A Polar Comparison of the Buddha and the Christ

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AshvinP
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Re: A Polar Comparison of the Buddha and the Christ

Post by AshvinP »

Lou Gold wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 9:09 pm I also believe that it was an error to portray Christianity and Buddhism as a polarity. Perhaps a better title could be, "Buddhism and Christianity: A View of Balance." In such a formulation, Buddha and Christ would BOTH be seen as sitting at the fulcrum in their times AND continuing to evolve with the times. The historical Jesus enacted/performed the story that raised the fulcrum higher, offering redemption to all independent of spiritual practice. Karma, Bhakti, Jnana or whatever, the portal has been opened for many more to ascend and many do at many levels, which is just how evolution works.

The polarity of the scales is a a good focus if one wants to see the differences and separations at a given time but focussing on the fulcrum will offer a better view of the communion and connection that transcends time. It's an understanding: Which view does one want to stand under now in guiding her/his own personal process? Choice is God-given.

Lou,

Instead of going into a long-winded reply with a bunch of 'boring' details here, let me ask a question to illustrate my overall point - if we were to start with the 'view of balance' or 'communion and connection that transcends time', with the formulation of both sitting at the fulcrum AND continuing to evolve with the times, what is the next step for deeper understanding of these individualities-teachings and their critical roles in our spiritual evolution?
"A secret law contrives,
To give time symmetry:
There is, within our lives,
An exact mystery."
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Lou Gold
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Re: A Polar Comparison of the Buddha and the Christ

Post by Lou Gold »

AshvinP wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 9:17 pm
Lou Gold wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 9:09 pm I also believe that it was an error to portray Christianity and Buddhism as a polarity. Perhaps a better title could be, "Buddhism and Christianity: A View of Balance." In such a formulation, Buddha and Christ would BOTH be seen as sitting at the fulcrum in their times AND continuing to evolve with the times. The historical Jesus enacted/performed the story that raised the fulcrum higher, offering redemption to all independent of spiritual practice. Karma, Bhakti, Jnana or whatever, the portal has been opened for many more to ascend and many do at many levels, which is just how evolution works.

The polarity of the scales is a a good focus if one wants to see the differences and separations at a given time but focussing on the fulcrum will offer a better view of the communion and connection that transcends time. It's an understanding: Which view does one want to stand under now in guiding her/his own personal process? Choice is God-given.

Lou,

Instead of going into a long-winded reply with a bunch of 'boring' details here, let me ask a question to illustrate my overall point - if we were to start with the 'view of balance' or 'communion and connection that transcends time', with the formulation of both sitting at the fulcrum AND continuing to evolve with the times, what is the next step for deeper understanding of these individualities-teachings and their critical roles in our spiritual evolution?
Aloha Ashvin, thanks for the simple question.

Please accept my standard caveat that I'm not a philosopher, saint, sage or spiritual teacher. My only claim to bits of wisdom is a bundle of mistakes. My essential nature has long been to perform as a storyteller. The fulcrum experience I've had is a 'peace beyond understanding'. I have regularly left that silent tranquility when my heart is captured by the possibility of helping to reduce the suffering beyond my individual experiences. I'm learning gradually how to meld movement and repose, action and peace. Times change. I passed through various activisms aimed at reducing suffering: personal individuation and growth, social justice, peace movement, environmental conservation, religious freedom, charity for souls and, most recently, reducing the fear of dying in a death phobic culture. My next step is always to be here now learning and doing the best I can. I recently had my 85th birthday, which turned out to be (despite my hospice condition) the best experience of my life. Leading up to it, I completed a very short poem:

JOURNEY OF HEART

Going, still going
With more to come
Beyond the beyond
New horizons abound.

Like a child with
Nothing to mend

Nothing to defend
Going on without end.

From wonder to wonder
Awake
So be it

Amen.


Best to you and blessings on your own good works.

lou
Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love
lorenzop
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Re: A Polar Comparison of the Buddha and the Christ

Post by lorenzop »

I am not a theologian . . . but it appears Christ and Buddha suggested different paths, but I don't think it's worthy of a 'polar comparison'.
A major difference is that if it was revealed the Buddha never actually existed, Buddhism as a practice would not change.
If it was revealed that Christ never actually lived, then Christianity would collapse as Christianity is based on believing the actual words of Jesus, and the good news those specific words imparted. Also it's significant that Jesus died for the sins of believers . . . and . . . no resurrection no Christianity.
---
Christianity is based on devotion to Christ and Gospels.
Buddhism is based on self-realization thru various means . . . not including devotion to Buddha.
--
A really big difference-> Christianity suggests awakening and fulfillment occurs after death, while Buddhism suggests awakening and fulfillment occurs during our living years, and Buddhism provides guideposts to evaluate one's progress.
--
However there are so many sects and versions of each religion it's really difficult to list specific differences and commonalities.
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Re: A Polar Comparison of the Buddha and the Christ

Post by lorenzop »

Here is a comparison from ChatGPT

Christ and Buddha are two religious figures who have influenced millions of people around the world with their teachings. While there are some similarities in their messages, there are also some notable differences. Here are some of the key differences between the messages of Christ and Buddha:

Approach to God: Christ taught that God is a personal being who loves and cares for each individual person. He emphasized the importance of a personal relationship with God and encouraged his followers to pray to God for guidance and help. Buddha, on the other hand, did not teach the existence of a personal God. He believed that enlightenment comes from within oneself and that it is possible to achieve it through meditation and self-discipline.

Views on the afterlife: Christ taught that there is a heaven and a hell, and that one's ultimate destiny depends on whether they accept or reject God's offer of salvation. Buddha did not focus on the afterlife, but instead emphasized the importance of living a virtuous life in the present.

Focus on love and compassion: Christ taught that love and compassion are central to living a fulfilling and meaningful life. He taught his followers to love one another, to forgive others, and to care for the poor and marginalized. Buddha also emphasized compassion, but his teachings focused more on cultivating a sense of detachment and equanimity towards all living beings.

Role of suffering: Christ taught that suffering is an inevitable part of life, but that it can be overcome through faith in God and the promise of eternal life. Buddha taught that suffering is caused by attachment and desire, and that it is possible to overcome it through mindfulness and the cultivation of wisdom.

Relationship to the world: Christ taught that his followers should be in the world but not of the world, and that their ultimate allegiance should be to God. Buddha taught that the world is characterized by impermanence and suffering, and that it is important to cultivate a sense of detachment from it.

In summary, while there are some similarities in the teachings of Christ and Buddha, there are also some significant differences in their approaches to God, the afterlife, love and compassion, the role of suffering, and the relationship to the world.
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Lou Gold
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Re: A Polar Comparison of the Buddha and the Christ

Post by Lou Gold »

For a greater emphasis on similarities than differences one might check out the most popular book of Thich Nhat Hanh >>> LIVING BUDDHA, LIVING CHRIST

As seems true with most major scriptures, much depends on what one is looking for.

Thay says:

"Twenty years ago at a conference I attended of theologians and professors of religion, an Indian Christian friend told the assembly, "We are going to hear about the beauties of several traditions, but that does not mean that we are going to make a fruit salad." When it came my turn to speak, I said, "Fruit salad can be delicious! I have shared the Eucharist with Father Daniel Berrigan, and our worship became possible because of the sufferings we Vietnamese and Americans shared over many years." Some of the Buddhists present were shocked to hear I had participated in the Eucharist, and many Christians seemed truly horrified. To me, religious life is life. I do not see any reason to spend one's whole life tasting one kind of fruit. We human beings can be nourished by the best values of many traditions.

Just as a flower is made only of non-flower elements, Buddhism is made only of non-Buddhist elements, including Christian ones, and Christianity is made of non-Christian elements, including Buddhist ones. We have different roots, traditions, and ways of seeing, but we share the common qualities of love, understanding, and acceptance. For our dialogue to be open, we need to open our hearts, set aside our prejudices, listen deeply, and represent truthfully what we know and understand. To do this, we need a certain amount of faith. In Buddhism, faith means confidence in our and others' ability to wake up to our deepest capacity of loving and understanding. In Christianity, faith means trust in God, the One who represents love, understanding, dignity, and truth. When we are still, looking deeply, and touching the source of our true wisdom, we touch the living Buddha and the living Christ in ourselves and in each person we meet.

In this small book, I shall try to share some of my experiences of and insights into two of the world's beautiful flowers, Buddhism and Christianity, so that we as a society can begin to dissolve our wrong perceptions, transcend our wrong views, and see one another in fresh, new ways. If we can enter the twenty-first century with this spirit of mutual understanding and acceptance, our children and their children will surely benefit."
Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love
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Federica
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Re: A Polar Comparison of the Buddha and the Christ

Post by Federica »

Eugene,

In the Steiner Archive, I liked this short intro by Thomas Poplawski to the lecture series on Luci-fer, the bearer of light, and Ahriman. I thought about you while reading it (the indigo notes are mine of course):

Poplawski wrote:THE INFLUENCES OF LUCIFER AND AHRIMAN

GA 191 - Introduction

Human beings are dwellers in two worlds. Our uniqueness amongst the creatures of the earth lies in this role that we have as half beast and half angel. A dynamic tension exists because of the contrary demands which living in each of these realms places on us. We experience this on a daily basis, an internal tug-of-war, pulling first in one direction, then to the opposite pole. Whenever we are called upon to make a choice, a decision, the earthly egoic and the heavenly draw us one way or the other and often both at once!

A long held view has been that, of course, one should always give way to the heavenly or spiritual; the alternative is to succumb to the earthly, the fallen, to evil. The struggle has been portrayed as white versus black, as good versus evil. The enduring legacy of this attitude has been to deem the earthly, the bodily nature of the human being as soiled, unclean, corrupt, shameful. With this view the spiritual aspirant of the past had no choice but to reject the body, the earth. In India incarnating into a physical body has long been considered a curse, you also feel this way! the entering into the “veil of tears” which constitutes life.

The physical body was especially singled out for punishment, to be starved and tortured, purged and scourged. St. Francis derided his body as his “donkey,” but reluctantly acknowledged that he must give it some care if it was to continue carrying him about. The medieval Cathars saw the human body as a pit into which the devil had lured the souls of weakened angels. Procreation was thus looked upon with horror as an act of unwitting cruelty — each new birth dragged a heavenly soul into the fallen world of matter the realm of the Demiurge, bringing another diabolically corrupt angel into the flesh. Even to study the physical body too closely was suspect, hence Leonardo's need for secrecy in dissection of corpses. The accumulation of an inordinate amount of the material realm in the form of wealth has also been rather suspect.

Such views have persisted on varying levels into modern times, and not just amongst the puritanical or the late Victorian. Sigmund Freud had difficulty, as a scientist, in acknowledging an angelic side in his patients. He reframed the conflict as one involving human bodily nature and the probably superstitious religious and moral beliefs they maintain. This wrestling match between the instinctual id and the moralistic superego was refereed by the central ego.

Later psychologists have continued to use this framework of two opposing forces moderated by the central force of an ego (though they all interpret the ego somewhat differently). Gestalt psychologists very pragmatically focus on how an individual becomes caught in this struggle between the two poles, without worrying about the relative merits of either pole — what is important is to get the individual “unstuck,” to empower the central ego to again be able to choose, to act more decisively through becoming conscious of its dilemma. The Italian psychiatrist, Robert Assagioli, wrote of the pull between the lower and higher unconscious, once again recognizing an earth/heaven dichotomy. He developed a therapy that sought a “psychosynthesis” of the two opposing forces, paving the way for the discovery of one's unifying center. Similarly, Carl Jung described the marriage of Eros and Logos within the soul, with the sometimes alchemical participation of the ego.

Some of these more spiritually inclined psychologists share with Rudolf Steiner the recognition that it is a synthesis of the two poles and not the choosing of one over the other that frees us for self-development. Humanity has both an earthly and a heavenly mission, tasks in the outer world as well as the inner, necessitating an acceptance, an embracing of both our natures. This sounds somewhat flattened to me, but can't be said to be wrong!

In examining this predicament of living in two worlds, Rudolf Steiner, by virtue of his capacity for spiritual research, went much further than previous researchers. Steiner was able not merely to speak of opposing psychological forces, but to relate these specifically to the influence of mighty spiritual beings, Lucifer and Ahriman. The influence of these beings is not to be thought of as limited to the realm of the soul but rather taken in the widest context as encompassing human evolution, history, and almost every aspect of our existence.

The name Lucifer comes from the Latin meaning “bearer of the Light.” Check out this different from your own understanding of Lucifer! One's childhood picture of Lucifer as a slithering manifestation of evil is difficult to reconcile with the beauty of this name. Lucifer, however, represents a force that paradoxically can combine beauty and if you will, beauty gone too far, to the extreme of decadence, hence to evil.

In the Greek legend, Icarus and his father Daedalus escape from the tower of their island prison with wings fashioned of wax. Despite his father's warning, Icarus becomes enamored of his newfound power and of the beauty of the Sun; he flies up to the light (and heat), his wings melt, and he falls to his death. The wiser and more restrained Daedalus keeps his flight balanced between heaven and earth, thus succeeding in his escape from bondage. The Greeks were very aware of the temptation of Lucifer — in most of their tales of tragedy, “hubris” or overweening pride was the source of a hero's downfall.

In Rudolf Steiner's sculpture, the Representative of Humanity, Lucifer is portrayed as an exceedingly handsome and powerful winged form. Despite his having fallen from Heaven, he was nevertheless, an angel, a leader of angels. As the Light Bearer he has particular gifts for humankind, especially that of wisdom, the gift he first offered to Adam and Eve. By their eating of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, Lucifer promised that they would “be as gods.” Like Icarus, they were not yet prepared for such a gift and ignoring warnings to the contrary, they accepted it and fell from Paradise. In this example it should be noted that the gift in and of itself is not evil. As in our earlier psychological examples, neither the heavenly nor the earthly is of itself to be seen as either absolutely desirable or absolutely forbidden (again this flattened vision, but it's ok, let's go on). The beings of the polarities actually have something of value to offer to humanity. This is very different from the traditional view of the Devil's offerings! However, an individual must be inwardly prepared for the reception of these gifts if they are to be of any value. The hallucinogenic drug user is open to receiving Luciferic light and often feels quite wise when in the midst of the drug experience. Without the meditative discipline of the serious student of the spirit, however, the contact with those realms is rarely beneficial and, in fact, is often quite harmful. let's disregard this drug aside!

In this century, society has especially interested itself in the material. Partially in response to the excessive rejection of the earth and the body, and of the authoritarianism which maintained this position, we have now fully entered the realm of matter, with head, heart, and soul. Whereas in former times humankind was more dreamy in its consciousness and thus more prone to the Luciferic realm of fantasy, illusion, and superstitious thinking, modern consciousness tends to the concrete, to materialism. The belief only in what can be ascertained by the physical senses (and the instruments which extend those senses) binds us to the earth and to the influence of the being named Ahriman. here you can see how much more sense it all makes when these tendencies, or polarities, are understood as ingrained in the various stages of evolution of human consciousness, rather than as abstract, forever existing, and binary evil. In this way we get these tendencies closer, we understand them from within, we integrate them, and become ready to turn them inside out

Aingra Mainu, or Ahriman, was first spoken of in the Zoroastrianism of ancient Persia. He was the evil god, the lord of lies who tempted men and women to believe that they were solely earthly beings. At a time in history when the clairvoyance which had once been common was becoming rare, the ethical teachings of Zarathustra sought to remind the people of their divine origin and to teach through the revelation he had received of the Lord of the Sun, Ahura Mazda.

The influence of Ahriman has grown through the centuries, quietly gaining respectability in the age of the Renaissance and flourishing in our own century as the predominant worldview. Only in the last years has there been any serious questioning of the notion that the only reality is the physical one. For the most part the realm of soul and spirit has been dismissed. The prevailing scientific view has been that only what can be weighed, measured, or quantified should merit serious attention. Ahriman has welcomed statistics as his handmaid.

At the beginning of the century, the Russian philosopher, Vladimir Soloviev, warned of this danger in his “A Short Narrative about Anti-Christ.” In this fictional essay Soloviev described the appearance of a great individual who taught world peace and became first the World Leader, and later the reuniter of the world's religions. He is a vegetarian and anti-vivisectionist and brings great material prosperity and physical comfort to all who acknowledge his authority, all of this without effort on the people's part. The world becomes peaceful, even docile, for the minor sacrifice of individuality and freedom.

The influence of Ahriman is seen in the generous gifts that he has bestowed on humankind in the past centuries and for which we must feel very grateful. All of the technological marvels which science has made possible have given many of us relative freedom from all manner of drudgery while maintaining a high standard of living, freeing us to pursue other interests, giving us more time ... or do we have more time? The great difficulty with our acceptance of Ahriman's bounty has been our relative blindness and lack of foresight as we have lost ourselves in its enjoyment. The birth of the ecology movement and discussion of the reductionist nature of science has wakened some consciousness of the danger into which we have strayed. Some awareness has arisen as to what we are sacrificing in the Faustian bargain which society has struck, a sacrifice which involves our very humanity.

Through Darwin's theory of evolution as well as through Freud's positing of the sexual as the primary motive of humankind, the idea that we are no more than “naked apes” has become quite accepted. To this instinctual or animalistic picture of the human, science has added the model of the human being as machine, with the brain as computer. With such a confining definition of humanity, is it any wonder that we have increasingly come to act and to see ourselves as just machines, or just animals?

The challenge for the individual is often not how to face either Ahriman or Lucifer, but how not to be torn asunder in the encounter with both forces. In T.S. Eliot's play, Murder in the Cathedral, the Archbishop of Canterbury, Thomas a Becket, is conducted to an examination of himself and his past by a succession of four Tempters. The first three attempt to win him with the Ahrimanic enticements of pleasures of the senses, good fellowship, and temporal power for himself and for his Church. Becket turns away from these three only to be approached by a fourth Tempter, clad like himself as a priest and tonsured. The Luciferic temptation now offered is the most dangerous and difficult for Becket, the whisper of spiritual pride — to die in order to attain immortality on earth, to envisage the saint's tomb being visited by pilgrims for centuries, to stand high within the ranks in heaven. Only with difficulty does Becket turn away from these “higher vices.”

In Rudolf Steiner's sculpture, a strong figure stands with one clenched hand upraised to the beautiful Lucifer, the other hand stretched downward to the twisted and sclerotic Ahriman. The Representative of Humanity stands heroically, holding at bay and in balance the two opposing forces, centered within the “Third Force,” that force which we recognize in ourselves in the word ‘I’.

In this series of lectures, Rudolf Steiner strives to deepen our understanding of the two opposing forces, to alert us especially to the dangers of Ahriman, whose wiles have lulled us into a soporific state. The intent, however, is not to drive us to obsession over Luciferic or Ahrimanic demons, but rather to remind us, to reawaken us to our true center. In the words of Henry David Thoreau, “We must learn to reawaken and keep ourselves awake, not by mechanical means, but by an infinite expectation of the dawn, which does not forsake us even in our soundest sleep.” We recognize that dawn in the figure of the risen Christ who stands for all of us as the “Representative of Humanity” in the modern struggle for the kernel or fulcrum of our being.
In this epoch we have to be fighters for the spirit: man must realise what his powers can give way to, unless they are kept constantly under control for the conquest of the spiritual world. In this fifth epoch, man is entitled to his freedom to the highest degree! He has to go through that.
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Cleric K
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Re: A Polar Comparison of the Buddha and the Christ

Post by Cleric K »

I agree that 'polarity' may be misleading if taken in a static sense (as a kind of opposition Christ vs. Buddha). But as always, all we have to do is consider the fact that we're going through an evolutionary process and each new impulse is supposed to bring a new level of unfolding for the Spirit that works and expresses through Man.

As explained so many times, these things will be unsolvable if they remain simply religions that prescribe certain practices and rules in order to ensure certain kind of afterlife. If we see things in this way we have the duality of non-duality. We have the Earthly existence, where there are all kinds of paths that all lead to the same thing after death, so the path is a matter of personal preference.

It's so very clear. We can't help but grasp the major mood in the Buddha impulse which seeks the individual liberation and helping others along the way. Yet the Earth remains that arena, existing for unclear reasons, that we have to overcome. There's no talk about liberation by the spiritualization of the World and society but only be overcoming the World. All of this has its proper role in the evolutionary process. It was meant to differentiate the Earthly self - the web of entanglement with bodily life from the higher spiritual being that purifies and perfects itself, practically becoming master over the flesh.

This is not negated by the Christ impulse but is led further. The higher spiritual being enters and infuses the Earthly spectrum and with this begins its redemption. This can be achieved only through the power of Love, which is not something that we can make out of our separate self but flows from the Source of Being.

To use Eugene's metaphor, it was part of development that human souls had to feel the Earthly spectrum as a kind of quarantine zone that we have to overcome. It's simply that the soul didn't yet have the maturation to concern itself with the zone itself. That's why ascetism was also acceptable path in the past.

Through the Love impulse new currents enter the spiritual life of humanity. Think of it as the changes which happen, for example, in puberty or something like that. There are completely new forces that inflow our experience, which can't be grasped if we look on the Earthly spectrum as some independent zone which temporarily parts us from our true life up there. It can only be grasped by finding the Spirit that works in everything in the world.

It is clear that this is not simply jumping from one extreme to the other but a reversal that builds on top of the previous stage. Now we have to work not only on our own purification but we have to also understand how the spiritual world manifests as the perceptible world. Without this, there's no conceivable way in which the reconciliation of the duality of non-duality can even begin to be addressed. Only through the higher impulse of Love, which evolutionarily succeeds that of compassion, we can have the strength to seek the Spirit not only within our own soul and our individual stream of becoming but also in the whole world (please note, there's difference by being generally aware of the Spirit being present everywhere and seeking the new consciousness through which we co-experience how this Spirit is creatively active everywhere, including everything in the Earthly spectrum). Only through Love we can feel that we have no existence apart from that of the World's becoming. Thus we have responsibility not only for our individual liberation and compassionately helping others along the way but beginning to understand the 'architecture' of the dreamscape as a whole and putting to use what we have attained through the Buddha impulse in service for the great Cosmic work.

I believe it's very clear that the Buddha impulse alone can never lead us into the spiritual reality of the World while we're still in the Earthly form. This is simply not its focus. Yet it was needed at the time that we had to differentiate ourselves from the World. But this was only in order to gain the inner stability, to know our true nature, such that we can later find how the true Divine nature works even in the tiniest details of the World. This is a new evolutionary step. As always, these things only look as opposition if we have no feeling for the evolution of World Process. Otherwise we see the Earth as an independent sandbox, filled with parallel teachings that are all 'right' because they all point to the same One place beyond it.
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Federica
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Re: A Polar Comparison of the Buddha and the Christ

Post by Federica »

AshvinP wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 7:56 pm Federica,

Yes, the real value for our understanding does reside in the what and the how, which is a never-ending spiritual scientific investigation in which the subject conducting the investigation (us) and the object of the investigation (the world) are continually transformed and brought into closer unity. Our entire lives really become the process of investigation. We aren't going to make much progress into such an investigation with only this forum or my posts - mostly I use this opportunity to approach the basic principles at work from various angles. If we really want to delve into the inner workings of what the MoG accomplished and how, for ex., we need to go into details which simply won't make any sense for most people following. Well, they are already not making sense for most people so what are these scruples :) I probably get too ambitious here with Steiner's quotes as it is, and even those barely scratch the surface. This is FOMO triggering :)
[please note these are light-hearted comments]


We can say there is only One Polarity in the abstract (whatever we want to label it), and every other polarity is just a manifestation of that One, viewing it from slightly different angles. That is a perfectly valid statement. It's like saying every analogy/metaphor in the normal conceptual-perceptual spectrum is a way of relating various visible or detectable physical phenomena to the same invisible spiritual forces which structure them. Nevertheless we continue to approach those same spiritual forces with differentiated metaphors because it helps mold the flesh around our intuitive orientation to those forces. The world mythologies and scriptures do a similar thing with all the various images, comparisons, parables, etc. they offer us. Yes, of course...
1 Peter 1 wrote:And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

I think the liability-asset angle on the polar relation is very helpful because it highlights how all those things we generally consider evil, negative, or otherwise chaining us to the Earthly realm, weighing us down or hanging over our head like the sword of Damocles, has been redeemed through the blood of Christ. Through that deed, we can become more livingly conscious of our own participation in the Earthly progression from Spirit to Matter, which then allows for Matter to return to Spirit. The collective and individual souls of humanity have always been mediating between these poles, helping to transform one to the other and back in a rhythmic progression. That is true even before the incarnational cycle began. All the Earthly kingdoms were laid down by the impulses of higher beings, led by the Christ-being, working through our spiritual activity. In other words, all the Earthly soul, life, and physical substances-processes we now possess embed this activity and give us the opportunity to extract the capacities, skills, and lessons we need from them to inherit our Divinity.

Otherwise we may temporarily suppress our entanglement with them and reduce suffering, but we will repeat experiences born of the same conditioning in subsequent incarnations until we extract the lessons. Unfortunately I see this repetitive cycle happen often with my clients - some of them make bankruptcy a regular staple of their diet every 4 or 8 years because they fail to extract any pedagogical value from their financial mistakes and misfortunes. Sometimes it seems like it doesn't occur to them that such a learning curve is even a possibility. Yet the rest of us aren't necessarily so much better off in the context of repeated Earthly incarnations - it all depends on what living desires, feelings and thoughts we approach our life experiences with. If we approach them only with personal feelings and dead thoughts, then we won't make much progress with our balance sheet between this incarnation and the next one.

So the Earthly involution happened instinctively through us, without any self-awareness and therefore without any free choice in the matter. When the incarnate "I" fully awakened on the physical plane through the MoG, we gained the potential to work our way back into consciousness of what we already did, or what we are already doing within the higher spiritual strata of Time-potential. That is how the liabilities (Karmic conditioning) become assets (holistic knowledge and feedback) for liberating our Spirit within so we can become more and more creatively responsible towards our fellow Earthly beings and inherit our Divinity.

Federica wrote:But overall I don't find an answer in your reply. What I was wondering is - if it's not too personal a question - what is your inner process that sparked the idea of polarity between Christ and Buddha? I am sure there is much to learn from the process that led you there, even if I can’t understand it now, and that’s all I tried to express in the initial post.

I would say the idea of the polar comparison between Buddha and Christ was sparked simply from reading Steiner's lecture. Although he doesn't use the word 'polarity' in that particular lecture (he speaks of it at great length elsewhere, though), everything in that lecture seemed to be pointing to exactly that concept of a polar relation. The 600BC-600AD time period is suggestive of that, but also many of the other details. More generally, when it is spoken of "opposites" and "reversals", I think this pretty much means polar opposites and reversals. "Never has there been a more momentous reversal in the entire evolution of the human race."

Also, I think some of the confusion comes from my title, which wasn't thought out enough. It really isn't a polar comparison between Buddha and Christ as individualities, but between the Buddha teachings around 600 BC and the Christ teachings around 600 AD. And these weren't simply intellectual teachings as we know them today, but heavily imbued with feeling, as Steiner indicates. Now we are in a position to recover those archetypal feelings but also with the clarity of the intellect. "Now that we have done this, let us immediately consider the time six hundred years after the Mystery of Golgotha, when countless souls and eyes turned to the cross on which a corpse was hanging. It is from this corpse that the impulses emanated that spiritualized life and signaled the glad tidings that death can be conquered by life. That, then, is the exact opposite of what Buddha felt when he saw a dead body."


Ok, now I’m serious again. I still feel the liability-asset metaphor for polarity is a very general one, moreover not as fruitful as your insightful introduction to this thread, and with the additional negative that it could keep one stuck in the polarized idea that one pole is bad (just as liabilities are bad) and the other one is good.

Ashvin wrote:I think the liability-asset angle on the polar relation is very helpful because it highlights how all those things we generally consider evil, negative, or otherwise chaining us to the Earthly realm, weighing us down or hanging over our head like the sword of Damocles, has been redeemed through the blood of Christ.

Yeah, the point is exactly this: I don’t think it highlights that redemption. What it says is simply “let’s switch positions for a while and see that liabilities can become assets”. To be honest (and also a little provocative, of course) this reminds me of the self-proclaimed feminists (men and women) whom I’m seeing a lot of, who basically state that everything suppressing that’s been done to women’s disadvantage is now OK to reinstate to men’s disadvantage. They say “what we most strongly want to oppose is actually in itself only fair, as long as it is reoriented in its target. Let’s enforce a switch of positions for a while”. Obviously in so doing they are keeping alive the very essence of the problem, that is to say a polarized (in this case gender-polarized) approach. Similarly, the liability-asset approach - on top of not being anywhere specific to the polarities of human evolution which are in question in this thread - is also maintaining the focus on the extremes. It says that what appears as liability can actually be transmuted into asset, without providing any insights of redemption, I would argue. Because in a balance sheet there’s no real transmutation, there’s no redemption. There is only a matching of opposites (liabilities and assets) that ends up not in a higher-level resolution, or redemption, but in a gap (profit or loss) that remains in itself polarized, like literally - there is still a plus or a minus sign characterizing the final result of a balance sheet, be it a profit or a loss. So this metaphor presents a same-level game that is not elevating, as I feel it. Keeping in mind the otherwise mind-boggling level of insight usually present in your illustrations, I can only make sense of this one in some of the following ways:

- You were trying not to be too ambitious (in the sense you have referred to above)
- You were trying to guard against the risk that one would interpret your words as diminishing of the Buddhist teachings
- You were having your clients too much top of mind


Ashvin wrote: I would say the idea of the polar comparison between Buddha and Christ was sparked simply from reading Steiner's lecture.

I will reply to this in a separate post.
In this epoch we have to be fighters for the spirit: man must realise what his powers can give way to, unless they are kept constantly under control for the conquest of the spiritual world. In this fifth epoch, man is entitled to his freedom to the highest degree! He has to go through that.
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Re: A Polar Comparison of the Buddha and the Christ

Post by AshvinP »

Federica wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 9:34 am Eugene,

In the Steiner Archive, I liked this short intro by Thomas Poplawski to the lecture series on Luci-fer, the bearer of light, and Ahriman. I thought about you while reading it (the indigo notes are mine of course):

That is a great synopsis of these polar influences, Federica, thanks for sharing it with your notes.

I want to also share something I came across recently as well, which speaks to how we can practically orient ourselves towards balancing these influences on a modern path of spiritual development. Much of it is already found in Steiner's HTKHW, but I found the following very well written/explained and it never hurts to refresh ourselves.

Max Heindel (emphasis not mine) wrote:The spiritual sight of which we speak is not to be confused with clairvoyance developed in spiritualistic circles. The latter depends upon a negative state of mind where the inner worlds are reflected in the consciousness of the sitters, as the surrounding landscape is reflected in a mirror. Such a method gives SIGHT, but INSIGHT concerning the thing seen is lacking in the negative clairvoyant as much as in the mirror. He is in a position similar to that of a man tied on a horse without rein or bridle, who is carried wheresoever the horse pleases. Such a faculty is a curse. The properly trained clairvoyant is not tied; he can get on or off as he pleases, has rein and bridle on his horse; he is master, the other a slave.

Certain negative phases of clairvoyance are also developed by taking drugs, by crystal gazing, etc. In all such cases the faculty is a danger and a detriment, being uncontrolled by the Spirit. Drugs have a fearfully destructive effect on the different vehicles of man. But the most dangerous method of development is indiscriminate breathing exercises. Many a man is in the insane asylum today or his body lies in a consumptive's grave, on account of having practiced breathing exercises in development classes, taught by persons as ignorant as himself. Breathing exercises, when necessary, are NEVER GIVEN IN CLASSES, as each pupil is differently constituted from every one else; each consequently needs INDIVIDUAL exercises, and different mental exercises also to accompany them. Only through individual instruction from a competent teacher can spiritual sight and insight be developed in perfect safety. The foregoing remarks apply only to breathing exercises for occult development and not to exercises for physical culture, which are excellent when practiced in moderation.

DISCRIMINATION is the faculty whereby we distinguish that which is unimportant and unessential, separating the real from illusion, and the lasting from the evanescent. In ordinary life we are accustomed to think of the body as ourselves. Discrimination teaches that WE ARE SPIRITS and our bodies are but temporary dwelling places, instruments for use. The carpenter uses hammer and saw; they are important instruments but he does not think of himself as being either. Neither should we identify ourselves with our bodies, but learn to discriminate, to regard the body as a servant, valuable only in so far as obedient to our commands. When thus regarded, we shall find that we can readily make it do many things hitherto thought impossible. Discrimination generates the INTELLECTUAL SOUL, and gives man his first start toward the higher life.

OBSERVATION is the use of the senses as means of obtaining information regarding the phenomena around us. Observation and action generate the CONSCIOUS SOUL. It is of the highest importance to our development that we observe the sights and scenes around us ACCURATELY, otherwise the pictures in our conscious memory do not coincide with the automatic subconscious records. The rhythm and harmony of the dense body is disturbed in proportion to the inaccuracy of our observation during the day. Our activities during sleep partially restore harmony, but the warring vibrations from day to day and year to year are one of the causes which gradually harden and destroy our organism until it becomes unfit for the use of the spirit and must be abandoned to give the Spirit another opportunity for growth in a new and better body. In proportion as we learn to observe accurately we shall gain in health and longevity, and WE SHALL NEED LESS REST AND SLEEP. The latter is an important point in the present discussion, as will presently appear.

DEVOTION to high ideals is a curb on the animal instincts, and generates and evolves the EMOTIONAL SOUL. Cultivation of the faculty of devotion is very essential. In some people this is the line of least resistance, and they are apt to become mystic dreamers. The energies of the desire body are then expressed as enthusiasm and religious ecstasy. There are also some people who develop abnormally the faculty of discrimination, which leads along cold intellectual lines of metaphysical speculation. In either case thee is a lack of balance, a danger. The mystic dreamer, because DOMINATED by emotion, may become subject to all sorts of illusion. That, the intellectual occultist will never do, but he may end in black magic if he pursues the path of knowledge for the sake of knowledge and not for SERVICE. The only safe way is to develop both head and heart.

The OCCULTIST unfolds along intellectual lines; he searches for truth by observation, and discrimination. He observes and reasons upon what he sees. Thus he attains to knowledge, but as Paul says, "knowledge puffeth up but love edifieth," and before his knowledge can be of the highest use in spiritual unfoldment, he must learn to FEEL IT else he cannot LIVE it. When he has done that he is both mystic and occultist.

The MYSTIC develops particularly the faculty of devotion. He FEELS TRUTH without necessity of reasoning. He KNOWS, but cannot give a reason for his faith or explain to others so as to help them. He must develop the intellectual side of his nature, to be of the highest use in the upliftment of humanity. Then intellect acts as a curb on the emotions and devotion safely guides the intellect. If we go along one line or the other exclusively, we shall have to take up the other at some future time in order to become fully rounded. It is better, therefore, to try to develop NOW the faculty we lack. Thus we shall make the most rapid progress toward the final goal with perfect safety.

The clarity and sharpness of a photograph depend upon the way the lens is focused by the photographer. Once set, it remains in focus. If it had life and a will of its own, if it could change its direction and focus, the pictures would become blurred. The mind is in about that position; it flits about aimlessly, literally in a mental St. Vitus' dance, and resents a curb most strenuously. But it can and must be tamed, and PERSISTENCE is the chief means of bridling it. In proportion as the mind is stilled, the spirit can reflect itself in the threefold body, on the principle that the sun mirrors itself in a calm sea, but turbulent billows deflect the sun rays.

The vital body is like a mirror or, rather, like the film of a moving picture; it pictures alike the world without according to our faculty of OBSERVATION, and the ideas of the indwelling spirit from within according to the clarity and training of the mind. DEVOTION and DISCRIMINATION, otherwise emotion and intellect, decide our attitude toward these pictures, and their balanced action leads to a well rounded development. When evolved to a certain point they inevitably bring about a process of PURIFICATION. The man will realize that in order to attain the goal he must lay aside whatever clogs the wheels of progress. A good mechanic aims to have the best tools and keep them in perfect order, for he knows their value in producing good work. Our bodies are tools of the Spirit, and in proportion as they are clogged they hinder its manifestation. DISCRIMINATION teaches us what hinders, and DEVOTION to the higher life helps to eliminate undesirable habits or traits of character by superseding mere desire.

Flesh food, obtained at the cost of a fellow creature's life and suffering, and imbued with its desires and passions, besides being in a state of decay, is not a pure food, and no earnest aspirant to higher powers would choose to feed his body upon such offal. He will study how to satisfy the needs of his body with pure food. He realizes the importance of keeping his brain clear that his waking consciousness may be thoroughly open to spiritual influence, hence he will cease to use tobacco and alcohol which stimulate the brain and then leave it deadened. Moderation is a misnomer in regard to drink; all use of alcohol is excess and disastrous to the quest for spiritual attainment.

Loss of temper is subversive of inner growth; it is dissipation on a large scale of energy which may be profitably used; it poisons the body, wrecks it, and enormously hinders attainment.

Likewise do thoughts of criticism hurt us, and the aspirant will abstain from them as much as possible. Discrimination teaches us IN AN IMPERSONAL WAY what is good and evil, but GIVES US NO FEELING about it, and THAT IS THE IMPORTANT POINT. Examination of a fact, idea, or object, and a decision respecting its worth is necessary and not to be shunned, but harsh thoughts should be avoided for they form arrow-like thought forms, and as they pass outward from us they pierce and obstruct the inflow of good thoughts constantly radiated by the Elder Brothers and attracted by all good men.

Two specific exercises are given the aspirant on the path of preparation. Both lead to a development of spiritual sight and insight. One leads the direct way and will appeal most to the intellectual Occultist, but is of great value to thy Mystic, because it develops the faculty he lacks most, namely, reason. The exercise is called CONCENTRATION, which produces "thought power." The other brings a similar result in a roundabout manner. It appeals most to the Mystic, but is of prime necessity to the intellectual Occultist, because it supplies a FEELING FOR TRUTH, which is BEYOND REASON. That exercise is RETROSPECTION, which develops "power of devotion." Both are necessary to secure a thoroughly rounded development.

The philosophy of the attainment of spiritual sight and insight is to compel the desire body to perform the same work INSIDE the dense body WHILE WE ARE FULLY AWAKE, POSITIVE, and conscious as it does OUTSIDE in sleep and in the post-mortem state.
"A secret law contrives,
To give time symmetry:
There is, within our lives,
An exact mystery."
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Re: A Polar Comparison of the Buddha and the Christ

Post by Federica »

Federica wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 12:36 pm
AshvinP wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 7:56 pm Federica,

Yes, the real value for our understanding does reside in the what and the how, which is a never-ending spiritual scientific investigation in which the subject conducting the investigation (us) and the object of the investigation (the world) are continually transformed and brought into closer unity. Our entire lives really become the process of investigation. We aren't going to make much progress into such an investigation with only this forum or my posts - mostly I use this opportunity to approach the basic principles at work from various angles. If we really want to delve into the inner workings of what the MoG accomplished and how, for ex., we need to go into details which simply won't make any sense for most people following. Well, they are already not making sense for most people so what are these scruples :) I probably get too ambitious here with Steiner's quotes as it is, and even those barely scratch the surface. This is FOMO triggering :)
[please note these are light-hearted comments]


We can say there is only One Polarity in the abstract (whatever we want to label it), and every other polarity is just a manifestation of that One, viewing it from slightly different angles. That is a perfectly valid statement. It's like saying every analogy/metaphor in the normal conceptual-perceptual spectrum is a way of relating various visible or detectable physical phenomena to the same invisible spiritual forces which structure them. Nevertheless we continue to approach those same spiritual forces with differentiated metaphors because it helps mold the flesh around our intuitive orientation to those forces. The world mythologies and scriptures do a similar thing with all the various images, comparisons, parables, etc. they offer us. Yes, of course...
1 Peter 1 wrote:And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

I think the liability-asset angle on the polar relation is very helpful because it highlights how all those things we generally consider evil, negative, or otherwise chaining us to the Earthly realm, weighing us down or hanging over our head like the sword of Damocles, has been redeemed through the blood of Christ. Through that deed, we can become more livingly conscious of our own participation in the Earthly progression from Spirit to Matter, which then allows for Matter to return to Spirit. The collective and individual souls of humanity have always been mediating between these poles, helping to transform one to the other and back in a rhythmic progression. That is true even before the incarnational cycle began. All the Earthly kingdoms were laid down by the impulses of higher beings, led by the Christ-being, working through our spiritual activity. In other words, all the Earthly soul, life, and physical substances-processes we now possess embed this activity and give us the opportunity to extract the capacities, skills, and lessons we need from them to inherit our Divinity.

Otherwise we may temporarily suppress our entanglement with them and reduce suffering, but we will repeat experiences born of the same conditioning in subsequent incarnations until we extract the lessons. Unfortunately I see this repetitive cycle happen often with my clients - some of them make bankruptcy a regular staple of their diet every 4 or 8 years because they fail to extract any pedagogical value from their financial mistakes and misfortunes. Sometimes it seems like it doesn't occur to them that such a learning curve is even a possibility. Yet the rest of us aren't necessarily so much better off in the context of repeated Earthly incarnations - it all depends on what living desires, feelings and thoughts we approach our life experiences with. If we approach them only with personal feelings and dead thoughts, then we won't make much progress with our balance sheet between this incarnation and the next one.

So the Earthly involution happened instinctively through us, without any self-awareness and therefore without any free choice in the matter. When the incarnate "I" fully awakened on the physical plane through the MoG, we gained the potential to work our way back into consciousness of what we already did, or what we are already doing within the higher spiritual strata of Time-potential. That is how the liabilities (Karmic conditioning) become assets (holistic knowledge and feedback) for liberating our Spirit within so we can become more and more creatively responsible towards our fellow Earthly beings and inherit our Divinity.

Federica wrote:But overall I don't find an answer in your reply. What I was wondering is - if it's not too personal a question - what is your inner process that sparked the idea of polarity between Christ and Buddha? I am sure there is much to learn from the process that led you there, even if I can’t understand it now, and that’s all I tried to express in the initial post.

I would say the idea of the polar comparison between Buddha and Christ was sparked simply from reading Steiner's lecture. Although he doesn't use the word 'polarity' in that particular lecture (he speaks of it at great length elsewhere, though), everything in that lecture seemed to be pointing to exactly that concept of a polar relation. The 600BC-600AD time period is suggestive of that, but also many of the other details. More generally, when it is spoken of "opposites" and "reversals", I think this pretty much means polar opposites and reversals. "Never has there been a more momentous reversal in the entire evolution of the human race."

Also, I think some of the confusion comes from my title, which wasn't thought out enough. It really isn't a polar comparison between Buddha and Christ as individualities, but between the Buddha teachings around 600 BC and the Christ teachings around 600 AD. And these weren't simply intellectual teachings as we know them today, but heavily imbued with feeling, as Steiner indicates. Now we are in a position to recover those archetypal feelings but also with the clarity of the intellect. "Now that we have done this, let us immediately consider the time six hundred years after the Mystery of Golgotha, when countless souls and eyes turned to the cross on which a corpse was hanging. It is from this corpse that the impulses emanated that spiritualized life and signaled the glad tidings that death can be conquered by life. That, then, is the exact opposite of what Buddha felt when he saw a dead body."


Ok, now I’m serious again. I still feel the liability-asset metaphor for polarity is a very general one, moreover not as fruitful as your insightful introduction to this thread, and with the additional negative that it could keep one stuck in the polarized idea that one pole is bad (just as liabilities are bad) and the other one is good.

Ashvin wrote:I think the liability-asset angle on the polar relation is very helpful because it highlights how all those things we generally consider evil, negative, or otherwise chaining us to the Earthly realm, weighing us down or hanging over our head like the sword of Damocles, has been redeemed through the blood of Christ.

Yeah, the point is exactly this: I don’t think it highlights that redemption. What it says is simply “let’s switch positions for a while and see that liabilities can become assets”. To be honest (and also a little provocative, of course) this reminds me of the self-proclaimed feminists (men and women) whom I’m seeing a lot of, who basically state that everything suppressing that’s been done to women’s disadvantage is now OK to reinstate to men’s disadvantage. They say “what we most strongly want to oppose is actually in itself only fair, as long as it is reoriented in its target. Let’s enforce a switch of positions for a while”. Obviously in so doing they are keeping alive the very essence of the problem, that is to say a polarized (in this case gender-polarized) approach. Similarly, the liability-asset approach - on top of not being anywhere specific to the polarities of human evolution which are in question in this thread - is also maintaining the focus on the extremes. It says that what appears as liability can actually be transmuted into asset, without providing any insights of redemption, I would argue. Because in a balance sheet there’s no real transmutation, there’s no redemption. There is only a matching of opposites (liabilities and assets) that ends up not in a higher-level resolution, or redemption, but in a gap (profit or loss) that remains in itself polarized, like literally - there is still a plus or a minus sign characterizing the final result of a balance sheet, be it a profit or a loss. So this metaphor presents a same-level game that is not elevating, as I feel it. Keeping in mind the otherwise mind-boggling level of insight usually present in your illustrations, I can only make sense of this one in some of the following ways:

- You were trying not to be too ambitious (in the sense you have referred to above)
- You were trying to guard against the risk that one would interpret your words as diminishing of the Buddhist teachings
- You were having your clients too much top of mind


Ashvin wrote: I would say the idea of the polar comparison between Buddha and Christ was sparked simply from reading Steiner's lecture.

I will reply to this in a separate post.

Ashvin,

I should make clear that the comparison I have made above is an example of polarization based on what I am witnessing these days and I didn't mean to compare you to any similar trends. That was only an example that came to mind of trying to move on but actually remaining stuck in a polarity. And I feel the asset-liability angle is not helpful to get people (such as the ones I have referred to) unstuck.
In this epoch we have to be fighters for the spirit: man must realise what his powers can give way to, unless they are kept constantly under control for the conquest of the spiritual world. In this fifth epoch, man is entitled to his freedom to the highest degree! He has to go through that.
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