Meditation exercise on "separate me"

[Stranger]

OK, I'm not sure what your conclusion is. Saying that, for example, the Cherubim can exist in dual mode doesn't make any sense because these beings are the very fabric of our Cosmic context, they are the 'carrier wave' onto which our Solar existence is modulated. This in itself shows how far removed the spiritual experience of these lofty beings is, compared to our ensouled one. To imagine that these beings can operate in 'dual' mode is simply projecting our own human-bound sense of self to those Divine Beings. Not only that these beings can't operate in a personal (dual) mode but their whole existence is one of sacrifice, they give up their Cosmic Will 'substance' so that it can be taken up and individuated into lesser beings through the prism of which the Divine Spirit can know itself. We're entering here into details of deep Initiatic science so what is said is obviously very incomplete. But the point is only to show that for these highest beings it makes no sense to speak of dual modes.

So with this in mind, would that hierarchy of Beings coincide with your understanding of the true nondual spiritual hierarchy?

Yes, I said exactly that, the nondual higher order beings, which we call here Cherubim, indeed exist in the nondual mode of consciousness. There are also a hierarchy of other discarnate beings that exist in the dualistic mode but masquerade themselves as "the angels of light" as St. John said. When we connect to Cherubims, their message to us will be exactly the message that Christ told us "deny your self and be One with the Father as we are One", in other words, abandon your ego-consciousness mode and experience the reality of the nondual Divine Essense as we all do, and then continue your living-being evolution in the nondual mode of consciousness coherent with the nondual Divine Essense along our lawful curvatures. But if we connect to the beings presenting themselves as the "angels of light" but telling us that we should continue to evolve in the ego-consciousness mode, then we are connecting with a dualistic hierarchy. Hence: "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1)

So, it is not sufficient to believe and to claim that we are connecting with the higher-order hierarchies. There question is: which one and how do we know if we are connecting with the right one?

Humanity was under the influence of the dualistic hierarchies for a very long time so they became controlling the humanity in many ways, that is why Jesus said ""I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming, and he has no claim on Me" (John 14:30)". We became so karmically intermingled with them that it is not seay and requires significant spiritual struggle to liberate our souls from the controls of their hierarchy

"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places." (Ephesians 6:1)

You guys remain blind to the reality of these "cosmic powers in the heavenly places" and naively believe that any heavenly higher-order hierarchy must by default be of the Divine origin. The difficulty to figure out who they are is that they do not look "evil" at all, they indeed look and act like "angels of light", they are leading us along the evolutionary path, but only dualistic path of ego-consciousness, and always try to convince us that this is indeed a path of progressive evolution and there is no other evolutionary path that we can possibly travel. And they actually do not have any evil intentions, they themselves sincerely believe that their dualistic ego-consciousness path is a valid and right evolutionary path. But they indeed start acting in evil ways when we start trying to question the validity of their path and liberate ourselves from their rule and influence, because they sincerely believe that the nondual path is a wrong evolutionary path. This may seem to you as intellectual schemes, but it is based on my knowledge of the spiritual traditions of the past, the NDE experiences, and my own inner experience of connecting to the beings of both hierarchies.

In short, we both agree that there are higher-order hierarchies, which is already a stretch and may sound like a "conspiracy theory" for any secular people (like Lorenzo for example). But when I point you to the evidences from the Scriptures and NDE accounts of the reality of two hierarchies, you call it "conspiracy theory". Of course, you can continue in this denial mode, it is your choice, just like it is a choice of people with secular views not to believe in any spiritual hierarchies at all.

[lorenzop]

I hear that you have a high sensitivity to words, which makes it difficult for you to go beyond the unpleasant impression you feel and really focus on what the sentence points to. This can depend on many factors, past experiences, particular feelings etc. I would say that it's a good thing that you noticed that, it's the first step to see that much of the unpleasant feeling you experience is mixed up with your personal history, rather than with supposedly objective meanings present in the words themselves. Can you see that the words by themselves are more neutral than it looked at first reading?

Now you are over the top condescending but I'm a human being and fine I'll just roll with it . . . but no, I find Ashwin's words anything but neutral, regardless of the content of his words, he is saying that no matter who you are or what path you take, you will see things the same way he does.
Re this thread - it's devolved into a battle of semantics, and way too deep in speculative esoteria for my tastes.

[Stranger]

PS: if we dive into the Biblical mythology, there is a very-high-order spiritual being called Lucifer (Morning Star) who used to be a Seraphim, but "fell from heavens". His fall was exactly the choice to exist in a mode of consciousness as a "self" separate from the Divine Oneness in which the rest of the Seraphims and other Angels remained. According to the myth, he convinced 1/3 of other Angels to go with him into the dualistic mode, so you can guess that his arguments were quite convincing. It is naive to believe that Lucifer is kind of fierce-evil-looking "Satan" with horns and fire from his mouth. He actually remains the "angel of light", just disconnected from the Divine Oneness and pursuing his own project of building the domain of dualistic existence in the ego-consciousness mode sincerely believing that this is the right thing to do.

[Cleric K]

Well, so basically we reach the same point we reach every time. Yes, it is said, the higher beings exist, they constitute the hierarchical matrix of reality (the green line), out of which our ensouled state is aliased, yet we can know nothing reliable from our Earthly perspective. The most we can do is bask in the intuition of Oneness and expect to find our true relations with these beings only after death.

It has been said many times that it is fully possible to gain consciousness of our depth structure while on Earth (this is the only sensible thing in a nondualistic reality). Higher development consists in gaining clear consciousness precisely of these nondual beings of which our perspective is a constructive interference. This means to become conscious of the ways our spirit, soul and bodily sheaths are weaved of the living Beings of the nondual hierarchy. This demands precisely the denial you speak of because the more we understand how we’re weaved of the living Cosmos, the less we can support the illusion that our destiny can follow its own private worldline independent of the Cosmic context of which it is weaved.

So, it is not sufficient to believe and to claim that we are connecting with the higher-order hierarchies. There question is: which one and how do we know if we are connecting with the right one?

By saying this you imply that we relate with these beings as some floating orbs in spiritual space and we scratch our heads and wonder whether they are the true orbs or the false ones. But such an understanding completely dismisses the true nature of the nondual hierarchy. It is not a pyramid of orbs but the very contextual beingness of your own perspective. Thus to know these beings it is not about leaving the body and floating to meet the Cherubim. It is about coming to know what in your present being is ‘made of’ the Cherubim.

To put that very simplistically, imagine that one rank of beings constitute the phenomenological essence of sound, others of light and so on. It makes no sense to imagine that we can go out in spiritual space and meet the 'sound orb'. This completely externalizes the whole matter (although this is still admissible in Imagination, as long as it is clearly understood that we're dealing only with symbols). If all the sound-ness of the Cosmos is now in front of us in the sound orb, then what is the sound essence within our soul? You see, we need completely different attitude when we try to conceive of these beings.

If you understand the above it will be clear that true development leads us to consciousness of how we are weaved out of the interference of these beings. This interference is not something that we perceive in front of us, like some spiritual waves. It is our own being that becomes delaminated. Our ideas, desires, will, senses and so on, this is the 'substance' of the Beings. It’s our job to understand how these Beings interfere constructively within our experiential perspective such that our spirit maintains continuity of consciousness and thus has a sense of individual be-ing.

To know reality in this way we must go much further than simply celebrating our oneness with the nondual essence. Our being must be ripped apart, so to speak. We have to be crucified on the Cross of the Cosmos. Then we understand where our heart comes from, where the liver comes from, where this idea comes from, where that desire comes from. All of these things are spread out as Cosmic Beings and our microcosmic perspective is only a point of constructive interference within all this.

The question is, in case this is understood and acknowledged, what prevents us from furthering the nondual experience such that we begin to gain consciousness of this Cosmic interference?

[Stranger]

Well, so basically we reach the same point we reach every time. Yes, it is said, the higher beings exist, they constitute the hierarchical matrix of reality (the green line), out of which our ensouled state is aliased, yet we can know nothing reliable from our Earthly perspective. The most we can do is bask in the intuition of Oneness and expect to find our true relations with these beings only after death.

WOW, where did I say that? Cleric, you are a master of misinterpreting.
We should and CAN connect to these beings, but we should also be aware (by experientially knowing those beings) that there are two hierarchies, and develop and exercise spiritual discernment when dealing with them.

By saying this you imply that we relate with these beings as some floating orbs in spiritual space and we scratch our heads and wonder whether they are the true orbs or the false ones. But such an understanding completely dismisses the true nature of the nondual hierarchy. It is not a pyramid of orbs but the very contextual beingness of your own perspective. Thus to know these beings it is not about leaving the body and floating to meet the Cherubim. It is about coming to know what in your present being is ‘made of’ the Cherubim.

Where did I say anything about "orbs". It's all in your fantasy.

The question is, in case this is understood and acknowledged, what prevents us from furthering the nondual experience such that we begin to gain consciousness of this Cosmic interference?

Cleric, you asked this questions hundred times, and hundred times I gave you the answer "yes". The question is: to which hierarchy we connect? If we would truly connect with the nondual hierarchy, there is no way they would communicate to us a meaning and curvature to develop along the ego-consciousness path. You totally dismissed my point that there are two hierarchies, which you deny to acknowledge. I added some text to the bottom of my previous post, so you may want to read it.

[Cleric K]

Well, so basically we reach the same point we reach every time. Yes, it is said, the higher beings exist, they constitute the hierarchical matrix of reality (the green line), out of which our ensouled state is aliased, yet we can know nothing reliable from our Earthly perspective. The most we can do is bask in the intuition of Oneness and expect to find our true relations with these beings only after death.

WOW, where did I say that? Cleric, you are a master of misinterpreting.
We should and CAN connect to these beings, but we should also be aware (by experientially knowing those beings) that there are two hierarchies, and develop and exercise spiritual discernment when dealing with them.

By saying this you imply that we relate with these beings as some floating orbs in spiritual space and we scratch our heads and wonder whether they are the true orbs or the false ones. But such an understanding completely dismisses the true nature of the nondual hierarchy. It is not a pyramid of orbs but the very contextual beingness of your own perspective. Thus to know these beings it is not about leaving the body and floating to meet the Cherubim. It is about coming to know what in your present being is ‘made of’ the Cherubim.

Where did I say anything about "orbs". It's all in your fantasy.

The question is, in case this is understood and acknowledged, what prevents us from furthering the nondual experience such that we begin to gain consciousness of this Cosmic interference?

Cleric, you asked this questions hundred times, and hundred times I gave you the answer "yes". The question is: to which hierarchy we connect? If we would truly connect with the nondual hierarchy, there is no way they would communicate to us a meaning and curvature to develop along the ego-consciousness path. You totally dismissed my point that there are two hierarchies, which you deny to acknowledge. I added some text to the bottom of my previous post, so you may want to read it.

I fully acknowledge the dark beings, I was just focusing on the nondual hierarchy.

In that case, granted that it is understood that these beings are not orbs but the very essence of the Cosmos and our being - we exist within these beings as waves are modulated onto carrier waves so to speak - then how can we go further than simply acknowledging our oneness with them. How do we gain consciousness of the curvature of these beings, which constitutes the telos of our collective Solar evolution?

[lorenzop]

Speaking for myself - I think the distinction is this: For example when we suggest to a Materialist that reality is composed of and structured in consciousness, they immediately think and assume that therefore everything is conscious - and so how ridiculous Idealism must be.
I see the Philosophy being presented here as making this same 'error\assumption' - thinking that because Idealism states all things are made of and structured in consciousness, all things must be conscious.
Seeing of a tree - the assumption being the tree must be conscious, and each leaf, a corresponding heirarchy of 'treeness consciousness', 'leafness consciousness', etc.
I don't make that leap -> because everything is structured in consciousness, so therefore all things are conscious, all things are beings, and all things part of a heirarchy of beings.

[Stranger]

I fully acknowledge the dark beings, I was just focusing on the nondual hierarchy.

In that case, granted that it is understood that these beings are not orbs but the very essence of the Cosmos and our being - we exist within these beings as waves are modulated onto carrier waves so to speak - then how can we go further than simply acknowledging our oneness with them. How do we gain consciousness of the curvature of these beings, which constitutes the telos of our collective Solar evolution?

Before we approach this question, let's first sort out this:

So, here is how we already went through this circle hundred times. You ask me if it is possible to "furthering the nondual experience such that we begin to gain consciousness of this Cosmic interference", and I answer "yes". Then Ashvin comes and says that actually this "nondual" experience is in continuing within the living ego-consciousness mode, which is actually dualistic, to which I say "no". And then the cycle goes all over again.

So, again, nothing "prevents us from furthering the nondual experience such that we begin to gain consciousness of this Cosmic interference" as long as we remain in the nondual experience of Oneness, which is incompatible with the ego-consciousness mode, because in the nondual mode “I am crucified with Christ, but I live; yet not I anymore, but Christ lives in me" Galatians 2:20"

Now, to your question (assuming that we are indeed in the nondual mode and not in the ego-consciousness mode anymore): "how can we go further than simply acknowledging our oneness with them". This is not simply "acknowledging", if they and we are both in the nondual state of experientially realizing the Oneness with the Divine Essense, then we are sharing with them the same living experiential state of consciousness, we are already in a shared mode and therefore part of their hierarchy and experientially living in their nondual domains. And then, by living-thinking and further developing our higher-cognition spiritual bodies in those domains we become open and sensitive to know/experience all their meanings and curvatures.

But I think we are jumping too much ahead here. Before we even consider these questions, we ourselves need to be already in the nondual mode. But if we perceive the world as if we are a "separate subjective experiencer - self" experiencing the "objects" or communication with other "selves - subjective experiencers" with their separate subjectivities, then we still are in the ego-consciousness and dualistic mode. So, the first thing to do for us is to figure out how to transcend this mode into the nondual one. Only then when we can truly communicate with the nondual beings through sharing with them the same experiences of nondual states and meanings. In short, the only way to connect and integrate with nondual hierarchies is to be in the nondual mode of consciousness shared with them.

[Stranger]

I see the Philosophy being presented here as making this same 'error\assumption' - thinking that because Idealism states all things are made of and structured in consciousness, all things must be conscious.
Seeing of a tree - the assumption being the tree must be conscious, and each leaf, a corresponding heirarchy of 'treeness consciousness', 'leafness consciousness', etc.
I don't make that leap -> because everything is structured in consciousness, so therefore all things are conscious, all things are beings, and all things part of a heirarchy of beings.

Some people may make such assumption, but not in our case. We only say that there are ideas of "leafness" or "flowerness" existing within the consciousness of hierarchical beings that precipitate into our specific sense perceptions of "leaves" or "flowers". Itis still possible that some of those structures have their own internal conscious experiences, for example, BK suggests that any metabolic structures always have their inner conscious experiences.

[AshvinP]

Speaking for myself - I think the distinction is this: For example when we suggest to a Materialist that reality is composed of and structured in consciousness, they immediately think and assume that therefore everything is conscious - and so how ridiculous Idealism must be.
I see the Philosophy being presented here as making this same 'error\assumption' - thinking that because Idealism states all things are made of and structured in consciousness, all things must be conscious.
Seeing of a tree - the assumption being the tree must be conscious, and each leaf, a corresponding heirarchy of 'treeness consciousness', 'leafness consciousness', etc.
I don't make that leap -> because everything is structured in consciousness, so therefore all things are conscious, all things are beings, and all things part of a heirarchy of beings.

There is no need to assume every single perception we have exists as we perceive it, in its atomized state, and is a locus of consciousness. In fact, any sound idealism leads to the conclusion that our normal perceptions are fragmented and fixed in space, but symbolize ideal activity which unfolds in time. We have used many examples of this before - like the smile on a person's face symbolizes inner emotional activity which can hardly be mapped to the physical structure of the smile in any simple 1:1 way. The smile is the outer physiognomy of inner activity which finds its root in a locus of consciousness which is is no way confined to the perceptual structure of 'smile'.

The other question is, if we are not dealing with underlying ideal activity within perceptual appearances, then what could we possibly be dealing with? Is it abstract entities or forces we can't even imagine, in principle? Is it a permanent mystery?