualistically structured and ruled systems can only perpetuates these systems. This is what the book of Revelation is all about.

Then a war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But the dragon was not strong enough, and no longer was any place found in heaven for him and his angels. 9And the great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. ... Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 8And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast. ... But fire came down from heaven and consumed them. 10And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown.

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. ... And the One seated on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.”
Revelation

This is it, we already repeated all these arguments hundred times, it's time to close and let other people decide for themselves.

[Cleric K]

Cleric, I answered it in my other post, see below. The key turning point is to sacrifice all the dualistic structure and content. But that is not all there is to sacrifice. so, once the dualistic content is sacrificed, the new path begins where, even withing the nondual state, the newer structures grow and the outdated ones are sacrificed to give space for the new ones, and evolution towards the integration with the Cosmic scale of the Oneness continues.

That's fine. Then the question remains why we decide to place an arbitrary boundary between this and the other world? We feel satisfied that we have sacrificed everything [dual] there is to sacrifice while in a body but the other forms of higher, nondual sacrifices we leave for the other world. In other words, in our Earthly life our job is done by sacrificing all the way up to the threshold but leaving one last sacrifice that we reserve for the moment of death. This delayed sacrifice keeps the worlds apart.

The impulse of Christ within the core of our being is that which allows us make even that sacrifice while still in a body. Then the worlds form a continuum not only conceptually but as lived reality. The kingdom of the Demiurge is no longer a 'place' but the fortification within each one of us, that postpones that sacrifice for the moment of death and meanwhile allows the mischief to happen below it. That sacrifice can only be accomplished through Love. Wisdom is needed to know how to work but to find the Divine that is always revealing anew through us and allow it to be the Inspirer of our life, can only be accomplished through the Love for God. Obviously, this Love has to so strong, that even if we find out that there's much work to be done and we may have to reincarnate many more times, we'll accept that creative responsibility with joy.

And the wiping of memory is the result only of the fact that in each incarnation we live below the level of that last sacrifice. Thus our waking consciousnesses in different incarnations have very little points of contact - they seem as foreign as another man is for us today. But when we cross the threshold while in the body, then we already live at a level of our being whose consciousness overarches different incarnations. Thus we see from yet another angle that we shouldn't fear being reincarnated but we should work such that we know more of our higher being whose consciousness can remain continuous through incarnations. In other words, when we resist that final sacrifice we ensure that our incarnate selves remain quite disconnected. The connection can only be made from within the physical world, from which the overarching higher consciousness blossoms.

The Second Coming won't be of a Christ in body that will come to drive out the money changers off the Earth. The Christ has already done what he had to do on Earth. The question is whether we'll allow the Christ to come into each one of us, so that we can drive out the money changers from our soul. Everything that the Christ has done on Earth is a symbol for what each one of us has to do. We only need to understand that the Earth is our body, the temple of the Spirit, then many secrets become comprehensible. The Christ that has to come as the Sun-core of our being, from whence the Divine Life flows and animates the body-Earth. Those who wait for the Christ to come in the flesh for the second time, simply don't understand reality. They still think that someone has to come and fix the world externally (like people today expect politicians to fix the world). It never crosses their mind that we are the world and the Christ indeed will come to fix the world but by working as the spiritual force of Love that flows through our "I", that inspires every thought, feeling and action of our "I".

Think about it: if you knew that through our sustained effort we work towards the continuity of consciousness across incarnations (which is the only logical thing in nonduality) and that the world can only be fixed from within each one of us, would that change the way you look upon the evolution of our Solar context? Or you would still prefer to stay in orbit let others fix the mess?

[Stranger]

Think about it: if you knew that through our sustained effort we work towards the continuity of consciousness across incarnations (which is the only logical thing in nonduality) and that the world can only be fixed from within each one of us, would that change the way you look upon the evolution of our Solar context? Or you would still prefer to stay in orbit let others fix the mess?

We discussed the same thing hundred times already, I'm really tired, Cleric.

- The change happening within us al all true, I said it many times. But when we incarnate in samsaric/dualistic realms, the is a natural limit to the changes set by the lower-level lawful structures of these domains controlled by dualistic higher-order beings ("Demiurge"), this is what St. Paul was writing about and all other saints/masters witnessed when they attempted to accomplish this change practically. Intellectually we can argue both ways, but when we start to try it practically we will experience this limit. I wrote about it many times. The full transformation of the whole structure of organism is not possible in these domains as long as they are ruled by the dualistic beings controlling its lawful structures.

- "The kingdom of the Demiurge" has to be dismantled both esoterically (within each individual soul) and exoterically. What scriptures say about the spiritual war has both esoteric and exoteric meanings, and both are valid. Until the exoteric rule of the dualistic hierarchy ends, the newly awakened souls will be leaving the human domain as it is unfit for their following evolution.

- There is some continuity in dualistic reincarnations, but not the continuity in a full sense because of the memory wipe, so the evolution process through reincarnations into the memory-wiped forms is very inefficient, slow and hindering. We can easily see it by observing how ridiculously small percentage of humans have been able to attain to the nondual state during their human life.

- I will be always participating in fixing the mess in the dualistic domains, but as I said, it can be done with or without incarnating, and doing it with incarnating is a special "spiritual marine war-zone" operation that requires special arrangements, training and support and it is not intended for immature souls newly released from samsara. Usually, according to the Buddhist tradition, bodhisattvas and buddhas spend most of their path in nondual domains without continuously and cyclically returning to samsara, and go for the "marine missions" to samsara only once in a while. It's not all about fixing samsara, there is a lot of constructive work and evolution to be done in nondual realms as well that should not be put on hold by the samsaric issues.

- In summary, for the souls that attained to the nondual state the continuous cycle of incarnating into samsaric life forms ends, but they may return once in a while for special bodhisattva missions.

[Cleric K]

...

OK, Eugene, we're giving it a rest... Thank you for your participation!

[Stranger]

And thanks to all who participated